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Old 11-29-2005, 12:08 PM   #26
Nick Simpson
Dojo: White Rose Aikido - Durham University
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Re: Just my thoughts

'It is physically impossible for a committed attack to track its target unless there was no intent to begin with'

How?

They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
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Old 11-29-2005, 01:03 PM   #27
dj_swim
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Re: Just my thoughts

Quote:
Nick Simpson wrote:
'It is physically impossible for a committed attack to track its target unless there was no intent to begin with'

How?
I think what they meant to say is that it becomes very hard for a truly committed attack to track. Which I personally believe. However I also believe that if nage telegraphs enough (gives an indication of where they will move beforehand), it is indeed possible for a committed attack to track. I personally think that a truly committed attack is committed to hitting someone, not to hitting the space that the person used to occupy... so a certain level of focus is required, not just brute speed/force. IMHO. Of course, I'm really really new at Aikido... but I've been in a few scuffles.

-Doug
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Old 11-29-2005, 01:30 PM   #28
Nick Simpson
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Re: Just my thoughts

'However I also believe that if nage telegraphs enough (gives an indication of where they will move beforehand), it is indeed possible for a committed attack to track. I personally think that a truly committed attack is committed to hitting someone, not to hitting the space that the person used to occupy'

Totally agree with that. It depends on the situation and the uke and nage. It's not impossible. Also, there are levels of comittment while attacking, I doubt many people ever attack 100 %.

I believe Robert Mustard sensei said that he attacked Takeno sensei with 90% committment, because the 10 % he held back kept him alive. Was it Oba sensei who was admonished by O'sensei for attacking so hard that O'sensei thought he might have killed him?

They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
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Old 11-29-2005, 01:30 PM   #29
Jorge Garcia
Dojo: Shudokan School of Aikido
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Eek! Re: Just my thoughts

Quote:
Doug Wiley wrote:
Ummm... kay... two things:

1. Please tell me that this is some sort of typo and you meant to say "3" or "6" (both of which are still really horrifying)

2. Please tell me what a shihonage is so I can stay the <censored> away from it.

Thanks!

-Doug
1) It's not a typo.
2) It scared me when I heard it (and I'm fearless! ).
3) I hope I heard wrong but I don't think I did.
4) Its a standard throw.

"It is the philosophy that gives meaning to the method of training."
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Old 11-29-2005, 02:23 PM   #30
odudog
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Re: Just my thoughts

Quote:
Brian Keesler wrote:
See we must challange just as they did the problem is that most dont. Uke does his part tori his part uke falls. There are exceptions the dojo and system I train in but in general this is the case. All you have to do is look around and you will see.

Thanks
BK
Jhn 20:29

We don't need to challenge. The challenges have already been done by previous Senseis. Do you need to challenge great boxers to see if boxing really works? Do you need to challenge your math teacher to see that math really works? No. Too much time has gone by and too many people have already scrutinzed the art so it has been proven to work. Now, you can challenge your Sensei to see if he/she actually knows the art and I pray that your Sensei shows compassion on you if he/she happens to be legitimate.
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Old 11-29-2005, 02:25 PM   #31
3girls
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Re: Just my thoughts

Quote:
Brian Vickery wrote:
Hey Brian,

You know, I had the exact OPPOSITE experience when I 1st walked into an aikido dojo.

At the time, I was taking Tae Kwon Do, and while sparring in TKD I realized that if I were involved in a real fight, there was no way to stop that fight unless one of us got beat down to the point of not being able to continue the fight.

I figured that there just HAD to be a better way! There had to be a way to STOP a confrontation without having to resort to beating another preson silly.

I had heard about aikido, so I stopped by the local dojo to just check it out. The techniques they were working on was kata-dori nikyo. As soon as I saw it, the little light bulb in my head lit up, this was EXACTLY what I was looking for! A guy grabs another guy, the guy being grabbed instantly crumples the attacker & pins him to the ground ...end of confrontation!

I joined that dojo the next week, and have been training there for the last 15 years, and I still love it as much today as I did when I 1st started.

