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Old 05-26-2006, 05:18 AM   #876
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Roy,

Something like "how to avoid kotegaeshi" and "how to counter rokkyo attempt with mae ukemi"?

That clip is "pure aiki".
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Old 05-26-2006, 08:08 AM   #877
DudSan
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Hi friends.

Aikido works well on real life. I have had some experiences and I will share them here.

One was very funny. A relative was drunkard and he grabbed my wrist strongly, urging me to sit on his legs like if I were a girl. I was surprised and even amused on his blindness. Then I just made a Nikyo BUT without injuring his wrist at all, only to make his hand to slipper. He kept feeling hapy, he didnīt noticed that I had made a technique on him, and I was happy too. No fight.

Another two times were more dramatic. The first time I was drunk, so I donīt remember HOW the problem really started. I only know that I grabbed someone by the head and I twisted his neck, making him falling to the ground. It was all, then my friends took me away from the place. I think that the guy didnīt sufered too much damage, but I didnīt see him after the throw. I left.

In the second one, I was in another party, and a gay (yes, a homosexual) touched me improperly. I applied to him a Irimi, and he did stand up from the floor and attacked me, without any kind of technique. He was obviously untrained. I made to him another throw (a Kokyu I think). And incredibly he rose again and attacked. I made to him a THIRD IRIMI and I thought: 'this jerk wonīt get up'. Man, he did! What a hero! He must have been really drugged. I even felt some pity at this moment, after seeing him three times knocking the floor this way, without training, and charging again and again without the hope of wining. I didnīt like this situation at all. He was not strong, he was very slim in fact, and with a feminoid complexion (he was gay, remember, almost a travesty) therefore I assume Today that his resistance was due to drugs. I was stronger than him, and all my throws were well executed. Honestly I felt like an abuser, and like a real bad Aikidoka, fighting with someone weaker than me due to my ego.

Then I tried a Kote Gaeshi but he grabbed my body and resisted. I couldnīt throw him and I was astonished at his resistance. I donīt remember how the fight ended. I guess that I threw him (another Kokyu if I am not wrong) for a last time and then went away, with him lying on the floor. But I donīt like fights at all, and specially THIS fight is a bad memory. Persons must had looked at me as an abuser in this party. I felt myself a complete abuser too, and Today I am ashamed of what I did. It was totally against the spirit of Aikido. I made the techniques of Aikido well, but I wasnīt and Aikidoka at all when doing this mess. I have even felt sometimes the urge to seek that man and ask him to forgive me for the techniques I applied to him, which were really tough, and he was a slim person. I even sometimes worry if he had some internal injury after this fight. But I donīt know how to find him, and I even fear for the consequences.

Fighting is not a funny thing. If someone wants to learn Aikido for fighting, FORGET IT.

All these experiences were while people were drugging or drinking around me. Best Aikido technique: avoid these places. Not to be there. I wish I would have never been in that party.

The last two times I had problems: once I was having a beer (again!) and a couple of drunkards started an argument against me. One of them was the leading voice, the another guy was just trying to calm the first one. I defused the situation and I turned my back. I could abandon at that time, but my big ego made me to turn my face to him again and telling him something (the big Martial Artist could not leave with humility) so the drunkard reacted with a speed that I found Today to be incredible: He hitted my cheek with his open hand in a move that I couldnīt perceive at all. It was a lightning. Luckily it wasnīt very hard, maybe due to his own drunkenness. But it was fast, at least for me.

Nevertheless, he made a mistake: he let his hand hanging near my face after the punch. So I grabbed his fingers with my both hands and I grounded him (not a special technique). Then I had the thought of kicking his head, but I desisted and I let him there.

The another man didnīt move.

All these fights are bull c r a p. They make persons to waste time. Many people come to martial arts expecting to learn how to fight. Why not trying to learn how NOT to fight? Fighting is the worst idea that a human being can have. If you like fights, you have never fought on real life. I donīt like at all these experiences, and I hope never fighting again, cause I donīt like injuring human beings (and besides one can get injured too).

Only once I did a good physical action. Two young boys were molesting childrens in a park, near the kindergarten of my kid. I requested them for their attitude, and one of them, very athletic, fit, young and sporty, did kick at my head with a beautiful Mae Geri or something like that. By instinct (I naver thought what I was doing) I grabbed his ankle, I twisted his foot to right with a half Tenkan and twisted again his ankle against the left side, breaking his momentum, with a Tenkan Ushiro. He felt down like a sac of potatoes, and stayed on the floor looking at me with incredulous eyes. He didnīt suffered damage, I think, but was surprised. Well, maybe his ankle was resented, but he didnīt groan or complained at all.

