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Old 01-23-2019, 10:10 AM   #2051
observer
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Markus Rohde wrote: View Post
That was Haga Sensei, at that time he was a 24 years old All-Japan-champion in Kendo.
Thank you and I would be very grateful for the source from which this information comes from.
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Old 01-23-2019, 01:33 PM   #2052
shizentai
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Markus Rohde wrote: View Post
Maybe there are some valuable movements, but they don't exist only in tenshin aikido, and what I see is sometimes inconsistend to the system of aikido, there are breaks between the handdeflections and the follow-up techniques, which are just normal aikido, and not performed on al very high Level, they are not more practicable for fighting situations then techniques from other "styles".
For example in kote-gaeshi, uke can punch in nages face because throwing is too late and nages position is in front of uke, instead of staying behind him, and things like this.
It is ok that they do what they do, but it doesn't amaze me, and there is no reason to make that noise.
They're not merely valuable movements, they're crucial to practicality. Tenshin deflections aren't explicitly taught in any other Aikido style, and they certainly aren't drilled. Uke nagashi is a system onto itself, which needs to be studied, because it teaches practicality.

What use is your Aikido if you can't enter into a technique? Tenshin covers that better than any other Aikido branch, as it is far more developed in that department.
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Old 01-23-2019, 04:47 PM   #2053
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

I think that It is important to confront in this topic these two opinions below:

Quote:
Dan Rubin wrote: View Post
Interview with Gozo Shioda by Stanley Pranin, Aiki News #93 (Fall 1992):...Ueshiba Sensei answered, "I can't show false techniques to the Emperor. Basically in aikido, the opponent is killed with a single blow. It's false if the attacker is thrown, leisurely stands up, and attacks again....
Quote:
Markus Rohde wrote:
He did not create a combat system, but a body education system.
They seem extreme or even contradictory. Usually, people think about Aikido somewhere in between. In my opinion, they are compatible with each other. Indeed, Aikido is not a combat system nor a fighting art, but the art of killing with one blow. Similarly, to achieve this skill, you must create your trained reflexes, which is actually the education of the body.

Based on sources in English (mainly, the Stanley Pranin's archive), two the most influential pupils of O'Sensei, Koichi Tohei and Gozo Shioda, agreed that they did not understand Master's art or even what he said about it. On the basis of what they observed, they created their "own Aikido", which he did not object to. However, there are reports that Morhei Ueshiba watching the Koichi Tohei's class several times stated that this is not "his Aikido". In fact, what we practice today as Aikido is the result of their development.

Someone can ask - how can you kill with one blow? There are two options. When we descend from the attack line, e.g. by tilting the torso, we follow the attacking hand. In the first case, and this applies to most Aikido techniques, we make the attacker stand on his toes. It can be done e.g., by placing a pin to raise his elbow vertically upwards to straighten him up. The elbow pulled down pulls the head behind and then the whole body. In the second case, we turn the attacker's body back around the axis of his hips. If we stop the attacker's hand so that the head does not touch the ground, then we are talking about training or self-defense. If we do not stop it, the attacker should break his neck.
 
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Old 01-24-2019, 09:15 AM   #2054
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Aikido does not work in a fight because nothing works in a fight. What does winning prove...nothing. Aikido works in self defense because it helps to keep one safe. Using whatever we need to use to get though situations and then dealing with the aftermath of violence is the real challenge.

A fight...who wins....who cares???

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Old 01-24-2019, 09:36 AM   #2055
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Maciej Jesmanowicz wrote: View Post
Aikido is not a combat system nor a fighting art, but the art of killing with one blow.
Nobody who trains Aikido, has ever "killed with one blow". So how can you say that?

Quote:
Aleksey Nikolaevich wrote: View Post
Tenshin deflections aren't explicitly taught in any other Aikido style
There are others, which do the same job.

Quote:
Aleksey Nikolaevich wrote: View Post
Uke nagashi is a system onto itself, which needs to be studied, because it teaches practicality.
So it is not Aikido?
It seems to come from outside, maybe it's hubud lubud from kali or some other filipino martial art. Maybe thats why it seems to be somehow inconsistent with aikido's training techniques.