Regards,

Brian Vickery
Hey Brian,
Let me claify My disbelief was with the reality of the initial attack. IMHO begining at toimai is far more realistic and dangerous than a balistic attack. I switched from karate as I said eariler for similar reasons and like you the idea of what aikido is is what hooked me.

Thanks

Bk
jhn20:29
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Old 11-29-2005, 02:32 PM   #32
odudog
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Re: Just my thoughts

Brian Keesler wrote:
No running from 3 mats away arm raised signaling attack...


It might look stupid to you viewed with the modern eye but you need to look back into history to see the use of this type of attack. Back in the day, there was the Bonzai charge. We've all seen them in old black and white samurai movies, Braveheart, The Patriot, etc... Japanese like tradition and most of us in Aikido like tradition hence the traditional attack.
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Old 11-29-2005, 02:49 PM   #33
3girls
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Re: Just my thoughts

Quote:
Nick Simpson wrote:
'It is physically impossible for a committed attack to track its target unless there was no intent to begin with'

How?
Hey Nick,
Let me attempt to explain, First lets look at bullet that has been fired from a weapon. Once a target is acquired and the round fired that round will not deviate from its target (now I understand that muzzle velocity, weight, windage,etc have and effect on trajectory) but at short distance the slug will not deviate from its intended target. Now once fired the round has intent, intent to strike its intended target and if the target were to move after fireing the round cannot change course do to its intent.
Now a committed strike is much like this bullet once the punch is fired with intent to strike a target it must complete its course other wise there was no intent to strike that target. What changes is that we are able to think unlike the bullet. We perceive action as it happens and attempt to adjust to that action, unfortunately our mind can not process information through our nervous system to our muscles fast enough to change our intent unless there was no intent to begin with.
As an exercise with this principle have a partner hold a striking pad and you two square off at toimai. This will require you to fully commit since your target will just be outside of your range. Now strike the pad with the intent to do damage as you would in reality, have your partner test this several times by not moving out the pad out of the way. Then at his/her discretion once the strike is launch have them do aikido, move out of the way of the attack you try and track the pad with your strike you will not be able to I know I have tired many many many times. If you have intent to strike and strike with intent whether fast or slow you can not track tori. This gets much harder when done slowly yet still with intent from uke. try it sometime.


Thanks
BK
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Old 11-29-2005, 03:01 PM   #34
3girls
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Re: Just my thoughts

Quote:
Mike Braxton wrote:
Brian Keesler wrote:
No running from 3 mats away arm raised signaling attack...


It might look stupid to you viewed with the modern eye but you need to look back into history to see the use of this type of attack. Back in the day, there was the Banzai charge. We've all seen them in old black and white samurai movies, Brave heart, The Patriot, etc... Japanese like tradition and most of us in Aikido like tradition hence the traditional attack.
Hey Mike, I agree that it has tradition and I feel tradition is important and it is important to remember it as such. IMHO I ask you as an attack is it the most effective attack to use? I admit that in aikido I am just and infant barely able to crawl but that does not mean I have not trained in other martial arts. From tori's stand point it is easy to work with leave ample time to prepare and anytime uke is ballistic tori's job is made easier. However, would not a uke that is closer to you, more precise with there attack yet still has intent to strike and then be dangerous after the initial attack be better?

Thanks
BK
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Old 11-29-2005, 07:27 PM   #35
3girls
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Re: Just my thoughts

I suppose that I am partly to blame so i appologise but the point I was attempting to make has been swept under. the essence of what I was getting at was not this style or that style is better, that attack is stupid or not this is not my point.

If you look at what I am trying to get at it is this type of attitude, I understand that in order to train we must have faith in the art/sensei we choose, however why is it so unreasonable to accept other ideas and implement them, there is no one who knows all in regards to aikido. I have always been taught that for example shodan is just another beginning,that every rank you attain is just another learning process. Yet talk to someone with rank about trying something from another syllabus and see how far you get with it.

