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Old 03-21-2004, 02:19 PM   #1
Tom Hooper
Dojo: Smac
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Relating Aikido to the streets

Hi again!

I was just pondering on how more experienced aikidoka relate their training methods to an attacker in the street, i recently was confronted by an idiot from my college who attempted to hit me with a punch to the face through a bit of sloppy footwork i managed to put him down gently to the amusement of his friends but i was considering how if the punch would have been more extreme how i would of used some of the aikido techniques to subdue him. Consider ikkyo from shomen-uchi, if shomen-uchi was a punch does this mean we would just have to use another technique are there ways to subdue attackers who use western methods of attack.

Ever searching Tom
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Old 03-21-2004, 03:46 PM   #2
Kensai
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'Just blend', easy to say, hard to do.

"Minimum Effort, Maximum Effciency."
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Old 03-21-2004, 03:57 PM   #3
thatoldfool
 
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I would probably do irimi "something" in that situation - likely just a straight forward tsuki iriminage.

Although, I just learned tsuki kaitenage - somewhat less "nice" (atemi to his face), but an effective, albeit somewhat more complicated move, in the end

"Best to be like water,
Which benefits the ten thousand things
And does not contend."
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Old 03-21-2004, 04:05 PM   #4
shihonage
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With Ikkyo stance, move into his punching (or boxing stance) arm from outside, until you feel resistance.

It doesn't matter that his elbow is down, don't try to get it up (impossible), just have one of your hands on it, and while you're feeling/forcing his resistance, do a tenkan and end up with a hiji-kime or ikkyo ura which you can reverse into kotegaeshi if he overpowers you.

The idea is to move in first and force him to strike, and be able to apply the ikkyo ura/tenkan to the side he's striking with.

If the ikkyo fails, switch to sankyo/shihonage/iriminage while continuing to ride his resistance and being continuously to his side or behind him.

Last edited by shihonage : 03-21-2004 at 04:09 PM.
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Old 03-21-2004, 04:06 PM   #5
aikidoc
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One of my former students did an iriminage on a person stealing a purse-quite effective. He then locked the guy out with a sankyo.
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Old 03-21-2004, 04:36 PM   #6
aikiSteve
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Re: Relating Aikido to the streets

I think one of the most effective moves on drunks-who-punch is to tenkan, then step behind them and drop both of their shoulders. That's pretty easy way to get them on the ground and be out the line of fire.

I can never remember the name of it. My wild guess is that it's called men-tsuki tenkan ushiro ryo-katadori... but the nage is doing ryo-katadori, not the uke. Anyone know the correct term?

Steve Nelson
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Old 03-21-2004, 07:06 PM   #7
stuartjvnorton
 
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Not that I'm terribly experienced, but here's what I'd try:

I'd probably go for a choke/strangle. Close distance & slip the arm, come around behind him & keep going in the same direction to take his balance backwards & put extra emphasis on the technique.

It also avoids putting him on the ground too hard so you don't accidentally crack his skull.
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Old 03-21-2004, 07:12 PM   #8
Noel
Location: Rochester, NY
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IMO, a sloppy (vs straight) punch to the face can be treated like a yokomen attack. I.e., get out of the way, and then feed into whatever technique pops in.
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Old 03-21-2004, 08:35 PM   #9
Josh Bisker
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umm ... irimi to get out of danger and see if he wants to not hit you again. there's always the "you do martial arts, huh? whatcha gonna do about THIS, mr. karate kid man?" jackass idiot that you will run into at a party or wherever, and generally trying to perform technique on them is only gonna get them or their friends riled up.

i think that a lot of the time they're just looking to see if they can tag you, and therefore feel superior in their untrained "raw prowess," or they want to see some kind of crazy bruce lee sh*t. so if you don't let them tag you by ending up suddenly quickly behind them, and you end up with your fingers pinching their nose or holding their wallet or with the palm of your hand on the side of their face or something, then that can often render the situation handled.

but you don't want to hurt some innocent dude at a party, and you don't want to get him angry enough to really try and hit you, and you don't want to incite his angry drunken rugby playing friends to try their hands at mr. karatekid man who thinks he's so tough, because someone will get hurt.

or, you know, sweep the leg!
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Old 03-21-2004, 09:20 PM   #10
Nafis Zahir
 
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You shouldn't try to predetermine a technique. It should flow naturally. As someone stated above, just blend. If you do hesitate for even a moment, never forget one thing - get of the line!

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Old 03-22-2004, 08:01 AM   #11
cbrf4zr2
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Re: Re: Relating Aikido to the streets

Quote:
Steve Nelson (aikiSteve) wrote:
I can never remember the name of it. My wild guess is that it's called men-tsuki tenkan ushiro ryo-katadori... but the nage is doing ryo-katadori, not the uke. Anyone know the correct term?
We always just referred to it as a kokyunage.

