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Old 10-18-2005, 08:05 AM   #76
SeiserL
 
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Re: Women in the dojo...VERY politically incorrect...

Quote:
It seems some people can't get over themselves. If you got sex issues, see a therapist. We all live together, and work at it. If not then start a fire some where else. Refering to the "Silly..." which I agree with. This thread has gone no where.
IMHO, the only way to "get over" ourselves is to speak openly and finally change our mental maps about how we think everything should be. I know we think we have come a long way on this sex-role issue, but I don't believe we truly have. The biggest issue with women in th dojo is men's attitude towards them. I am a man who enjoys training with anyone that wants to train hard regardless of their gender.

If a thread, or life, goes nowhere its because people are not open to new views or change. That rigidity is more in need of a therapist than someone who is willing to speak their mind about these issues. I am a psychotherapist by profession so I speak with some expertise in this area.

If we are always "politically correct" we will never address and change the things that are "politically incorrect".

Okay, he steps off his soapbox and bows as he leaves the mat.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 10-18-2005, 11:03 AM   #77
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Re: Women in the dojo...VERY politically incorrect...

Quote:
Trish Greene wrote:
Guest Appearance,

With all respect,
Good questions. I would be glad to point out how my views relate to the topic of woman in the dojo. As the old says goes, basically, leave your ego ( both men and woman ) outside the dojo before entering the dojo. We really can't do such a thing. We can't drop who we are and pretend to walk into a utopia where everyone puts away and who and what they are. Our environment shapes who we are, society shapes who we are. To magically transform into another human being with different values and backgrounds doesn't happen. We color the dojo environment, the dojo doesn't color us. Sure we can change, over- time and through experiences. And that is at various degrees.The greatest change comes over many years, and if change does occur. I remind myself, that it is hard to teach an old dog new tricks. Simple electronic discourse with strangers about problems and issue is at best a hit and miss issue when it comes to, at best, resulting in possible change of our belief systems. Therefore, how we are brought up in society and how we think and feel influence or even dictates the dojo environment; how the sexes deal with each other.

This really is a silly topic, the battle of the sexes, has been around for ever and is discussed on thousands of other non-martial arts boards for decades. It is not a topic that is going away soon. I just hope people have the intelligence to recognize things have changed in society, and such arguments need to be updated, and discussed differently if people are truly willing to resolve the issues between the sexes. Those some people don't want change to the old argument and make them relevant to current times. By hold old arguments hostage to the past is a way to benefit a few. Maybe they feel a lose of purpose or power to keep old arguments alive instead of moving on to current issues that have evolved. The intelligent person recognizes that.

I guess adrongeny isn't a trait us Hyman's have. Men are wired differently then woman, boys differently then girls. There are expectations placed on boys and men that are different then woman. The key is to understand that and to respect it, and not simply bitch about it. Or enforce one's ego. Aikido is a martial art, as such things lend themselves to be that of men. I guess men are wired differently, and the social expectations placed upon men and possibly biological functions all shape the universal male profile, just as it is for woman. I recall a study that was done by toy makers that show no matter what they did in the manufacturing of toys, children's choices of toys where gender specific over-all. Also go to a play ground with young children and watch how children play, boys are wired differently then girls.

I think we hear much from woman about the conditions of the dojo as it is an environment that is uncomfortable for woman. I can see why, yet what we don't hear is that men often face the same issues as woman voice. Men have expectations of other men, and woman have expectations of men, i.e. no man or house husband is looked up kindly if he isn't or able to support a family. Men face a lot of issues in the dojo, that are over-looked or not seen by woman, which parallel many issues similar to woman. We are told to deal with it, and if we can't we are not men, by both men and woman. What we need to change it the expectation of the sexes. Many dojo's address that, there is little reason to address the few dojo's that don't especially when there are so many Aikido dojos.

Please take my post in a mild tone, all I want to point out is that change has resulted from the days Ozzie and Harriet, Edith, Archie, and Meathead, in society, and thus is reflected the Aikido dojo. It would be intelligent for some to move on, and the rest of us not to support archaic arguments, and thus, are silly.
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Old 10-18-2005, 12:43 PM   #78
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Re: Women in the dojo...VERY politically incorrect...