Again the another pal stayed with armed crossed. I was lucky.

My experience?

a) Places with alcohol and drugs are BAD.
b) Fighting is ALWAYS bad.
c) Aikido works like every other martial art.
d) One can be surprised by a punch, like it hapened to me.
e) Sometimes techniques donīt work, like the failed Kote Gaeshi I mentioned. Just break the feed back loop and make another thing.
f) Persons can be really resistant under the effect of drugs.
g) Not every fight ends on the floor for both of the parties.

I could keep telling conclussions, but I think is enough.

A Budo blessing
DudSan
PS: Donīt fight, unless with Love and Peace.
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Old 05-26-2006, 08:54 AM   #878
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Hi Douglas,

Thanks for that.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 05-26-2006, 10:51 AM   #879
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Dan Wrote:

Quote:
Kevin, Kevin

I guess the only difference is who's reality you are implying I am out of touch with? I'm a terrible writer.....but I am beginning to think you are an even worse reader I just keep repeating myself.
Why would I imply anything concerning you. I don't know you so it would not be proper for me to assume anything without really knowing you or having never worked with you. So no I am not implying anything at all.

In fact I on several occassion clarify this very point in my post to make sure it is not taken as an implication. For example from my post in #870:

Quote:
Not insinuating that Rob or Dan don't understand this. Just pointing out a current theme I see when people say "well if he did this, i'd do that".
like I have said, I will believe it when I see it and experience it. It is really as simple as that. Keeps my life very simple and easy.
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Old 05-26-2006, 10:52 AM   #880
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Good post Douglas...thanks for sharing.
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Old 05-26-2006, 10:56 AM   #881
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Dan wrote:

Quote:
Anyway, no disrespsect. I like and accept the sceptisism- not the cognative dissonence. At least acknowledge that we are debating the same point; practical utility! Once we get past that, we can debate the means to the end.
Cool. First we need to agree on what practical utility means though! A hard subject to define when talking empty hand. It is a wide field. I agree first we must agree on that. Maybe that is the difference in our view points...don't know.
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Old 05-26-2006, 12:00 PM   #882
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Demetrio,

Yes, exactly! I think it's very aiki also, even if it was "submission grappling."


I'd just like to see a 6' solid 210 pounder hitting a 5' 7"150 pounder and getting planted or bouncing off, just like I've read about. Just like the Gracies knew during the filming of Gracie in Action 1 and 2, that showing is so much more persuasive than talking or writing, at least in this realm.


Roy
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Old 05-26-2006, 12:32 PM   #883
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Roy,

Your clip is something anyone who claims Aikido doesn't work should view.

But, as you say, it's a "subgrappling match": no hakamas, spontaneous environment, "competition", etc. all those things that make "self image based" martial artists to say "that's not Aiki", and also all those things that make "performance based" martial artists to say the "that's not Aiki" too.

Same people, different clothes, but both types looking for external validation of themselves.
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Old 05-26-2006, 12:47 PM   #884
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Roy Dean wrote:
Demetrio,

Yes, exactly! I think it's very aiki also, even if it was "submission grappling."

I'd just like to see a 6' solid 210 pounder hitting a 5' 7"150 pounder and getting planted or bouncing off, just like I've read about. Just like the Gracies knew during the filming of Gracie in Action 1 and 2, that showing is so much more persuasive than talking or writing, at least in this realm.


Roy
My smaller guys have never asked to see a film of themselves to believe what they are doing. I don't think the Gracies needed to see one of themselves either. Training tends to answer questions.

I do suppose that having read about it on the net before actually seeing the Gracies would have caused just as much static.
Having read about it but not having seen systema caused static.
And when E.J Harrison went to Japan and was told about this he said the same.
Then he felt it. And Draeger? And Bluming?

Of course Everyone doubted the skills of Takeda
and then later Ueshiba
All of the above using various levels and methods of internal skills
And everyone who doubted was?.........................Wrong.

What we are talkiing about is older and has an established background. And ...so it goes

Dan
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Old 05-26-2006, 01:03 PM   #885
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Thanks friends. I have this feeling against violence, and I love AIkido precisely because of itīs non violent charachter.