Secondly why is competition bad? I am not advocating tournament aikido. So why is it shunned other than the founder did not want his art to be competitive.

thanks
BK
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Old 11-29-2005, 07:46 PM   #36
3girls
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Re: Just my thoughts

I am partly to blame for the direction of what my post was about but the main point of this post has been overlooked. I have attempted to defend small parts of the matter instead of directing to the whole subject so for that i do apologize.

My desire is as always for knowledge, I understand that we must have faith in our system and its instructors but we should always strive to learn. Yet It seems that so many do not truly see it that way. We used to have guest instructors from other styles come to our karate dojo to teach, test and learn how often do you see that in aikido other than a seminar but they are generally people from the same system. We talk about sharing and the spirituality of this art and this is true as long as you are part of this group or that group and do it the same way they do.

Why not competition? , why is that a four letter word in aikido? I am not talking about what has become of tkd or karate but after a demonstration how about a little friendly competition, the sharpening of the sword so to speak. I know that I am not some 30 year aikido vet but I have always been told that advancement in rank is just another starting point and new opportunity to learn, HMMM

Thanks
BK
20:29
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Old 11-30-2005, 06:28 AM   #37
Jorge Garcia
Dojo: Shudokan School of Aikido
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Re: Just my thoughts

[quote=Why not competition? , why is that a four letter word in aikido? I am not talking about what has become of tkd or karate but after a demonstration how about a little friendly competition, the sharpening of the sword so to speak.
Thanks
BK
20:29[/QUOTE]

I think this is the answer to your question.

"The training and discipline common to all the Ways, martial or cultural, consist of three levels of mastery: physical, psychological and spiritual. On the physical level of mastery of form (kata) is the crux of training. The teacher provides a model form, the student observes carefully and repeats it countless times until he has completely internalized the form... In the ultimate mastery of form the student is released from adherence to form. (p.7) …the internal psychological changes (are) taking place from the very beginning. The tedious, repetitious and monotonous learning routine tests the student's commitment and willpower, but it reduces stubbornness, curbs willfulness, and eliminates bad habits of body and mind. In the process…real strength, character and potential begin to emerge. (p.8)
In every martial and cultural art, free expression of self is blocked by one's own ego. (Faced with an opponent) if an opening does occur, it is created by one's ego. One becomes vulnerable when one stops to think about winning, losing, taking advantage, impressing, or disregarding the opponent. When the mind stops, even for a single instant, the body freezes, and fluid movement is lost… (p.8). The egoless self is open, flexible, supple, fluid, and dynamic in body, mind, and spirit. Being egoless, the self identifies with all things and all people, seeing them not from its self-centered perspective, but from their own respective centers… the ability to see all existence from a non-self-centered perspective… (is)… its highest expression (and) none other than compassion. Such a way of thinking is the essence of all the martial and cultural Ways in the Japanese tradition. Aikido is a modern formulation of this essence, perfected by the genius of Master Ueshiba Morihei. Aikido, being a form of traditional martial art, realizes this universal (principle) through rigorous training of the body. Ultimately, physical, psychological, and spiritual mastery are one and the same. (p.9) (This is why a dojo is a)…place of enlightenment…the place where the ego self undergoes transformation into the egoless self."(p.10) (8)

From Taitetsu Unno (Writer of the preface to "The Spirit of Aikido")

"It is the philosophy that gives meaning to the method of training."
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Old 11-30-2005, 06:47 AM   #38
3girls
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Re: Just my thoughts

First thanks to Brian and Jorge for helping me. I posted this as my thoughts because these are things that I have struggled with since beginning aikido. I posted here because of the experienced practitoners within this fourm. My intent was not to create conflict instead expose/bare to you people my thoughts in search of answers/ understanding for these questions. Is it not what these forums are for? So I ask You all help me to understand.