It was pointed out to me a typo I urgently need to correct. Pls. read "Hyman" as Human, in my last posting.

As I blather and babble on, I forgot to mention the role group dynamics play as well in the dojo. Group dynamics is another influential element on those training in a dojo. As much as we would like to think that the dojo dictates it's own environment, it really is society, as a result group dynamics, dictating the dojo's environment. Group dynamics plays a significant role just as the ego ( both male and female) on how we treat, interact and function with each other on the mat. This is a topic that really needs to be discussed when discussing gender conflict.

Relations between men and woman will never be without conflict. The successful opposite sex relationships will of those who find common ground and work together toward a harmonious relationship that model the elements of a successful marriage, i.e. good communication, respect all around. Those individuals that fail at this and as a result relationships with the opposite sex on or off the mat need intervention, i.e. therapy. Because then the issues are far more complex and deeply rooted then merely the inability to achieve good communication, respect and/or the other elements required for a harmonious relationship of the sexes in the dojo. In relation to what I just said, as Aikidoka should there be a line between the dojo and our daily lives? Does Aikido philosophy stop at the dojo threshold on our way out? Saddly it does for some, and I guess they are feeling alone, and thus voice so loudly. Misery loves company which might be the reason for such "Silly" people and their arguements.

With regards.
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Old 10-18-2005, 12:46 PM   #79
Trish Greene
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Re: Women in the dojo...VERY politically incorrect...

Quote:
Good questions. I would be glad to point out how my views relate to the topic of woman in the dojo. As the old says goes, basically, leave your ego ( both men and woman ) outside the dojo before entering the dojo. We really can't do such a thing. We can't drop who we are and pretend to walk into a utopia where everyone puts away and who and what they are.
Yes you can. The only thing that stops one from doing that is their own ego, which has not been checked. I am only advocating a simple respect between two human beings despite gender and race. If we cannot see our partners on the mat as gender/race despecific, how can we have harmony with them.

Quote:
Our environment shapes who we are, society shapes who we are. To magically transform into another human being with different values and backgrounds doesn't happen.
Then you have given over who you are to be shaped by people you don't agree with? Society has it's influence over you, but only to the degree that you let it influence you. Western thought is always on being "the winner" and striving towards that goal. When it takes a deeper understanding to realise that maybe the one that isn't the winner has gained much more.

I don't believe it is a silly topic. I believe it is a smaller topic that is part of a larger issue that is neither gender specific but is fully self-specific.
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Old 10-18-2005, 01:10 PM   #80
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Women in the dojo...VERY politically incorrect...

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The successful opposite sex relationships will of those who find common ground and work together toward a harmonious relationship that model the elements of a successful marriage, i.e. good communication, respect all around.
Can someone tell me what this sentence means???

Quote:
If we cannot see our partners on the mat as gender/race despecific, how can we have harmony with them.
By simply recogizing differences without making judgements about people's character based on physical attributes. I happen to be african american...I don't mind people noticing that...Its a part of who I am. I would just rather they don't make assumptions about my character based on that.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 10-18-2005, 03:53 PM   #81
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Re: Women in the dojo...VERY politically incorrect...

The closet sexists are often closet racists....
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Old 06-29-2012, 08:01 AM   #82
RuteMendes
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Re: Women in the dojo...VERY politically incorrect...

In the Dojo I attend, there are 5 men and 5 women (one of them is the teacher).
There is no gossip or that kind of environment... The main topic is almost always Aikido!
There is no diffrence at all between men and women! Everyone is treated the same and respected It's really nice!
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Old 06-29-2012, 09:50 AM   #83
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Re: Women in the dojo...VERY politically incorrect...

At our dojo, about 1/4 to 1/3 of the members are women. Sensei is a man, and 2 of the 5 other instructors are women. There are women in almost every class, and sometimes more women than men. Everyone trains together cooperatively, supporting each other and the dojo, and treating each other with respect.

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Old 07-03-2012, 04:38 PM   #84
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Freaky! Re: Women in the dojo...VERY politically incorrect...