Last edited by MRoh : 01-24-2019 at 09:42 AM.
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Old 01-24-2019, 10:06 AM   #2056
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Markus Rohde wrote: View Post
Nobody who trains Aikido, has ever "killed with one blow". So how can you say that?
What about O'Sensei? Did he killed anybody during practice?
BTW. In the absence of a response about Haga Sensei, I searched the Internet and found a discussion in this forum in which I myself participated (?!).
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25117
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Old 01-24-2019, 10:47 AM   #2057
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

http://members.aikidojournal.com/pub...oshi-tamura-1/
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Old 01-24-2019, 11:05 AM   #2058
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Here is a part of the discussion to which I gave the link:

"Ellis Amdur, Location: Seattle
Re: Who was the naval officer?
Haha was born in 1908. He started kendo at the age of 18 (1926), one year after the 'enlightenment incident.' Per Stan Pranin, he had some kind of a 'match' with Ueshiba in 1933. "
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Old 01-24-2019, 12:59 PM   #2059
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Markus Rohde wrote: View Post
There are others, which do the same job.
I've never seen any style except Tenshin use a well-developed deflection system to allow Aikido to work at close range. Feel free to show me proof of your claims.

Quote:
So it is not Aikido?
Ikkyo is also a system onto itself. Is it not Aikido?

Quote:
It seems to come from outside, maybe it's hubud lubud from kali or some other filipino martial art. Maybe thats why it seems to be somehow inconsistent with aikido's training techniques.
It's perfectly consistent and connects to many Aikido techniques. You clearly have not put even a miniscule bit of effort in learning about Tenshin Aikido or its deflections, but you're quick to criticize and resist.

Lazy attitudes like yours, is why Aikido failed to evolve.
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Old 01-24-2019, 03:50 PM   #2060
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

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Aleksey Nikolaevich wrote: View Post
Lazy attitudes like yours, is why Aikido failed to evolve.
Aikido is continually evolving. Were it not, there would be only 1 Aikido and clearly that is not the case. Tenshin Aikido, Ki Aikido, Kokikai Aikido and Tomiki Aikido are but a few of the very distinct "styles" that have evolved from Ueshiba Aikido.

Ron

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Old 01-24-2019, 04:42 PM   #2061
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
Aikido is continually evolving. Were it not, there would be only 1 Aikido and clearly that is not the case. Tenshin Aikido, Ki Aikido, Kokikai Aikido and Tomiki Aikido are but a few of the very distinct "styles" that have evolved from Ueshiba Aikido.

Ron
You just named 2 styles which are rejected by the lethargic majority of Aikido community (Tenshin & Tomiki), plus Kokikai for some reason. What's innovative about Kokikai?
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Old 01-24-2019, 05:29 PM   #2062
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Aleksey Nikolaevich wrote: View Post
You just named 2 styles which are rejected by the lethargic majority of Aikido community (Tenshin & Tomiki), plus Kokikai for some reason. What's innovative about Kokikai?
Rejected or not they're still Aikido and they evolved from Ueshiba Aikido. The point is that your supposition that Aikido hasn't evolved is flat out wrong. You need only do a little research to verify that.

Aikido is no longer a monolithic martial art. It has evolved and morphed over the years away from the root system that was Ueshiba Aikido.

Ron

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Old 01-24-2019, 06:12 PM   #2063
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
Rejected or not they're still Aikido and they evolved from Ueshiba Aikido. The point is that your supposition that Aikido hasn't evolved is flat out wrong. You need only do a little research to verify that.

Aikido is no longer a monolithic martial art. It has evolved and morphed over the years away from the root system that was Ueshiba Aikido.

Ron
No amount of silly gotchas on your part will change the fact that mainstream Aikido has failed to evolve in any meaningful sense, and failed to absorb very valuable contributions from the fringe sub-styles which did. You can keep dancing around it all you want.

Show me any significant new technique or methodology which is new now in Aikikai or Ki Society compared to when they were founded.

Last edited by shizentai : 01-24-2019 at 06:18 PM.
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Old 01-24-2019, 06:49 PM   #2064
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

its all going to depend on the sensei and what he wants his students to learn and what he him self has added for instance at my dojo they added in tai chi as well as judo because of sensei sugawara's many travelings in his martial art journey one day i hope to add ground game from my bjj and bring a complete art all in one of stand up and ground grappling and i will just say the aikido ive learned seems to work well in stand up when i do bjj my throws really seem effective keep in mind not all aikido will work on everyone esp trained martial artist that specialize in stand up grappling but having a prior judo background its almost the exact same throws minus the ground game and when i think about that not many arts these days add in ground work or effective striking i also was a kick boxer i think every art is lacking something its up to you to make the most out of every art to add in your own arsenal
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Old 01-24-2019, 07:10 PM   #2065
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Aleksey Nikolaevich wrote: View Post
No amount of silly gotchas on your part will change the fact that mainstream Aikido has failed to evolve in any meaningful sense, and failed to absorb very valuable contributions from the fringe sub-styles which did. You can keep dancing around it all you want.