Thanks Bk
jnn20:29
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Old 11-30-2005, 08:19 AM   #39
Jorge Garcia
Dojo: Shudokan School of Aikido
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Re: Just my thoughts

Thanks for your post. I know that folks on the forum don't mind answering sincere questions. I think that understanding some things can change a persons perspective a lot. They did mine. I recommend looking at the introduction to Best Aikido as well. I read at that often to think about Doshu's explanation of budo.
Best wishes,

"It is the philosophy that gives meaning to the method of training."
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Old 11-30-2005, 08:42 AM   #40
Chuck Clark
 
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Re: Just my thoughts

Another take on the question about "competition" is located here,
Roger Alexander's article

I think it's also worth looking into the discussions concerning the quotes of Morihei Ueshiba relating to the idea of "competition" in aikido practice. Look for comments by Professor Peter Goldsbury, Jun Akiyama, Chris Li, and others concerning these comments in the original Japanese. These discussions can be found here on AikiWeb.

I am not in favor of sport or tournament style activities (kyogi and shiai) in budo training, however the correct understanding of competition and how it should be managed in training is very important.

Chuck Clark
Jiyushinkai Aikibudo
www.jiyushinkai.org
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Old 11-30-2005, 09:04 AM   #41
odudog
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Re: Just my thoughts

Quote:
Brian Keesler wrote:
Hey Mike, I agree that it has tradition and I feel tradition is important and it is important to remember it as such. IMHO I ask you as an attack is it the most effective attack to use? I admit that in aikido I am just and infant barely able to crawl but that does not mean I have not trained in other martial arts. From tori's stand point it is easy to work with leave ample time to prepare and anytime uke is ballistic tori's job is made easier. However, would not a uke that is closer to you, more precise with there attack yet still has intent to strike and then be dangerous after the initial attack be better?

Thanks
BK
jhn20:29

We are learning to protect ourselves from several maai. Uke is not always going to right in your face when he/she attacks. If you were to actually let someone get that close to you before he/she attacks and you know something is going to jump off then you made a very big mistake. Not all the knuckle heads out there are going to wait until they are close before they show their true intentions. Just think about it, two guys get into a yelling match at a distance. One of them decides to take it a step further and charges. Again, if you have seen a UFC match. You will have seen at least several times that one guy will rush over to the other side of the octagon in hopes of getting really close. Aren't these the same as the 3 tatami mat Banzai charge?
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Old 11-30-2005, 10:33 PM   #42
CNYMike
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Re: Just my thoughts

Quote:
Brian Keesler wrote:
..... The most common definition of Aikido is as a gentle harmonious noncompetitive spiritual art. This lack of competitive aikibudo is one reason most budo practitioners believe aikido is only for show. Now when I use the statement competitive aikibudo, I am not referring to the many trophies and medals, which can be won through tournaments. I am referring to the natural instinctive competition brought on by a combat. The concept of one individual being attacked by another individual (or individuals) on the mat with the willingness to engage honestly and freely regardless rank or the outcome; willing to lose yet striving to win at the same time. In all other budo system this competitive combat exists; karate, jkd, kenpo, judo ECT. In arts such as karate when sparring with the sensei or kohai there exists the understanding between you and your training partner that he/she expects you to try and defeat him/her and vice versa. This is competitive combat, even with the pads for protection there exists a do or die mentality. ......
Our dojos must have been looking at differently because one of my senseis approached jiyu kumite as "just another drill." He yelled at us to keep it light, and drove home the idea of targeting the chest only by repeating the story about how he almost lost a student who got kicked in the throat by someone who didn't follow directions. Lost as in "he almost died."

My first karate sensei outlined three attitudes in karate:

Attitude 1: Purely defensive. You block or parry without counterattacking.

Attitude 2: Give and take. You trade attacks and block each other. This is where jiyu kumite lives (or should live).

Attitude 3: You go after the person, totally offensive, to take him out.

My Kali instructor -- who, BTW, has an instructorship in Jun Fan/JKD -- has also introduced us to sparring, and has emphasized that we are supposed to do it WITHOUT trying to "win." The goal is for sparring to feel no different than any other type of partner training, the only difference being that it's totally random. But it's easier said than done, and he's been shepherding us through levels of "practice sparring" to get to that point. I don't think anyone except for one of the seniors is there, and even then, the gentleman in question has been there for a while.