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Anonymous User wrote: View Post
I can't believe some of these responses twisting and putting spins on things for the sake of keeping up apppearences. Jun's see no evil speak no evil hear no evil approach to the thread. Attitudes such as these are great indicators of what is wrong with Aikido and why it gets all the criticial backlashand lack of respect from so many of most other martial arts. Denial is not a river in Egypt.
Um, did you notice that with the exception of the last few posts, this thread dates to 2005? It's another Attack of the Reanimated Zombie Threads.

As for sexism in the dojo... News Flash! Film @ 11! Stop the Presses!
Er...where was I? Oh yeah. It ain't new and it ain't limited to aikido. I have trained in several dojos where there was blatant sexism. One had an instructor who hit on and tried to bed every female student. Another was a testosterone pit with an outrageous double standard against women even though the guys believed they were perfect "gentlemen." Another was patronizing to the nth degree.

Aikido dojos are microcosms for the rest of the world. Why would we expect them all to be some rarified bastion of equality and fairness? Nice people tend to group together; un-nice people do same. Find the dojo with the nice people and stay there.

And would the last person to leave this resurrected, stale old thread please turn out the lights?
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Old 07-03-2012, 09:06 PM   #85
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Re: Women in the dojo...VERY politically incorrect...

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Anonymous User wrote: View Post
I can't believe some of these responses twisting and putting spins on things for the sake of keeping up apppearences. Jun's see no evil speak no evil hear no evil approach to the thread. .
Well, it is a seven-year-old thread. Just how much attention do you think Jun should be paying to it?
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Old 07-03-2012, 09:08 PM   #86
hughrbeyer
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Re: Women in the dojo...VERY politically incorrect...

Well, that post added no enlightenment, beauty, or joy to the universe.
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Old 07-03-2012, 10:30 PM   #87
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Re: Women in the dojo...VERY politically incorrect...

It maybe an old thread but the problem isn't .
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Old 07-04-2012, 09:06 AM   #88
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Smile Re: Women in the dojo...VERY politically incorrect...

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Anonymous User wrote: View Post
It maybe an old thread but the problem isn't .
That is true. Why would we think that the Aikido world is any different from anyplace else where women must interact with men?

The best skills a woman can wield in a man's world, are assertiveness and self-confidence. Yet, we walk a fine line between being considered assertive and self-confident, and being "pushy broads" in males' point of view.

In any social environment (and the dojo, despite being a training hall, is a social environment because it's where human beings interact), we all must learn the rules of engagement, including the very biological ones of female-male interaction. Once we do, we as women can and do earn respect from men, even some of the most ardently sexist ones, without having to sacrifice who we are.

It can be a VERY challenging pas-de-deux in the process, however.
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Old 07-04-2012, 01:20 PM   #89
hughrbeyer
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Re: Women in the dojo...VERY politically incorrect...

Incidentally, I was responding to "common", not MM.
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Old 07-04-2012, 02:39 PM   #90
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Re: Women in the dojo...VERY politically incorrect...

So we now have a couple of anonymous posters making snarky comments but not actually engaging in dialogue.
AFAIK the intent of anonymous posting here is to enable a person with a specific issue to get advice w/o creating embarrassment or danger in his or her home dojo or community.
Otherwise, if you actually have something to say, may I suggest you do as the rest of us do, be who you are and stand by what you say. It is a longtime hallmark of Aikiweb. Thank you.

Janet Rosen
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Old 07-04-2012, 04:43 PM   #91
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Re: Women in the dojo...VERY politically incorrect...

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Anonymous User wrote: View Post
It maybe an old thread but the problem isn't .
That's true, but I guess I don't see any point in retroactively policing threads...does that make sense?
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Old 07-05-2012, 08:53 AM   #92
ken king
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Re: Women in the dojo...VERY politically incorrect...

There are several females students that attend the dojo I train at. I have not seen any gossiping at all. What I have noticed in some instances is a desire to prove themselves. It can be quite painful!
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Old 07-05-2012, 06:04 PM   #93
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Re: Women in the dojo...VERY politically incorrect...

Hi folks,

To the anonymous posters here who are directing their posts (which are now deleted) towards criticizing the discussion itself rather than contributing positively to the discussion itself, please read the following thread to better understand the goals of the Anonymous forum.

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4325

-- Jun

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