Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 05-05-2008, 06:53 AM   #1
gdandscompserv
 
gdandscompserv's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,214
United_States
Offline
The Slow Train

A common theme it seems, in acquiring "internal stregnth" is slow training. As I read Dan's tidbits it sounds like he slow trains. I know tai chi slow trains. It is also part of Systema. As I have been doing the Systema breathing excersises, I have begun to do more slow training. Slow training doesn't seem to be very active in aikido. Perhaps I need to do more slow training. It makes me 'feel' different.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2008, 07:15 AM   #2
SeiserL
 
SeiserL's Avatar
Location: Florida Gulf coast
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 3,902
United_States
Offline
Re: The Slow Train

Yes, IMHO, the fastest way to progress is slowly.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2008, 08:51 AM   #3
Budd
 
Budd's Avatar
Dojo: Taikyoku Budo & Kiko - NY, PA, MD
Location: Greater Philadelphia Area
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,000
United_States
Offline
Re: The Slow Train

Or to look at things another way - if you can't do it correctly "slow", then how likely are you going to be able to do it correctly while moving "quickly"?

Taikyoku Mind & Body
http://taikyokumindandbody.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2008, 09:08 AM   #4
wmreed
 
wmreed's Avatar
Dojo: Columbus Aikikai
Location: Columbus, OH
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 107
United_States
Offline
Re: The Slow Train

Doesn't this also parallel the concept behind learning to touch type? Work towards 100% accuracy at a slow pace, increasing speed as proficiency allows?

William M. Reed
Columbus, OH USA
wmreed@columbus.rr.com
"I'm not the author William Reed -- yet."
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2008, 09:51 AM   #5
Haowen Chan
Location: Pittsburgh
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 91
United_States
Offline
Re: The Slow Train

I think it's actually more like the exercises in physical rehab, say after a serious accident, where you do really simple actions really slowly because you're learning how to move again after your arm got reattached backwards.

If a healthy person looked in and saw these guys moving slowly and getting huge gains, and decided, "ok, I'll train slowly like them", then he's just going to look kinda funny and not get the same gains. You have to know what's being trained to know why it's slow.

Last edited by Haowen Chan : 05-05-2008 at 09:56 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2008, 10:59 AM   #6
gdandscompserv
 
gdandscompserv's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,214
United_States
Offline
Re: The Slow Train

Quote:
Haowen Chan wrote: View Post
You have to know what's being trained to know why it's slow.
I'm not so sure about that. I think as one trains slowly he will feel what it's doing to his body and thereby learn what is being trained. As to the details of why slow training is advantageous, I'll leave that to the experts.
I am curious to hear your perspective on "what's being trained," though. I am an eager learner.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2008, 11:08 AM   #7
DonMagee
Location: Indiana
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,311
United_States
Offline
Re: The Slow Train

I'm a big fan of slow training when you first learn something new. It helps solidify the movement into your mind. I see too many people try to do things at speed the first time out and just end up fumbling badly.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2008, 12:28 PM   #8
phitruong
Dojo: Charlotte Aikikai Agatsu Dojo
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,944
United_States
Offline
Re: The Slow Train

I trained slow because I can't think fast. some people are just internally dense.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2008, 02:12 PM   #9
Nafis Zahir
 
Nafis Zahir's Avatar
Dojo: Bucks County Aikido
Location: Pennsylvania
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 425
United_States
Offline
Re: The Slow Train

I often tell people who are shodan and above and trying to blow through a technique, only to find out that they're not really doing anything, that it is alright to slow down. Most of the time, they give me a look like I've said something strange. But then the idea kicks in and they get it.

  Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2008, 05:41 PM   #10
Stefan Stenudd
 
Stefan Stenudd's Avatar
Dojo: Enighet Malmo Sweden
Location: Malmo
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 539
Sweden
Offline
Slow makes fast

I believe that slow training is the way to learn how to do things fast. In really slow training, even the minutest details are polished, and your body gets very well acquainted with the technique.

It is also a good way of discovering weak spots or moments in the technique. When you do it fast, you easily just rush past weaknesses.
That is true for every aikido technique. Also in the sword arts. Try to do basic suburi exercises very slowly, and you will discover weaknesses that you were not aware of when doing them in normal speed.

A friend of mine trained karatedo almost only in slow-motion. Even the high kicks, such as jodan mawashigeri. After some time of such training, he was able to do the techniques extremely fast, without losing the least of their precision.

Indeed, slow is the way to fast.

Stefan Stenudd
My aikido website: https://www.stenudd.com/aikido/
My YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Aikidostenudd
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2008, 05:54 PM   #11
Lyle Bogin
Dojo: Shin Budo Kai
Location: Manhattan
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 588
United_States
Offline
Re: The Slow Train

What seems like about a billion years ago I took my ikkyu exam and received a gift from Imaizumi Sensei's most senior student, Donna Carlson.

It was a small plastic case, with a sticker on the top of Boris setting up a "secrets" stand with Natasha (of Rocky & Bullwinkle). Inside was a small resin carved turtle. I asked her what it meant and she said "you'll understand when you're older".
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2008, 07:17 PM   #12
Budd
 
Budd's Avatar
Dojo: Taikyoku Budo & Kiko - NY, PA, MD
Location: Greater Philadelphia Area
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,000
United_States
Offline
Re: The Slow Train

As for the "what" that's being trained slowly - one little bit at a time. Right now I'm trying not to use any force generated from my arms and shoulders - none, zip, nada. If I rush through something, then I'm guaran-darn-teed to use bad muscle force . . .