His goal is to have us "play" when we spar, as in "play to learn." Guro Dan Inosanto says, "Whatever drill you do, make a game of it." That way you take the pressure off and it's easier to learn. He also cites Thai Boxer, who manage to spar all day in a hot and humid climate by going slower than full tilt. Don't think it pays off? Hop in the ring with one of those guys.

So from where I sit, sparring ISN'T supposed to be "competitive" on any level. If you're dojo did it that way, that's fine, but that's not the direction any of my instructors have tried to steer it.

Quote:
.... Another reason aikido suffers is its own feudal nature, the samurai class. At the center exists the great leader surrounding himself/herself with his or her disciples. These disciples right or wrong do not question the effectiveness, neither do they test the theory of what they are taught nor are they encouraged to due so. Why? Is it fear, fear of not being a part of the group? Or fear of being excluded from learning the hidden secrets that only the sensei holds? .....
Because it would be disrespectful, period.

Asian cultures have place greater value on respect than ours seems to, I'm sorry to say. Part of that is that you give people the respect they're due, and learn what they have to teach you. This is true of many Asian cultures, not just the Japanese; in the Indonesian system I've been learning, respect is called "hormat" and challenging Serak in the manner of you describe could be construed as breaking hormat. And since hormat applies to everyone, not just your sensiors in Serak, it's the lense I view Aikido from. So it's been disconcerting to come here and see posts by people who think they can't be respectful because they're not Asian. That's your business, but I can name some non-Asian martial artists who won't train with people whom they consider disrespectful. And they have instructorships in JKD.

Between those two points, as far as I'm concerned, the rest of your argument doesn't have a leg to stand on.

Mike
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Old 11-30-2005, 10:43 PM   #43
CNYMike
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Re: Just my thoughts

Quote:
Brian Keesler wrote:
Secondly why is competition bad? I am not advocating tournament aikido. So why is it shunned other than the founder did not want his art to be competitive.
That's why.

I talked abou this with my Kali instructor one time (and anyone from my dojo, I'm going to tell you how to win an argument that you may never have anyway). Guro Andy Astle is a big advocate of sparring. He can talk your ear off for a million years on the advantages of doing it. His practice sparring regime has helped me learn to like sparring. Yet he also agreed with me that if your instructors and seniors in an art tell you not to spar, you don't spar. He takes respect very seriously, and going against not just your sensei but everyone in your lineage all the way back to O Sensei would be disrespectful.

(So that's how you win the argument, guys: "That's interesting, Andy, but my insturctors don't want me to do that." The end.)

As I noted in another post, there are people in the martial arts who want nothing to do with rei/hormat/resepct, who don't care for the cultural side, any of that. That's their business. But when O Sensei gives rei such a central part in Aikido, you want to think twcie before going against him.
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Old 11-30-2005, 10:49 PM   #44
CNYMike
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Re: Just my thoughts

Quote:
Brian Keesler wrote:
.... We used to have guest instructors from other styles come to our karate dojo to teach .....
My karate dojo did that a few times, though. Not for a while, though.

Quote:
.... how often do you see that in aikido other than a seminar but they are generally people from the same system .....
Common in the AIkido dojos I go to, but not really a bad thing. And any group can be prone to "group think." I've been to a whole bunch of seminars with Guro Dan Inosanto, and I can't remember the last time someone at one of them promoted Shotokan; it's all from the JKD/FMA/Thai Boxing/grappling/SE Asian family. There's a similar clustering around Aikido, a family of Aikido, Kenjutusu, Kendo, and so forth. It happens.
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Old 12-01-2005, 01:29 AM   #45
Nick Simpson
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Re: Just my thoughts

Good posts Brian and Co, I'll come back to this because it's too early in the morning for me to write a eloquent response. And talk of bullet's, trajectory and intent is way over my head for another couple of hours

They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
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Old 12-01-2005, 10:44 AM   #46
3girls
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Re: Just my thoughts

