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Old 03-18-2003, 07:15 AM   #26
ian
 
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P.S. I have heard that there is a book with lots of physical tricks (including this one) in it - I expect that would explain it better than the supposition in this article.

My theory about this trick was that the same process as unbendable arm was used i.e. you push (extend) along the jo as they exert force, making it difficult for them actually to push directly against it. If this is so, it is an excellent example of aikido, because that is what we do in all of outr body movement.

---understanding aikido is understanding the training method---
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Old 03-18-2003, 07:56 AM   #27
aiki_what
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I think a significant amount of behavorial conditioning goes on in Aikido at a variety of levels (social, physical, mental, etiquette, etc) which leads to a conditioned response between both uke and nage...particularly at the advanced levels.

I think that this contributes as much as anything to the mystical/ no touch / effortless throws we read/encounter in AIkido culture. Hmmm, an interesting sociological study in a cooperative culture?
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Old 03-18-2003, 08:25 AM   #28
happysod
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Mark, agree with you on this one, that's why I like training with beginners. They don't always react how you'd expect (turning into the painful position rather than away, staring interestedly at the blow coming for their face etc.)

Speaking purely for myself, at least some of the "effortless" throws performed with me as uke have been down to a foreknowledge of what comes next... Where would you draw the line between being "on the train" for your own protection and "diving" and is this what the picture's showing - not a trick perhaps but a recognition on the attackers' part of what that nice little 'ol man will do if you try and be clever...
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Old 03-18-2003, 11:45 AM   #29
otto
Dojo: Independent
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Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury (Peter Goldsbury) wrote:
My understanding is that the Founder never instructed his ukes what to do and how to take ukemi. He called thenm up and threw them. If they were good, he used them again; if not, he used them less often.
Mr.Goldsbury.

Could you please elaborate a bit more on the possible basis of how the founder deemed one student good or not for demonstrating techniques/principles?

I assume before hand that the student needed to have good ukemi and provide a powerful and sincere attack , but would that be enough to differ his various students? , because at this stage i think the technical level on those aspects would be very much the same between them.

Best Regards and sorry for the Off Topic.

Plus KI!

"Perfection is a Process"
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Old 03-18-2003, 12:44 PM   #30
DGLinden
Dojo: Shoshin Aikido Dojos
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Mr Wilson,

I thought I was very clear. Osawa was not touching me. I could not get up. He held his had 12 inches above my chest and motioned me to rise. I could not. I believed he was standing on my gi. I looked at both his feet. He was not standing on my gi. I looked up and he motioned again and again I could not gt up and then realized what he was doing. He smiled and moved his hand away. I was then able to rise.

Then he did it again.

I was then nidan and not a novice. My teacher was with me and when I sat down he was indignant and mouthed "thats Bu-- sh--! NOBODY can do that" Osawa Sensei must have caught the look because he called him up to uke then and pinned him the same was, as well.

I am not a believer in magic, mysticism, or 'the force, Luke' I teach the old hard way and do believe in boimechanics. Go figure. But I know that there was something else there, then, and wish you the benefit of someone blessing you someday. I guess there is no other way to believe.

Daniel G. Linden
Author of ON MASTERING AIKIDO (c) 2004
Founder Shoshin Aikido Dojos
www.shoshindojo.com
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Old 03-18-2003, 03:13 PM   #31
siwilson
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Interesting, but I guess I need to put my fingures in the wound first.

I have seen some amazing things from some amazing people over the years, so I will not discount anything, but I am very much a realist.

Best wishes.

Osu!
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Old 03-19-2003, 01:03 AM   #32
batemanb
 
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Quote:
Daniel Linden (DGLinden) wrote:
Mr Wilson,

I thought I was very clear. Osawa was not touching me. I could not get up. He held his had 12 inches above my chest and motioned me to rise. I could not. I believed he was standing on my gi. I looked at both his feet. He was not standing on my gi. I looked up and he motioned again and again I could not gt up and then realized what he was doing. He smiled and moved his hand away. I was then able to rise.
I have seen and experienced something very similar. Nakao Sensei (Aikikai 6th Dan, deshi of Yamaguchi Sensei) did much the same thing to me in Japan a few years back, I have also seen Endo Sensei do the same. Nakao Sensei did in fact get everyone to try it for a while during the class. I have only really practiced it that one time (although I have played with it for a few seconds every now and then), I have no way to explain it other than it has to do with the connection between tori and uke. When I do it, it only seems to work when uke is flat on his back trying to sit up, if uke tries rolling out of it, I can't stop them, however, I couldn't roll out of it when Nakao Sensei did it to me, go figure.

