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Old 09-03-2008, 12:49 PM   #26
Aikibu
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Re: why Dan should post videos

I apologize to Rob. Please delete the post Jun.

William Hazen
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Old 09-03-2008, 12:54 PM   #27
Keith Larman
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Re: why Dan should post videos

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
To address some of Keiths comments about possibly being full of myself. I think that is a hard case to make since I continually point to others-and those from cross cultures arts-like Mike, Ark, the ICMA, and some DR teachers etc.
I am no "fan" of any one person, including myself, as it is too narrow a focus. I am a fan and researcher of the method...and not the man
Just in case it wasn't clear I wasn't saying you were. I was commenting on the perceptions by others here on the board that seem to range from one extreme to another. All that I was trying to say that unless they get on the mat with you all the discussion is ultimately moot.

And I can't imagine why you'd want to do videos anyway. This stuff ain't learned from videos or websites. It is sweat on the mat.

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Old 09-03-2008, 01:17 PM   #28
MM
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Re: why Dan should post videos

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
And I can't imagine why you'd want to do videos anyway. This stuff ain't learned from videos or websites. It is sweat on the mat.
Don't forget sweat at home, too, with solo exercises.
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Old 09-03-2008, 01:21 PM   #29
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Re: why Dan should post videos

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
Sorry Dan my mother is dying from cancer and her care is my priority. I stand by my comments to Rob. I am sure he means well but his people skills need work IMO

Again one more time Taika Oyata Sensei of Ryu Te and Tanaka Sensei both here at various times in California. There are others as well...

William Hazen
Sorry to hear about your mother, William. Wish you the best of luck in her battle.

I don't remember you mentioning them. Must have missed that post. Thanks for the reply.
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Old 09-03-2008, 01:28 PM   #30
DH
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Re: why Dan should post videos

Hi Keith
No worries there. I knew what you meant and was addressing it as a possible question from the readers.
Did you get my P.M.?
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Old 09-03-2008, 01:34 PM   #31
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Re: why Dan should post videos

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
Again one more time Taika Oyata Sensei of Ryu Te and Tanaka Sensei both here at various times in California. There are others as well...

Why do you ask?

William Hazen
Because I like to make referrences of who someone thinks has power. I then know who to check out
You had mentioned your sensei who travels around teaching and who has it. Is he one of these men?
If I at least know a name I can look up videos...

Hey sorry to hear about your Mom. I feel your pain. I lost my first mom at 18 and my step mom a few years ago.
Now that you went first:
I built an in-law apartment here, and my mother in law died in our arms in my home. Now I help take care of my father-in-law who is 86.
Now add to the mix that I own my own business in a tough time in construction. So I do seminars...here, I have also seriously curtailed my own training in another Koryu I train in on the other side of the continent.
Again, I feel your pain.
Getting -my- picture?

Last edited by DH : 09-03-2008 at 01:41 PM.
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Old 09-03-2008, 01:37 PM   #32
Keith Larman
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Re: why Dan should post videos

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Don't forget sweat at home, too, with solo exercises.
Absolutely, but only after, not before...

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Old 09-03-2008, 01:54 PM   #33
Keith Larman
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Re: why Dan should post videos

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Hi Keith
No worries there. I knew what you meant and was addressing it as a possible question from the readers.
Did you get my P.M.?
Yup, working on a reply. Complex question, actually...

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Old 09-03-2008, 02:34 PM   #34
Aikibu
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Re: why Dan should post videos

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Because I like to make referrences of who someone thinks has power. I then know who to check out
You had mentioned your sensei who travels around teaching and who has it. Is he one of these men?
If I at least know a name I can look up videos...
Yeah I understand... When Oyata Sensei and his folks asked if there were any videos books or a website he could look at of you I sadly had to tell him no.