Hey Jorge,

"
Quote:
The training and discipline common to all the Ways, martial or cultural, consist of three levels of mastery: physical, psychological and spiritual. On the physical level of mastery of form (kata) is the crux of training. The teacher provides a model form, the student observes carefully and repeats it countless times until he has completely internalized the form... In the ultimate mastery of form the student is released from adherence to form. (p.7) …the internal psychological changes (are) taking place from the very beginning. The tedious, repetitious and monotonous learning routine tests the student's commitment and willpower, but it reduces stubbornness, curbs willfulness, and eliminates bad habits of body and mind. In the process…real strength, character and potential begin to emerge. (p.8)
This I understand no problems here

Quote:
In every martial and cultural art, free expression of self is blocked by one's own ego. (Faced with an opponent) if an opening does occur, it is created by one's ego. One becomes vulnerable when one stops to think about winning, losing, taking advantage, impressing, or disregarding the opponent. When the mind stops, even for a single instant, the body freezes, and fluid movement is lost… (p.8). The egoless self is open, flexible, supple, fluid, and dynamic in body, mind, and spirit. Being egoless, the self identifies with all things and all people, seeing them not from its self-centered perspective, but from their own respective centers… the ability to see all existence from a non-self-centered perspective… (is)… its highest expression (and) none other than compassion. Such a way of thinking is the essence of all the martial and cultural Ways in the Japanese tradition. Aikido is a modern formulation of this essence, perfected by the genius of Master Ueshiba Morihei. Aikido, being a form of traditional martial art, realizes this universal (principle) through rigorous training of the body. Ultimately, physical, psychological, and spiritual mastery are one and the same. (p.9) (This is why a dojo is a)…place of enlightenment…the place where the ego self undergoes transformation into the egoless self."(p.10) (8)

From Taitetsu Unno (Writer of the preface to "The Spirit of Aikido")
[/quote]

This you must help me with please

Thanks
Bk
jhn20:29
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Old 12-01-2005, 10:49 AM   #47
3girls
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Re: Just my thoughts

Quote:
Chuck Clark wrote:
Another take on the question about "competition" is located here,
Roger Alexander's article

I think it's also worth looking into the discussions concerning the quotes of Morihei Ueshiba relating to the idea of "competition" in aikido practice. Look for comments by Professor Peter Goldsbury, Jun Akiyama, Chris Li, and others concerning these comments in the original Japanese. These discussions can be found here on AikiWeb.

I am not in favor of sport or tournament style activities (kyogi and shiai) in budo training, however the correct understanding of competition and how it should be managed in training is very important.

Hey Sensei Thanks excellent article, and like most people I am using the wrong connitation. I also looked up and found this post as well http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90
minus one an excellent post, especially numbers 29,31, and (43(deffinately a fine line and unfortunately one I have crossed to many times in my life. A side of me I have tried to put to my heel))

Thanks
BK
jhn20:29
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Old 12-01-2005, 10:54 AM   #48
3girls
Dojo: WestCoast Aikido
Location: bradenton
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Re: Just my thoughts

[
Quote:
Mike Braxton]We are learning to protect ourselves from several maai.
Hey Mike, This is very true

Quote:
Uke is not always going to right in your face when he/she attacks. If you were to actually let someone get that close to you before he/she attacks and you know something is going to jump off then you made a very big mistake
.

I agree if uke is inside of toimai I should be executing already

Quote:
Not all the knuckle heads out there are going to wait until they are close before they show their true intentions. Just think about it, two guys get into a yelling match at a distance. One of them decides to take it a step further and charges. Again, if you have seen a UFC match. You will have seen at least several times that one guy will rush over to the other side of the octagon in hopes of getting really close. Aren't these the same as the 3 tatami mat Banzai charge?
[/quote]

Most deffinate, I never said it was not an attack nor did I say it was stupid. To my eye I see a one punch attack not a combination happening, the latter to me is more dangerous for tori. I would prefer the 3 tatami attack believe me especially at my level

Thanks
BK\
Jhn 20:29
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Old 12-01-2005, 11:09 AM   #49
3girls
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Re: Just my thoughts

[
Quote:
QUOTE=Michael Gallagher]Our dojos must have been looking at differently because one of my senseis approached jiyu kumite as "just another drill." He yelled at us to keep it light, and drove home the idea of targeting the chest only by repeating the story about how he almost lost a student who got kicked in the throat by someone who didn't follow directions. Lost as in "he almost died."