Show me any significant new technique or methodology which is new now in Aikikai or Ki Society compared to when they were founded.
You're now referring to "mainstream" Aikido and it's lack of evolution when before you insisted Aikido hasn't evolved. So which is it? Has "mainstream" Aikido failed to evolve in a vacuum ("Lazy attitudes like yours, is why Aikido failed to evolve.") while the "fringe sub-styles" have pushed the envelop out with new techniques and training methods ("failed to absorb very valuable contributions from the fringe sub-styles which did."); or has Aikido as a whole failed to evolve?

Ron

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Old 01-24-2019, 10:00 PM   #2066
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
You're now referring to "mainstream" Aikido and it's lack of evolution when before you insisted Aikido hasn't evolved. So which is it? Has "mainstream" Aikido failed to evolve in a vacuum ("Lazy attitudes like yours, is why Aikido failed to evolve.") while the "fringe sub-styles" have pushed the envelop out with new techniques and training methods ("failed to absorb very valuable contributions from the fringe sub-styles which did."); or has Aikido as a whole failed to evolve?

Ron
Sigh. You really want to keep playing dumb?

There are BJJ dojos which don't evolve, or don't even spar, or where the instructor is fraudulent. However, BJJ has a positive reputation in martial arts community because of what the bulk of it is, not because of what the fringe exceptions are. Same goes for Aikido and its reputation.

There's an exception to every rule. The rule still stands.

Please provide me evidence of evolution within Aikido as it is practiced in the vast majority of dojos around America. A single new technique introduced into Aikikai or Ki Society or Iwama or Yoshinkan for that matter, since these branches were established (even though let's face it, Yoshinkan isn't mainstream).

Last edited by shizentai : 01-24-2019 at 10:06 PM.
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Old 01-25-2019, 04:30 AM   #2067
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Aleksey Nikolaevich wrote: View Post
I've never seen any style except Tenshin use a well-developed deflection system to allow Aikido to work at close range. Feel free to show me proof of your claims.
I've been working on things like that by myself, for many years.

It partly derives from sword work, and from goju ryu karate,
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Old 01-25-2019, 05:53 AM   #2068
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Aleksey Nikolaevich wrote: View Post
Ikkyo is also a system onto itself. Is it not Aikido?
Ikkyo is not a System. It's a basic technique of aikido, and it does not derive from a martial art outside aikido.
The tenshin Aikido hand-deflections are not aikido from the origin, one can see clearly.
Have you seen Ueshiba doing this kind of movement?
I don't say it is wrong to practice like that, but aikido is a consistent system in itself.
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Old 01-25-2019, 08:48 AM   #2069
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Aleksey Nikolaevich wrote: View Post
Please provide me evidence of evolution within Aikido...
Evolution:
noun - any process of formation or growth; development:

If you want to talk about the evolution of Aikido you have to go back to the beginning, the Aikido of Morihei Ueshiba. Aikikai Aikido is not the Aikido of Ueshiba... that's evolution. The Aikido of Tomiki is not the Aikido of Ueshiba... that's evolution. The Aikido of Tohei is not the Aikido of Ueshiba... that's evolution.The Aikido of Shioda is not the Aikido of Ueshiba... that's evolution.You can drill down further and see that the Aikido of the students of those students of Ueshiba is not the Aikido of either Ueshiba or their teachers... that's evolution.

Aikido is a complex, continually evolving art. You can talk about mainstream and fringe dojos but the fact remains, it's all Aikido and it's always changing.

Ron

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Old 01-25-2019, 10:47 AM   #2070
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
Evolution:
noun - any process of formation or growth; development:

If you want to talk about the evolution of Aikido you have to go back to the beginning, the Aikido of Morihei Ueshiba. Aikikai Aikido is not the Aikido of Ueshiba... that's evolution. The Aikido of Tomiki is not the Aikido of Ueshiba... that's evolution. The Aikido of Tohei is not the Aikido of Ueshiba... that's evolution.The Aikido of Shioda is not the Aikido of Ueshiba... that's evolution.You can drill down further and see that the Aikido of the students of those students of Ueshiba is not the Aikido of either Ueshiba or their teachers... that's evolution.

Aikido is a complex, continually evolving art. You can talk about mainstream and fringe dojos but the fact remains, it's all Aikido and it's always changing.