Quote:
Hey sorry to hear about your Mom. I feel your pain. I lost my first mom at 18 and my step mom a few years ago.
Now that you went first:
I built an in-law apartment here, and my mother in law died in our arms in my home. Now I help take care of my father-in-law who is 86.
Now add to the mix that I own my own business in a tough time in construction. So I do seminars...here, I have also seriously curtailed my own training in another Koryu I train in on the other side of the continent.
Again, I feel your pain.
Getting -my- picture?
Sure do Dan... We're both a couple of dudes just trying to make a life on this small speck of dust in the vast universe.

God Bless You.

William Hazen
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Old 09-03-2008, 03:02 PM   #35
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Re: why Dan should post videos

And to give you and idea of how forthcoming I am being with you William. Most people who currently train with me-don't even know what I just told you. I don't talk about it.
There is a genuiness that you are being offered here my friend, because even though I am not going to do what you ask, and I don't partcularly like the manner in which it is being pressed- I respect the one doing the requesting. I trust that it doesn't escape your attention, either now or in the future.

Last edited by DH : 09-03-2008 at 03:05 PM.
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Old 09-03-2008, 05:52 PM   #36
Aikibu
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Re: why Dan should post videos

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
And to give you and idea of how forthcoming I am being with you William. Most people who currently train with me-don't even know what I just told you. I don't talk about it.
There is a genuiness that you are being offered here my friend, because even though I am not going to do what you ask, and I don't partcularly like the manner in which it is being pressed- I respect the one doing the requesting. I trust that it doesn't escape your attention, either now or in the future.
Your trust is appreciated Dan and will not be taken for granted.

William Hazen
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Old 09-03-2008, 07:37 PM   #37
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Re: why Dan should post videos

William,

Where there is an end there is always a beginning. Where there is a beginning there will always be an end.

Each of us, travels an individual road. Yet, each of us, are human in the mortality we are share...

Best wishes,
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

Joseph T. Oliva Arriola
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Old 09-03-2008, 10:34 PM   #38
Aikibu
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Re: why Dan should post videos

Quote:
Joseph Arriola wrote: View Post
William,

Where there is an end there is always a beginning. Where there is a beginning there will always be an end.

Each of us, travels an individual road. Yet, each of us, are human in the mortality we are share...

Best wishes,
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola
Thanks Joseph.

William Hazen
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Old 09-04-2008, 08:54 AM   #39
Jim Sorrentino
 
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Re: why Dan should post videos

Hi Dan,

I've added the bold text to your statement below:

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Teachers of aikido from 3rd Dan to 6th dan have tested both my skill, and my knowledge, and my ability to teach it others..and more importantly to them.
To a man, they...now all agree with me.

Nothing will end the controversy as it is a defining one. The open discussion and direct displays of these skills by men with the ability to demonstrate them are defining aikido as it is practiced today. It is unfortunate that it is divisive, but I believe that is unavoidable because it is so defining.
[snip]
Aikido, is going to change for the better-in the opinion of your teachers with decades of experience. Three of your own 6th dans have considered it life changing and a defning moment in their own careers.
In the interests of "open discussion", who are those three aikido 6th dan? Thanks in advance ---

Sincerely,

Jim
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Old 09-04-2008, 11:41 AM   #40
rob_liberti
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Re: why Dan should post videos

I have personally trained with a 6th Dan aikido person at Dan's barn. Who just emailed me and asked if Dan is having class next Saturday. So if you show up to the barn ...

Asking Dan to put HIMSELF on a video has Dan talking about his own personal boundaries. That is still a silly thing to devote a lot of discussion to, but at least it is not in EVERY OTHER thread anymore.

If 6th dan level aikido people start publicly announcing such things, I'm sure both Dan and I will be happy to bandy about their names.

Until then, Dan's "open discussion" was clearly about HIS PERSONAL business (family situation).

This comes to you from the press secretary for Mr Harden.

Rob
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Old 09-04-2008, 11:59 AM   #41
BK Barker
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Re: why Dan should post videos

Well... you wont see me reply to many posts especially about doing aiki but I understand both sides of this video topic. Yes I like to look at video but in all honesty I feel that unless someone knows or has an idea of what is being shown in these video's it will do nothing more then create a lot of misconceptions and misguided attempts/thoughts on this subject. Sure it's awesome to see some of the power but to see and feel it in person is the ultimate in my opinion. I respect everyone's views on it but I see more of a benefit of not just watching them and trying to figure out what is being done with or without commentary because of everyone's different ability to comprehend spoken/written word. At least in person you get to experience what is being said/taught/explained while being corrected.