My first karate sensei outlined three attitudes in karate:

Attitude 1: Purely defensive. You block or parry without counterattacking.

Attitude 2: Give and take. You trade attacks and block each other. This is where jiyu kumite lives (or should live).

Attitude 3: You go after the person, totally offensive, to take him out.
My karate instructor was a bit more aggressive, A frequent qoute he used was "Do unto others before they do it to you." I do not agree with this statement anymore nor have I for a long time. As for sparring it was both light and hard depending, point fighting was alway light, free sparing tended to get hard quick. Every so often we would as a group go to Mike Hallabaugh's dojo in town and get pounded hard And it was very combative(used appropriately) and I embraced it I had no choice at a young age I had to learn to block my dads right.

Thanks
BK
Jhn20:29




Quote:
Because it would be disrespectful, period.

Asian cultures have place greater value on respect than ours seems to, I'm sorry to say. Part of that is that you give people the respect they're due, and learn what they have to teach you. This is true of many Asian cultures, not just the Japanese; in the Indonesian system I've been learning, respect is called "hormat" and challenging Serak in the manner of you describe could be construed as breaking hormat. And since hormat applies to everyone, not just your sensiors in Serak, it's the lense I view Aikido from. So it's been disconcerting to come here and see posts by people who think they can't be respectful because they're not Asian. That's your business, but I can name some non-Asian martial artists who won't train with people whom they consider disrespectful. And they have instructorships in JKD.

Between those two points, as far as I'm concerned, the rest of your argument doesn't have a leg to stand on.

Mike
[/quote]

First of all I was raised to be very respectfull, but I agree as a nation we are moving away from that. To question someone is not disrespectfull, its not the question but the heart and mind of the person asking the question. What you are really talking about is ego, and having worked with doctors for over 20yrs I understand ego very well as theirs can be very fragile. Had Osensei not questioned what he had learned there would be no aikido today. I have never met any of the fine people within these boards yet I have nothing but respect for them, These thoughts that I have had that has brought on these question is not from disrespect but desire to learn. When I first saw aikido I knew that was what I saw in my mind martial arts to be and I wanted to do.
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Old 12-01-2005, 08:36 PM   #50
CNYMike
Dojo: Finger Lakes Aikido
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Re: Just my thoughts

Quote:
Brian Keesler wrote:

My karate instructor was a bit more aggressive, A frequent qoute he used was "Do unto others before they do it to you." I do not agree with this statement anymore nor have I for a long time. As for sparring it was both light and hard depending, point fighting was alway light, free sparing tended to get hard quick. Every so often we would as a group go to Mike Hallabaugh's dojo in town and get pounded hard And it was very combative(used appropriately) and I embraced it I had no choice at a young age I had to learn to block my dads right.

Thanks
BK
Jhn20:29
Right, so if you look at sparring that way, and assume that is the way it has to be, then yes, your argument makes sense. But if you look at sparring as less do-or-die, more a form of training, then no, it doesn't. And as you've noticed by now, there's variation all over the map.


Quote:

..... To question someone is not disrespectfull, its not the question but the heart and mind of the person asking the question .....
Let me clarify: In this context, being respectufl as a martial arts student means aborbing and learning what your teacher has to teach you. Yes, there is a point where you can experiment, have your own opinions, and so forth, but that's LATER, somewhere above shodan or its equivelant. But probably not down in the lower ranks.

Quote:
Had Osensei not questioned what he had learned there would be no aikido today.
Maybe, but I doubt he did it right at the start of his martial arts career. More likely he kept his mouth shut and did what his sensei told him to do. And he was pretty strict himself: Even if you met his entrance requirements of having two trustworthy sponsors he knew personally and martial arts experience, if you behaved badly when he interviewed you, you were out.

So when someone goes to a dojo to learn Aikido, they should make it their business to learn Aikido, not pick every little thing apart, especially when they're nowhere near completing that first step of reaching shodan.
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