Ron
When you claim Aikido is a "continually evolving art" which is "always changing", you have to do better than to provide a branching point that happened decades ago. LMAO.
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Old 01-25-2019, 11:03 AM   #2071
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Markus Rohde wrote: View Post
Ikkyo is not a System. It's a basic technique of aikido, and it does not derive from a martial art outside aikido.
The tenshin Aikido hand-deflections are not aikido from the origin, one can see clearly.
Have you seen Ueshiba doing this kind of movement?
I don't say it is wrong to practice like that, but aikido is a consistent system in itself.
In Daito Ryu, ikkajo was a collection of waza, not a single technique. Calling it a single technique in Aikido is what creates much confusion about the several different ways in which it must be executed based on the energy of uke. So yeah, it's a system.

It's not the only technique I'd call a "system" in Aikido. Kotegaeshi can be done with multitude of variations as well - drawing uke outside to keep out of range of his punch, folding into his wrist/elbow/shoulder directly, or making it into more of a kokyu movement.

As for what's "Aikido from the origin", that's exactly the tunnel-vision purism I'm talking about, which stops evolution of the system.

BJJ gets new techniques every 3 months, and nobody's whining about Helio Gracie not doing those techniques. But Aikido is treated like a museum artifact frozen in amber, which keeps it perpetually out of date with modern sensibilities.

I heard that Tenshin deflections were adapted by Seagal's teacher after he had to deal with challenges from American soldiers. Whether true or not, that evolutionary path makes sense to me, because in the West, people box, and without those deflections, Aikido is very vulnerable to boxing attacks.

As for "consistency" of Aikido, that is a whole different bag of worms. O Sensei wasn't a god, and he didn't create a perfect system. Just how perfect is Aikido, if it claims to subdue people without harming them, and yet it's chock-full of Daito Ryu techniques which are only effective when you go into full rip-and-tear mode?

Try executing a nikkyo against a resisting attacker - either your gentle application won't work, or you have to snap it on fast enough to where they yelp and come this close to breaking their bones. You have to be SEVERE in real life with Aikido to make any of its techniques work, due to its tendency to not use grips to stabilize connection with uke. The connection is fleeting, so you have to pack it all into one explosive movement. Nevermind the fact that you have to use a lot of atemi.

So yeah, Aikido is a big mess of a contradiction, and it could certainly use a thoughtful evolution. From everything I've seen from Tenshin Aikido, it is by far the best candidate to go in that direction. It doesn't shy away from the speed necessary to make Aikido functional, it deals with modern attacks, and yet it maintains non-competitive and flowing nature of Aikido, keeping a balance between practical and spiritual, thus remaining unmistakably Aikido.

Unlike Realni Aikido, Tenshin is elegant and well thought-through. Every modification they made to standard Aikido, makes sense.
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Old 01-25-2019, 11:48 AM   #2072
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Aleksey Nikolaevich wrote: View Post
When you claim Aikido is a "continually evolving art" which is "always changing", you have to do better than to provide a branching point that happened decades ago. LMAO.
Actually, I don't. It's up to you to demonstrate that your claim that Aikido it a monolithic art that doesn't change over time is correct. This you have not done. I have given you examples of Aikido's metamorphosis since the founder and you have done nothing to show otherwise.

The so called branching points that you are choosing to ignore have not been limited to the examples I provided but continue to this day as each generation of students matures and moves on to form their own systems of training. For instance, Imaizumi S, Maruyama S and Toyoda F all broke from Ki Society to formulate their own systems of training methods. Students of theirs have broken from them... and so it continues. You can LYAO all you want, makes no difference, reality is still reality.

Ron

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Old 01-25-2019, 12:20 PM   #2073
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
Actually, I don't. It's up to you to demonstrate that your claim that Aikido it a monolithic art that doesn't change over time is correct. This you have not done. I have given you examples of Aikido's metamorphosis since the founder and you have done nothing to show otherwise.

The so called branching points that you are choosing to ignore have not been limited to the examples I provided but continue to this day as each generation of students matures and moves on to form their own systems of training. For instance, Imaizumi S, Maruyama S and Toyoda F all broke from Ki Society to formulate their own systems of training methods. Students of theirs have broken from them... and so it continues. You can LYAO all you want, makes no difference, reality is still reality.

Ron
Twice, I challenged you to show me a single technique that was added to any of the major Aikido branches (aka the branches in which the vast majority of Aikido students train) since their founding. You've evaded this question continuously through wordplay. I accept your forfeit.
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Old 01-25-2019, 01:04 PM   #2074
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Aleksey Nikolaevich wrote: View Post
Twice, I challenged you to show me a single technique that was added to any of the major Aikido branches (aka the branches in which the vast majority of Aikido students train) since their founding. You've evaded this question continuously through wordplay. I accept your forfeit.
And twice I have pointed out to you that the main Aikido branches are not the sum total of Aikido.