I am just afraid when persons come to Aikido looking for being skilled in fighting. There is no need for that. With time and experience I have came to believe that nothing is more easy than fighting, and that no one needs to train in a martial art 7 years for fighting, because fighting is just pure ANIMAL (no human) instinct arousing from the worst side of our nature. So why worrying so much about being good fighters when instinct will arise anyway and the human being will debase to a lower creature? No need for thoughts at this level, only reflex violence.

So martial arts are not for fight. They are for self improvement. Persons who come to martial arts hoping how to become beter fighters are deluding themselves and missing the real treasure that martial arts are.

But for the persons interested in knowing if Aikido train your reflexes enough as to be capable to react properly on a self defense situation, I say, from my own experience, yes, it does. But too does Karate, Wing Tsun, etc. People can learn Self Defense there. But if they are going to come to Aikidoīs lines, they must come to seek for the Real Essence of our art, which is the Love of God that Ueshiba Sensei felt on his heart, pouring over all creation with a spirit of compassion. A love that can change this world, as O Sensei wanted!

If Morihei Ueshiba only made another aportation to human violence he did nothing remarkable at all. If he gave us a resource for helping to stop violence on earth, he must be remembered with love. And his Path can be followed with loving heart!

Blessings for all
DudSan
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Old 05-26-2006, 01:16 PM   #886
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Douglas,

On a philosophical level I totally agree with you.

On a reality level, There are still some people in the world that want to do harm to us. So there are some practical reasons to study some form of martial arts....maybe not traditional aikido...but martial...yes.

I agree though, martial arts are more about fighthing the enemy within yourself.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
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Old 05-26-2006, 01:47 PM   #887
DudSan
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Smile Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

No, no, no, thanks to you Kevin, for your polite and respectful posts. They reflect the spirit of a real Aikidoka.

Maybe Aikido is a martial art that persons should know after they have already knowledge from other Budo disciplines? I mean: if you know enough from real violence and how to manage it physically (Reality Based Self Defense systems, arts like Muay Thai, etc.), then you can advance a further step and learning how to avoid this same violence peacefully with your very developed martial abilities (Aikido).

I have practiced violent things on the past, and I consider my previous knowledge to be useless and disgusting. What should I use with preference in case of an aggression? Aikido. Less problems. Less harm. To him and to me. I am making here a comparisson, from a practical point of view, between Aikido and very violent combat systems that I have studied on a past. And that I would never use on the street.

But as I practiced other things then this comparisson is possible. Perhaps if I had never practiced anything else, I would feel unsafe now. Maybe other Aikidoists have studied only Aikido, and they consider that they need more than that for the street. I understand them.

Though in the end, after deviating from the Peaceful Way and exploring the ways of destruction, they will always miss the Peace of Aikido and they will come back IF they understood the art. And besides, if they become MASTERS in their art, they will be untouchable, IMHO, without the need of cross training. But it is always easier to train many things that to master perfectly only one.

Hey, this is only my opinion! I am no one after all.

I bow respectfully in front of you all,
may the Peace of God rest with you
and the Blessing of Budo guide you everyday
on His Path of Confort and Restauration.
DudSan
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Old 05-26-2006, 02:07 PM   #888
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

"My smaller guys have never asked to see a film of themselves to believe what they are doing. I don't think the Gracies needed to see one of themselves either. Training tends to answer questions."

The point of filming is not to convince yourself of what you're doing, it's to convince OTHERS of the validity of your methods. That's why the Gracies started the UFC and sold GIA tapes. And it does it in a far more direct and concise method than lengthy posts on various MA discussion forums.

Best,

Roy
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Old 05-26-2006, 02:28 PM   #889
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Yes it does Roy!
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Old 05-26-2006, 05:59 PM   #890
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Wow, or rather, Yikes!!
Is this argument still going?

What if I told you I know a guy who is a 6th degree black belt in KenPo and a Black Sash in Wing Chun who has never studied aikido but thinks it "works" enough to let our small group have practice space in his dojo twice a week?

A fight......?
Meaning what?
Last time I was in what I consider to be a "fight" was the fifth grade, and it was as stupid of me then to be in a "fight" as it would be today.

If attacked by a criminal, your lawyer can tell you your first LEGAL obligation is to try to get away....escape....run!
If I couldn't escape, in the heat of the moment, I would honestly just do whatever felt natural.
I take aikido lessons, among other reasons, to try, ever so slowly, to change what might feel natural, to increase my chances of opening up an opportunity to get away....escape....run!