Regards

Bryan

A difficult problem is easily solved by asking yourself the question, "Just how would the Lone Ranger handle this?"
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Old 03-19-2003, 02:44 AM   #33
Bronson
 
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My old tai chi instructor used to catch punches blindfolded. He would let you bring the blindfold and tie it on any way you liked...he wouldn't touch it. Then you'd stand in front of him and start punching FAST, any angle any rythym. He would catch every one of them. He didn't sweep them away either he would reach straight out and catch it. We once tried it with racquet balls. He batted them all away except the last one which instead of being tossed was thrown directly at his face. He caught that one

Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
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Old 03-19-2003, 06:13 AM   #34
DGLinden
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I have discussed this with several people who are active in the pursuit of knowledge concerning shamanism in Asia and South America. They all seem to accept and understand the concept. I don't know if this is reassuring to me or not. I accept that this type of power is available to those who seek it, and that the pursuit must be over many years, but - at what cost and to what benefit? I also accept the skepticism, but to no avail, I cannot deny the experience.

Glad that others have had the chance to feel it.

Daniel G. Linden
Author of ON MASTERING AIKIDO (c) 2004
Founder Shoshin Aikido Dojos
www.shoshindojo.com
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Old 03-19-2003, 07:00 AM   #35
Cyrijl
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I think the phantom pinning is due to your psychological conditioning in the face of authority. You knew you were not expected to get up so you didn't let yourself get up. If the teacher could stop people without touching them, he would be ruler of the world. Creating and spreading peace by being able to stop violent enemies without physical confrontation...

melior est canis vivus leone mortuo
Bog svsami!!!
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Old 03-19-2003, 08:18 AM   #36
Edward
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Quote:
Bryan Bateman (batemanb) wrote:
When I do it, it only seems to work when uke is flat on his back trying to sit up, if uke tries rolling out of it, I can't stop them, however, I couldn't roll out of it when Nakao Sensei did it to me, go figure
A Hombu instructor did it to me and asked me to stand up. The first time I couldn't. The second time, I rolled out of it. The instructor looked at me scornfully because he specifically asked me to try to stand up, not to roll.

As to the explanation, I think it's very simple. When you're lying flat on your back, you need to gather some momentum in order to stand up. If one puts their hand in front of your face at exactly the distance required for you to gather the momentum, you will feel helpless. I think the distance is very important. Too close and you can push the hand up with your forehead, too far and you can gather your momentum. No magic involved
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Old 03-19-2003, 09:34 AM   #37
Choku Tsuki
 
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Quote:
Mark Mueller (aiki_what) wrote:
I think a significant amount of behavorial conditioning goes on in Aikido at a variety of levels (social, physical, mental, etiquette, etc) which leads to a conditioned response between both uke and nage...particularly at the advanced levels.

I think that this contributes as much as anything to the mystical/ no touch / effortless throws we read/encounter in AIkido culture. Hmmm, an interesting sociological study in a cooperative culture?
Mark, you nailed it on the head. I try to 'believe' in as little as possible. To me 'believing' means either one has given up the search or one is more comfortable with a lie than the truth. And words just frame a perception; I prefer to experience these things myself and try to remain open to new things.

--Chuck
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Old 03-19-2003, 12:19 PM   #38
Erik
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Edward, you are very close to right.

To anyone who is interested please try the following:

1) Lay down face up.

2) Make sure your feet and arms are not touching anything other than the floor.

3) Try to rise straight up.

I will be extending my ki from California, and it's SO POWERFUL that you will not be able to get up.

If you wander into a gym, on the other hand, you will see lots of people doing this exercise. It's called a crunch. It's a good stomach exercise too.

Without momentum you will not be able to get up.
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Old 03-19-2003, 12:32 PM   #39
aiki_what
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Erik....Damn you!!! Let me up this minute!!!
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Old 03-19-2003, 04:11 PM   #40
siwilson
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Dorian Yates told me to tell you that your Ki is weak!


Osu!
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Old 03-19-2003, 11:42 PM   #41
bob_stra
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Quote:
Si Wilson (siwilson) wrote:
Dorian Yates told me to tell you that your Ki is weak!

His body parts are still functional? ;-)

(that man has had more injuries then...well...other men I guess)
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