Taikyoku Mind & Body
http://taikyokumindandbody.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2008, 07:25 PM   #13
mwible
Dojo: Aikido of Suenaka-Ha in Greater Richmond
Location: virginia, U.S.A.
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 136
United_States
Offline
Re: The Slow Train

My Sensei always stresses that "if you can do it slow, then the speed will come when you need it to" so we all try and go through our techniques slowly. Although i do speed it up, with those at my level or higher, on the occasion just to test myself and see how everything comes together in a faster situation.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2008, 07:54 PM   #14
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Team Combat USA
Location: Olympia, Washington
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
United_States
Offline
Re: The Slow Train

I guess it depends on your reason for training and your desired endstate. I personally have not found that slow training lends itself to making things work at full speed/non-compliance.

Not saying that training slow and deliberate is not important, but I disagree that it will lead to so called "full combat speed effectiveness".

It is like running long, slow distance. If you do that, you produce a long slow runner.

The only way to be fast is to train at that speed.

I think you need to do both.

  Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2008, 08:30 PM   #15
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: The Slow Train

If you want to train externally with muscle go for it. Fast explosive power can be trained that way.

If you want to train internally your are never...going to get it that way. That's it, and thats all.
You have to train slowly to re-train the way you use your body. In fact I'd advocate and do extremely slow training to burn it in, and also to make no steps in awareness. Over time you can start to ramp up the speed and monitor that you are not firing shoulders and chest or chambering the hips. The end result is the same -to be moving smoothly and extremely fast in quick positional change-ups and delivery power, whether it be in strikes, or throws or chokes.
So while I tend to agree with Kevin, I would never go down that road till after I spent a whooole lot of time retraining. This stuff is for the guy with a long view. A real thinker. It isn't for a meathead or some person just discovering the realities of real fighting who is all enamored of a grappling and feels a need to roll.
So here is the same ol me singing the same old tune. Aiki training first! But if you don't know how to fight or have trained to fight-than you don't know how to fight. Period.

That said in the end the internal guy, who will then take the time to learn to actually fight his way out of a paper bag, or had previously learned to fight and then learned internal power will be the best fighter over the long term, In the end his power will go up. The other guys will just grow old. Away from fighting, he will outwork, outlast and remain healthier as well. It's a win win.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2008, 08:30 PM   #16
gdandscompserv
 
gdandscompserv's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,214
United_States
Offline
Re: The Slow Train

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
The only way to be fast is to train at that speed.
Kevin,
I'm not completely convinced of that. Slow training seems to work on one's ligaments and internal structure in ways that fast training does not. Perhaps one can become 'faster' through slow training. You are suggesting that if I train slowly I will lose speed. I want you to convince me this is true. I'm not sure your runner analogy is appropriate. I'm not saying you're wrong, I just want you to convince me.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2008, 08:36 PM   #17
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: The Slow Train

He said train both.
A more appropriate way to express the model is to train clean slowly, until things are burned in then increase the speed till you are training at full speed. Eventually you simply most train at full speed to be successful at speed. That is a good model even for external martial arts. Only an idiot gows at it full speed all the time.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2008, 08:54 PM   #18
gdandscompserv
 
gdandscompserv's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,214
United_States
Offline
Re: The Slow Train

Ah, leave the speed to the kids. I'm experimenting with this slow train right now and I won't let you rush me. Actually Dan, you're not gonna get an argument out of me. I think you got it pretty well figured out so I usually pay attention. I'm just not completely convinced that one doesn't get a speed gain from training slowly.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2008, 09:16 PM   #19
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: The Slow Train

Well No, First of all I'm just another bum on the budo bus. Its why i don't teach. Second. you missed that for the most part I agree with you. The path to tryl clean speed is in slow training. That said if all you EVER do is low training, you really will never understand power -at- speed. Speed has its own lessons to learn.

I still train slow motion every single day I train speed every singe day. I train at contact speed twice a week for hours on end. I haven't met anyone who tells me I'm slow. YMMV.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2008, 11:46 PM   #20
Stefan Stenudd
 
Stefan Stenudd's Avatar
Dojo: Enighet Malmo Sweden
Location: Malmo
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 539
Sweden
Offline
Both, of course

Of course we need to train both slowly and fast. I was pointing out the importance of slow training for learning to do it fast, not excluding the latter.

In some way, surely, fast training is good for learning to do it slowly

Similarly, gotai, static training, is important for learning proper jutai (and kinagare). If we never practice how to do the aikido technique when somebody has grabbed us strongly, we probably get quite sloppy techniques.
And just to avoid misunderstandings: we should not practice gotai only

Stefan Stenudd
My aikido website: https://www.stenudd.com/aikido/
My YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Aikidostenudd
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Poll: How often do you train in your regular street clothes in your aikido practice? AikiWeb System AikiWeb System 5 08-04-2007 07:51 PM
Poll: If you didn't train at all as uke, would you still be training aikido? AikiWeb System AikiWeb System 20 11-01-2005 12:25 PM
Ki; How do you train your Ki? ronin_10562 General 120 04-30-2001 06:56 AM
How many hours to Train? Lisa General 4 09-08-2000 02:13 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:19 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2024 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2024 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate