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Old 12-03-2016, 08:05 PM   #26
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: new book on Zen and Martial Arts

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote: View Post
No but similar texts where Herrigel was eviscerated.
The article by Benesch draws on the book he published recently (Inventing the Way of the Samurai). Shoji Yamada has also published a book, entitled Shots in the Dark -- Japan, Zen, and the West. The two books by Brian Victoria (Zen at War; Zen War Stories) are also noteworthy. There is also an earlier work, The Myth of Japaneese Uniqueness, by Peter N Dale (1986), in which he subjects D Suzuki's 'neat ideology of mystical justification' to some criticism.

My aikido teacher, the late K Chiba, practiced zen and his students did so, too (including myself -- every week on Saturday mornings immediately before practice), but he explained that he practiced zen because he could not stomach the 'militant' Shinto that Morihei Ueshiba embraced.

I have ordered Hagen Seibert's book and look forward to reading it. A review might appear if I have the time to write one.

P A Goldsbury
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Old 01-10-2017, 02:40 PM   #27
Hagen Seibert
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Re: new book on Zen and Martial Arts

And I´ll be indeed looking forward to read your review. Thanks for your interest.
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Old 01-14-2017, 11:03 AM   #28
Bernd D
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Re: new book on Zen and Martial Arts

I can fully recommend this book. I have the german original since a few years, and it gave me a lot of insights. It is concise to the point, but still pleasant to read and with good explanations. One of my most valuable martial arts books.

Congratulations on the release of the English Translation of your book.
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Old 01-30-2017, 01:52 PM   #29
Hagen Seibert
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Re: new book on Zen and Martial Arts

Thanks, Bernd, glad you enjoyed it.
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Old 01-31-2017, 09:41 AM   #30
Ethan Weisgard
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Re: new book on Zen and Martial Arts

Any plans of an e-book/Kindle version? This would be greatly appreciated!
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Old 02-01-2017, 08:04 AM   #31
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Re: new book on Zen and Martial Arts

Quote:
Ethan Weisgard wrote: View Post
Any plans of an e-book/Kindle version? This would be greatly appreciated!
Here:

Quote:
Hagen Seibert wrote: View Post
The book is available via Amazon as ebook and paperback.
https://www.amazon.com/Elements-Zen-...=hagen+seibert
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Old 02-03-2017, 12:05 PM   #32
Ethan Weisgard
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Re: new book on Zen and Martial Arts

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Here:
Great! Thank you.
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Old 03-04-2017, 02:46 PM   #33
Hagen Seibert
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Re: new book on Zen and Martial Arts

Reading through the recent posts I wonder why many people, hearing "Zen" and "Budo", then jump in at Herrigel and express their dislike.

Actually, I had his book in my hands once, but put it down after a few pages because I found it ... well ... of little inspiration to me. I never read it, so i cannot comment any further.It also had no influence on the book presented in this thread.

Nevertheless, it seems he gave some inspiration to other people. Maybe he was inaccurate, maybe the inspiration these people had through him was still positive. Thus, I would not condemn him too much.

For further discussion on Herrigel I would suggest to start a seperate thread, that would be the better place. Thanks!
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Old 03-05-2017, 10:34 AM   #34
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Re: new book on Zen and Martial Arts

re zen and aikido...reference the story of K. Chiba serving tea while O'Sensei met with D. T. Suzuki and his later comments on their conversation ie justifying the art with some form of Buddhism because no one understood the Omoto references
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Old 03-21-2017, 04:50 PM   #35
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Re: new book on Zen and Martial Arts

Hi,
The concept of Zen in Aikido doesn't seem too far streached for me from theoretical point of view. Of course we all know that O'sensei wasn't a Buddhist and didn't even like it but some concepts found in Aikido (for example ki) are found also in Buddhism, Daoism and Confucionism as Yuasa Yasuo explains in his brilliant The Body, Self-Cultivation and Ki-Energy. Another book that I can recommend on this subject would be Zen and Aikido by Shigeo Kamata and Kenji Shimizu.

Last edited by arturolczykowski : 03-21-2017 at 04:58 PM.

"The Ki that can be told is not the eternal Ki"
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Old 03-21-2017, 05:23 PM   #36
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: new book on Zen and Martial Arts

Quote:
Artur Olczykowski wrote: View Post
Hi,
The concept of Zen in Aikido doesn't seem too far streached for me from theoretical point of view. Of course we all know that O'sensei wasn't a Buddhist and didn't even like it but some concepts found in Aikido (for example ki) are found also in Buddhism, Daoism and Confucionism as Yuasa Yasuo explains in his brilliant The Body, Self-Cultivation and Ki-Energy. Another book that I can recommend on this subject would be Zen and Aikido by Shigeo Kamata and Kenji Shimizu.
Hello,

Morihei Ueshiba was certainly brought up as a Buddhist. He came from Kii Tanabe, which is on the coast, but the mountains to the north are part of the Kumano Sanzan mountains, which was a centre of Shingon Buddhism. He joined Onisaburo Deguchi of Omoto, but this religion itself is a blend of older elements, including Buddhism and even Christianity.

You will probably be aware that Yuasa wrote another book. The Japanese title is 『身体論』 (Shintai-ron) , which appeared in 1977. This has been translated as The Body: Towards an Eastern Mind-Body Theory. This was published by SUNY in 1987.

Best wishes,

P A Goldsbury
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Old 03-21-2017, 06:02 PM   #37
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Re: new book on Zen and Martial Arts

Yeah,
My bad. I meant Zen Buddihist. I am aware of his ond Omoto relation to Shingon....

"The Ki that can be told is not the eternal Ki"
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Old 03-21-2017, 06:14 PM   #38
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Re: new book on Zen and Martial Arts

What I wanted to say is that some "internal" experiences are difficult to explain and depending on our culture, language, religion and so on we tend to explain them in terms familiar to us. So someone from Jewish tradition will talk about ruah (spirit, breath) and someone from "the East" about ki, chi and so on. This is why I do not see any problem with finding Zen in aikido if for some one the experience found in aikido is the best explained in terms familiar to their tradition, religion, system of thoughts....

I hope you get my point

"The Ki that can be told is not the eternal Ki"
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Old 05-31-2017, 03:36 PM   #39
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Re: new book on Zen and Martial Arts

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David Soroko wrote: View Post
The obligatory link to the "The Myth of Zen in the Art of Archery": http://www.thezensite.com/ZenEssays/...of_Archery.pdf
I've critiqued this critique online somewhere. It might even be posted here. Shoji's critique is terrible in my opinion - fyi.

I have not read the suggested book yet, but just ordered it online and will do so. However, regarding the usual on "Zen and Aikido," I think there are some things folks should consider before they outright dismiss the concept:

- Late 19th century and early 20th century Japanese religious did not have cultural distinction between schools/traditions as we do now.
- Japan still does not have cultural distinctions between schools/traditions as we have within academic settings and/or within intellectual exercises such as discussion.
- Japanese culture, especially for the more invested, such as warriors or aristocrats, tends to be mostly influenced by whatever religious tradition is under political and economic favor at a given. There are very few equivalent examples of evangelical and/or zealot-like attachment to a given tradition.
- There were times Japanese history when Mikkyo was a dominant cultural force, but there were times when the Theravada and other Mahayana traditions, such as Zen, as well as cultic traditions that did not really survive Meiji, were also dominant cultural forces.
- The philosophical concept for a martial way, or for a means or a path to act as a technology of the self that encompasses the totality of reality and of the given practitioner, something we see in Osensei's Aikido philosophy and discourse, is reliant upon praxis developments in Chan (Zen).
- History should not really be seen as an artifact. History is an ongoing living thing. Black and white statements or clear-cut answers are things for politicians and for folks trying to sell something. Historians should define their terms, and apply them to a given time and space, and not speak out in once-and-for-all statements. Meaning, for example, we should learn to say that there was a time when some, not all, of a given warrior culture had a certain, not a universal, relationship with a given temple/shrine complex that today we'd call Mikkyo, and that Budo's history did not end with Nitobe but evolved through in via the same kind of muddy specificity.

That said, it is more outrageous to suggest that Osensei's thought and practice was totally devoid of Zen. Historically, culturally, that would be impossible. To suggest so is like an American today saying he has no influence by John Locke because Locke was not an American.

David M. Valadez
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Old 05-31-2017, 03:38 PM   #40
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Re: new book on Zen and Martial Arts

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Hagen Seibert wrote: View Post
Hi there,

my newly edited and translated book "The Elements of Zen in Martial Arts" is available.
You can get a free trial reading on the author´s hompage.
(pdf download at the bottom of the page)

http://hagen-seibert.jimdo.com/engli...ks-and-ebooks/

The sample is quite large (80 pages), though of course it is only an excerpt to give a better view if you will find it interesting enough to purchase.

The book is available via Amazon as ebook and paperback.
https://www.amazon.com/Elements-Zen-...=hagen+seibert
(The link to Amazon is also on the author´s homepage.)

Though adressing martial arts in General, the text has a special reference to Aikido (since that is where the author comes from).
Please have a look and share your comments.
Thanks for the book suggestion and congratulations on writing it!

David M. Valadez
Visit our web site for articles and videos. Senshin Center - A Place for Traditional Martial Arts in Santa Barbara.
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Old 06-08-2017, 10:22 PM   #41
bothhandsclapping
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Re: new book on Zen and Martial Arts

I've been practicing both Zen and Aikido for nearly 30 years. Here's all you need to know about the subject ... in less than three minutes.

First, Zen is not that complicated. It is a loose framework for transmitting the fundamental principle of Buddhism (Buddha nature) from a teacher to a student through a progression of insights. To that end, Zen requires three things. You absolutely need:

1.) A teaching to provide a common vocabulary for future discussions and to initially instill a skepticism about all that a student supposes to be true.
2.) An enlightened teacher to shape a student's experience (in the effort to prompt insight) and to then provide feedback to the student's responses.
3.) A practice to initially calm the student's mind and to then provide a mechanism that allows the student to reconcile the teaching with the experiences and feedback provided by the teacher. (Of course zazen (seated meditation) is the tool of choice in Zen.)

The question then, where might an Aikido practice fit within this framework?

In my mind, Aikido training might be useful in the hands of an enlightened teacher in shaping a student's experience and then providing immediate feedback. (An attack followed by a throw that is deemed spontaneous, natural and appropriate.) In a formal Zen practice, this is usually done in sanzen (a personal interview with a Roshi). So, from this perspective, you might consider an Aikido practice as 'moving Zen' - but it's definitely a stretch.

Zen and Aikido? I guess it's possible, not likely. It's just that what most call Zen is simply not.

Jim Redel BHC Aikido
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Old 06-09-2017, 09:31 AM   #42
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Re: new book on Zen and Martial Arts

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Jim Redel wrote: View Post
I've been practicing both Zen and Aikido for nearly 30 years.
so what do you actually do when you are practicing Zen? do you go into the wood and slap yourself silly to see if you make a sound? or do you go into a cave to meditate, and be prepared to beat the crap out of folks who sneak into your cave and ask questions such as "does human taste like chicken from the shark point of view?"

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 06-09-2017, 10:03 AM   #43
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Smile Re: new book on Zen and Martial Arts

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
so what do you actually do when you are practicing Zen? do you go into the wood and slap yourself silly to see if you make a sound? or do you go into a cave to meditate, and be prepared to beat the crap out of folks who sneak into your cave and ask questions such as "does human taste like chicken from the shark point of view?"
Po: Will you walk with me, Grasshopper?
Young KCC: Yes, Master. Master? The man to whom you spoke, Lee-You? Is he a confused one?
Po: What is your view?
Young KCC: He is a beggar, like the rest. I can see he is greatly in need of food. But he does not eat.
Po: He seeks to satisfy a stronger hunger.
Young KCC: He values what is worthless. (Broken pieces of pottery, which Lee-You uses to decorate a monument he is making for a public area)
Po: To you, to me, perhaps. Not worthless to him.
Young KCC: Bits and pieces that cannot be put back together.
Po: Not to understand a man’s purpose does not make him confused.

Jim Redel BHC Aikido
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Old 08-31-2017, 02:13 PM   #44
Hagen Seibert
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Re: new book on Zen and Martial Arts

Quote:
Artur Olczykowski wrote: View Post
Hi,
The concept of Zen in Aikido doesn't seem too far streached for me from theoretical point of view. Of course we all know that O'sensei wasn't a Buddhist and didn't even like it but some concepts found in Aikido (for example ki) are found also in Buddhism, Daoism and Confucionism as Yuasa Yasuo explains in his brilliant The Body, Self-Cultivation and Ki-Energy. Another book that I can recommend on this subject would be Zen and Aikido by Shigeo Kamata and Kenji Shimizu.
Thanks Artur.
I have read the book "Zen and Aikido" by Shimizu/Kamata, since I followed Sensei Shimizu´s style of Aikido at that time, and my piece is signed by him. Yet from my point of view I was not quite satisfied with the book. The part about Zen by Kamata is very profound, absolutly correct and academic in every point. The part by Shimizu is mainly picture sequences. There is little connection between both parts and Kamata´s style of writing was, for my personal taste, too academic. There is single paragraph I recall where he leaves this style and tells about personal experience, that since he practices Aikido he sometimes feels like writing with his hips.
In "The Elements of Zen in Martial Arts" my approach was to focus on a practical view, which I hope I managed to maintain at least for the first part of the book, and to directly connect anecdotes of martial experience with Zen aspects.
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