Dan thanks again to you and your students I look forward to being able to work with you again sometime.

"Tiltright"
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Old 09-04-2008, 12:50 PM   #42
Jim Sorrentino
 
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Re: why Dan should post videos

Hi Rob,
Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
If 6th dan level aikido people start publicly announcing such things, I'm sure both Dan and I will be happy to bandy about their names.

Until then, Dan's "open discussion" was clearly about HIS PERSONAL business (family situation).
No, it was about what Dan is doing and/or teaching, and its relationship to aikido. Here is what Dan said:
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Nothing will end the controversy as it is a defining one. The open discussion and direct displays of these skills by men with the ability to demonstrate them are defining aikido as it is practiced today. It is unfortunate that it is divisive, but I believe that is unavoidable because it is so defining.
I understand and respect Dan's unwillingness to post videos. What I do not like is Dan's use of anonymous testimonial authority to support his arguments. If Dan and his students/proteges/acolytes want to keep their training private, that is their privilege --- but it's not private anymore if he and they talk about it on an open forum, and even less so if he and they use "hints" of authority (6th dan, over 40 years of training, studied with Ueshiba M.) to support their positions.

Sincerely,

Jim
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Old 09-04-2008, 05:02 PM   #43
rob_liberti
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Re: why Dan should post videos

Well, it just a matter of degree. Nothing he is saying is inaccurate just not as detailed as you would prefer. It is as much detail as he can provide without speaking for people who did not give him explicit permission to do so. I see it as a respect thing as opposed to a sneaky thing.

Heck, I'm not too anonymous! You can call my house or visit me. When my son is sleeping I'll work out until I have to go to work the next morning.

You know me and I'm telling you such people exist and I know who they are. It's just not cool to put their names out for the public. I expect at least one of these people to do their own talking about Dan soon enough. We'll just have to wait for that to happen first.

Rob
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Old 09-04-2008, 05:05 PM   #44
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Re: why Dan should post videos

I don't know but I'd bet if Erick Meade and his teacher were to all get together with Dan to demonstrate all of their individual abilities that Dan would consent to doing it on film.
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Old 09-05-2008, 11:17 AM   #45
Jim Sorrentino
 
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Re: why Dan should post videos

Hi Rob,

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
You know me and I'm telling you such people exist and I know who they are. It's just not cool to put their names out for the public. I expect at least one of these people to do their own talking about Dan soon enough. We'll just have to wait for that to happen first.
I believe you --- but how sad it is that someone could achieve the rank of 6th dan in aikido, and yet not have the independence of character to state openly that he or she is exploring and researching the depths and boundaries of the art. One of the main reasons that I continue to study with Saotome-sensei is that he has always supported my efforts to improve my aikido, no matter where those efforts might lead me.

Sincerely,

Jim
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Old 09-05-2008, 11:47 AM   #46
Howard Popkin
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Re: why Dan should post videos

Hello,

If you may notice, I really only post here about seminars, fishing, beer drinking and the like, and this is why.

It is ridiculous to ask Dan or any other Daitoryu practicioner to post videos. Why you ask ?

Let me bottom line this for you guys:
1) If he did :
a) You wouldn't know what he was doing
b) You wouldn't be able to see what he was doing
c) It would look fake, as if the uke jumped across the room or smashed themselves into the floor.

Every person whom I have met says that Dan's skills are great. These techniques are just different then those in aikido.

For those of you who are going to yell at me, I said DIFFERENT. I didn't say better or worse. That is for you to decide.

First time I met Okamoto, he threw me literally across the room like he was swatting a fly. "All too easy" as Vader said.

First time I met Ole Kingston of Denmark(wheelchair bound), he beat the crap out of me for a few hours. I couldn't believe that someone on a wheelchair could do that. I had studied karate, just, and american jujitsu for 18 years at that point, in addition to 6 plus years in a different style of Daitoryu, but I still didn't know how to use body aiki.

Hence the practice.

Stop the nonsense arguing, go grab someone who says they know Aiki.

If it feels like what you are used to, they don't know it. If you fall into a black hole, get whiplash because the back of your head hit your spine, and it feels like your legs were kicked out from under you by a horse...all the while the thrower hasn't really moved or expended any energy....then practice with that person, alot

Oh, yea....one other thing......if they twist your wrist unti it screams pain.....different stuff. Not that they can't, they just usually choose not to.

No, I don't believe that you can explain it all with physics, diagrams, and chatter. You need to practice in a certain way, with certain posture, specific load bearing practice, relaxed movements, etc for a while to get this stuff.

One thing that I might disagree with most people in on is that while the solo training will surely make you progress faster, it is still a long hard road to get good at this stuff. These guys like Dan who are giving you a road map to it should be thanked, not yelled at by people who have never seen it or felt it. Most people have not really seen Aiki and shouldn't make judgments until they have.

Also, Dan WORKED his behind off to get where he is. Be thankful he wants to teach it. There are a few who don't want to teach it. They just beat up their uke's for their own practice so they get better while all you get good at is ukemi of one form or another.

Hope that helps.

Howard

P.S. The only reason you guys got this out of me is because the tuna aren't biting today
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Old 09-05-2008, 11:49 AM   #47
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Re: why Dan should post videos

Quote:
Jim Sorrentino wrote: View Post
Hi Rob,

I believe you --- but how sad it is that someone could achieve the rank of 6th dan in aikido, and yet not have the independence of character to state openly that he or she is exploring and researching the depths and boundaries of the art. One of the main reasons that I continue to study with Saotome-sensei is that he has always supported my efforts to improve my aikido, no matter where those efforts might lead me.

Sincerely,

Jim
Uh, Jim. I read that and went OMG. Really. I'm not trying to be a wisea--, you know the phrase, but that came across as really condescending. Especially to anyone who has put in the time and effort to achieve 6th dan. That's an accomplishment few make. I really respect that. And to say that it's sad or that they don't have the independence of character? Egads, Jim.

These people just might be open about exploring the depths of the art, but just haven't talked with anyone about certain things. Or they might have personal reasons for withholding certain things. There's a thousand reasons, all of them good. In your quest to find out who these people are, I think you crossed a line Jim. At least the post reads that way to me. If I'm wrong, I certainly apologize. And I hope I'm wrong.

Mark
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Old 09-05-2008, 11:55 AM   #48
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Re: why Dan should post videos

Quote:
Howard Popkin wrote: View Post
If it feels like what you are used to, they don't know it. If you fall into a black hole, get whiplash because the back of your head hit your spine, and it feels like your legs were kicked out from under you by a horse...all the while the thrower hasn't really moved or expended any energy....then practice with that person, alot
My favorite part is when their eyes bug out then they do that blinky thing where they try to figure out what happened. Had a couple of those moments with a new (to me) person last night. Good times (and a good post Howard, thanks).

Chris Moses
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Old 09-05-2008, 12:29 PM   #49
rob_liberti
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Re: why Dan should post videos

I simply think that some people are not leveraging the speed of the internet.

They also serve who stand and wait...

Rob
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Old 09-05-2008, 12:32 PM   #50
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Re: why Dan should post videos

Quote:
Howard Popkin wrote: View Post
First time I met Ole Kingston of Denmark(wheelchair bound), he beat the crap out of me for a few hours. I couldn't believe that someone on a wheelchair could do that. I had studied karate, just, and american jujitsu for 18 years at that point, in addition to 6 plus years in a different style of Daitoryu, but I still didn't know how to use body aiki.
Howard,
There's a letter to the editor in Aiki News Issue 98 by Ole Kingston. It talks about his meeting Okamoto sensei.

Mark
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