Regarding technique as a metric of Aikido evolution, in your own words: "Kotegaeshi can be done with multitude of variations as well - drawing uke outside to keep out of range of his punch, folding into his wrist/elbow/shoulder directly, or making it into more of a kokyu movement." All of the variations of kotegaeshi didn't appear at once, they evolved over time. The kotegaeshi I perform today isn't the same as the kotegaeshi I learned 42 years ago. It has changed over time as I have grown older. My students, most of who have been with me for 20 years or more are experiencing the evolution of Aikido first hand. Hopefully one or more of them will carry on my legacy when I'm gone. Others will discover new ways of doing things in Aikido, other ways of training that will be imparted to their students. And I'm just one example of a fringe practitioner whose Aikido evolves over a lifetime of training and teaching. There are many more out there like me who are on their own evolutionary Aikido paths.

Evolution of Aikido is not evidenced only by the introduction of totally new "techniques" into the core syllabus. Slow gradual change of how technique is performed, how training morphs over time and the expansion of areas of application of Aikido principles all point to an Aikido that's not static and unchanging. Your discounting the Aikido outliers as the agents of change in Aikido displays a lack of vision regarding how actual change takes place within an established discipline. It doesn't happen from the top down, it's the other way around.

Ron

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Old 01-25-2019, 01:55 PM   #2075
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
And twice I have pointed out to you that the main Aikido branches are not the sum total of Aikido.

Regarding technique as a metric of Aikido evolution, in your own words: "Kotegaeshi can be done with multitude of variations as well - drawing uke outside to keep out of range of his punch, folding into his wrist/elbow/shoulder directly, or making it into more of a kokyu movement." All of the variations of kotegaeshi didn't appear at once, they evolved over time. The kotegaeshi I perform today isn't the same as the kotegaeshi I learned 42 years ago. It has changed over time as I have grown older. My students, most of who have been with me for 20 years or more are experiencing the evolution of Aikido first hand. Hopefully one or more of them will carry on my legacy when I'm gone. Others will discover new ways of doing things in Aikido, other ways of training that will be imparted to their students. And I'm just one example of a fringe practitioner whose Aikido evolves over a lifetime of training and teaching. There are many more out there like me who are on their own evolutionary Aikido paths.

Evolution of Aikido is not evidenced only by the introduction of totally new "techniques" into the core syllabus. Slow gradual change of how technique is performed, how training morphs over time and the expansion of areas of application of Aikido principles all point to an Aikido that's not static and unchanging. Your discounting the Aikido outliers as the agents of change in Aikido displays a lack of vision regarding how actual change takes place within an established discipline. It doesn't happen from the top down, it's the other way around.

Ron
I'm not discounting the Aikido outliers, I value and understand some of them more than most. However, Aikido community at large has had nearly 40 years to adapt innovations from Tenshin Aikido, and it hasn't adopted a single one. Their kick/punch deflections are crucial to applicability, and they close the BIGGEST hole Aikido has - its inability to shift from weapons range to emptyhand range, dictated by its distant origins in Daito Ryu.

Uke-nagashi alone is amazing. Nobody's bothered to adopt it. Not Iwama, not Aikikai, not Ki Society, not Yoshinkan, nobody. It remains distinctly a Tenshin movement.

Aikido has gaping fatal flaws in the system which go farther than kotegaeshi variations. Innovation is supposed to serve the goal of improvement. Side-grading instead of upgrading technique, is not innovation.

What use is the multitude of variations of kotegaeshi, if you train all of them against an exaggerated anime punch? You can keep inventing more of them, but you're not innovating anything. Invention does not imply innovation.

The irony is that 100% of pure mainstream Aikido practitioners of today will have tremendous trouble dealing with an aggressive attacker who actually throws a punch, followed by another punch, rather than a lazy overhead chop followed by nothing. The one branch of the system which offered solutions, has been summarily rejected, and Steven Seagal was vilified way before his sex scandals came out - his style was vilified for simply being "too aggressive for Aikido". He was highly skilled, and so are his high-level students.

The community snubbed its noses at a system, the practitioners of which have no trouble training with regular Aikikai - but unlike the mainstream styles, they also stand a chance of defending against an aggressive attack thrown by a sober person.

40 years of stagnation and resistance ever since that opportunity has been offered. I rest my case.

Last edited by shizentai : 01-25-2019 at 02:05 PM.
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