Crack-heads don't tap out.
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Old 05-26-2006, 06:53 PM   #891
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Patrick Crane wrote:
Crack-heads don't tap out.
no, they go to sleep or lose the ability to use the limb you've just destroyed.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 05-26-2006, 07:05 PM   #892
Man of Aiki
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

So the 'If a guy shoots in on an Aikidoka, the Aikidoka is pretty much helpless" meme still alive and well.

What else is new?
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Old 05-26-2006, 07:15 PM   #893
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

not helpless - so long as they've learned to sprawl or whizzer or the shot is bad.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 05-27-2006, 06:43 AM   #894
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Brian, you still hung up on the whole shoot thing? Go out and work with some guys that are good at it and try somethings out....it will make more sense then. If you don't have time or the ability to do that...get some pride or UFC tapes and study them closely.

Patrick:

Yea this is STILL going on! We are all having a good time here discussing Aikido, MMA, and reality. Not really about if aikido works in a real fight or not too much any more! Really more about how to us aikido skills practically...or how aikido is not geared necessarily for the fight as we traditionally practice it.

Good discussion...at least I am enjoying it.

Also...shhhh don't tell Jun...we are trying to get to 1000 post! only 105 to go!

Most of us here agree that fighting is not a good thing and that it should be avoided if possible.

The thing is though, that sometimes you don't have any options, and then what do you have? Sometimes you run, sometimes you can't!

So join in the discussion!
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Old 05-27-2006, 11:14 AM   #895
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

I find that although Aikido was not designed for competition and it may not be the most efficient system to use in the OCTAGON unlike RexCuanDo ... , most real fights I saw and experienced all started with some kind of a grab or push. I think aikido techniques are very applicable in these real situations. Look at hockey fights. One arm grabs and the other punches. Most times they will grab first and the thing escalates. I find this practice mirrors quite well what happens in real life situations. Another thing is in most situations the attacker, agressor expects you to do the natural thing and grab him back and eventually strike. He does not expect you to go after his arm and joints. I think if trained properly Aikido techniques are quite usable and applicable in real life situations. Just my 2 cents.
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Old 05-27-2006, 11:48 AM   #896
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Thanks for the insights Paul.

That is one way of looking at fights.

My concerns are not the so-called street rumbles or hockey sport type fights...but the ones where someone really wants to kill you.

Ambushes are my real fear.

You don't see the lead pipe coming for you until he is dominating and on top of you. Or the knife, or what not.

Not really sure what you can do to prepare for that. If you are lucky enough to survive the intial onslaught...you need to keep your wits about you....hold on to something, recover, and go from there.

This is another way of looking at fighting as well.

Aikido as traditiionally practiced, does not focus on this either. Nor really should it, as it would then become about the situation and not the way or DO of aikido.
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Old 05-27-2006, 11:59 AM   #897
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Yeah Kevin. Ambush type situations where you don't see the pipe until he is dominating and on top of you are in my mind impossibilities to train. You have to develop a 6th sense where you can anticipate that attack before it happens. They say Ueshiba possessed such a sense. In the case that you describe I really don't see any Martial art preparing you. In these cases we should all practice and learn fortune telling or crystal ball readings.... I know where youre coming from though Kevin.
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Old 05-27-2006, 01:06 PM   #898
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

These situations are one of the reasons I train in ground fighting. in case your point of failure goes this far, AND you survive!

But, as you say Paul...you cannot really prepare for this to thwart it. Luck can play a big part in the situation.
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Old 05-27-2006, 07:50 PM   #899
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
only 105 to go!
Only 100 now, you're on your way.

Since you're talking about how aikido applies in the real world and real situations, like an ambush or whatever, one of my biggest problems trying to practice aikido movements (tenkan/tentai) on real-world surfaces and wearing real-world footwear is that it absolutely KILLS my knees.
Barefoot on the mat.......no problem.
On the loading dock, in work boots............OUCH!!
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Old 05-27-2006, 09:45 PM   #900
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Kevin:

Not hung up on it at all, just wondering what kind of Aikido you have seen or practiced when those such as yourself have this confidence that an Aikido is 'mostly' helpless against a shoot.

I've seen every UFC since #5, Royce vs. Ken the ReMatch.

Most of the Pride's too.

I study Aikido as a self-defense art. I've also seen many of the 'real life fight' tapes out there and very rarely do you find some attacker on the street going in low, hard and fast like one of you expertly trained BJJ guys.

For self-defense it works fine.

Trust me, there aren't hordes of ex-BJJ students out there on crack now looking to mug people.
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