************************
...then again, that's just me.
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Old 03-22-2004, 08:55 AM   #12
Bronson
 
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Re: Re: Relating Aikido to the streets

Quote:
Steve Nelson (aikiSteve) wrote:
My wild guess is that it's called men-tsuki tenkan ushiro ryo-katadori...
Our style calls it ganmen tsuki ushiro kata hiki otoshi (face thrust backward shoulder pulling drop)

Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
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Old 03-22-2004, 11:28 AM   #13
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
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gamen tsuki ushiro nage

Yoshinkan nomenclature

I think...

Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 03-22-2004, 12:18 PM   #14
Buddy Iafrate
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Hello Ron,

That's correct from the Yoshokai terminology. Was on my 6th Kyu test last month =)

~Bud
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Old 03-22-2004, 01:54 PM   #15
Paul Sanderson-Cimino
Dojo: Yoshokai; looking into judo
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Wow! Another Yoshokai stylist! Fancy seeing you here. ^_-

6th kyu has a ganmen-tsuki ushiro-nage? I'd believe a yokomen-uchi ushiro-nage. I like that technique quite a bit. Very smooth. I've been into the yokomen-uchi techniques lately...side strike all direction (advanced) remains among my favorites, because it's just so ... yeah. Smooth. Great for learning jumping breakfalls, too. (It becomes rather natural when you realize you're upside down midair and kind of want to land in a different way...)
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Old 03-22-2004, 02:40 PM   #16
Buddy Iafrate
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Yes I'm sorry, I meant to add it was yokomen initiation rather than ganmen. Got distracted by work, oddly enough heh.

I would have to agree, the yokomen tech's on that exam were very fluid for me, at least from my perspective. Fortunately I was paired with a very consistent uke, with good strong attacks for me to work with.

Feel free to PM me, haven't caught any other Yoshokai's on here yet =)

~Bud
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Old 03-23-2004, 01:24 AM   #17
Mathias
 
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Re: Re: Relating Aikido to the streets

Quote:
Steve Nelson (aikiSteve) wrote:
I think one of the most effective moves on drunks-who-punch is to tenkan, then step behind them and drop both of their shoulders. That's pretty easy way to get them on the ground and be out the line of fire.

I can never remember the name of it. My wild guess is that it's called men-tsuki tenkan ushiro ryo-katadori... but the nage is doing ryo-katadori, not the uke. Anyone know the correct term?

Steve Nelson
We call it Ushiro Kiri Otoshi (Nishio terminology)

Happens to be one of my favorite Techniques

Mathias

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Old 03-23-2004, 01:37 AM   #18
PeterR
 
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Toss out the tenkan and you also have one of my favorite techniques - we just call it Ushiro-ate.

Someone who does not know how to fall does not want this applied on the street. Concrete and the back of the head do not mix.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 03-23-2004, 05:50 AM   #19
Mary Eastland
 
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Sounds like what you did worked great. I think one of the things folks do in Self-defense situations is second guess themselves. You reacted appropriately for the intensity of the attack.

I taught a SD seminar once where this little middle aged woman was really negative about every technique I taught. Turns out she had an encounter when she was in her early twenties. She screamed and kicked the guy who attacked her in an elevator, He ran off. When the cops showed up they told her she was lucky the guy did not have a knife instead of telling what a good job she did defending herself.

So for all her life she thought she could not defend herself. What she did was perfect, she did not get hurt at all. I believe that all the information about a situation is contained in that situation and we will be able to deal with it at the time. The right technique will arise in each occasion.

Mary Eastland
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Old 03-23-2004, 06:54 AM   #20
Ron Tisdale
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Hello to the Yoshokai folks! We still see influences from the Kushida Sensei days in the most interesting places.

I've heard his son is a really fantastic aikidoka...have any of you trained with him? One of my partners pulled him as uke on a dan test. Man, have I heard some stories!

Osu!

Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 03-23-2004, 01:38 PM   #21
Buddy Iafrate
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Osu Ron!

I've participated in clinics taught by both Kushida-sensei and Akira-sensei. I wouldn't doubt the stories, he is something to see in person, makes it look completely effortless.

Excellent speaker and teacher as well, really knows how to motivate a class. Take this all in stride, I'm unashamedly biased

~Bud
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Old 03-23-2004, 02:50 PM   #22
Tom Hooper
Dojo: Smac
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Hey guys!

Wow expect such a great response again! another question who are you guys( if i that wrong) is that a style of aikido?

I recently also found rokkyo works with a straight punch although not sure how to apply it without uke having a weapon yet

many thanks again

Tom
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Old 03-23-2004, 03:25 PM   #23
Paul Sanderson-Cimino
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Yes, Yoshokai is a style of aikido. (www.aikidoyoshokai.org) Mainly in the midwest.

Like Buddy, I've had the good fortune to attend clinics taught by Kushida-sensei and Akira-sensei. Akira-sensei is really quite incredible. He has a very easygoing but extremely energetic bearing that I think is transferred down to the rest of us. Many black belts who train frequently at the Genyokan (home dojo) find themselves slipping into "Akira-sensei-speak" when they explain techniques. ("Two points: one for shite, one for uke. First, uke make /LARGE/ cross-step in for side strike. ... " or "Shite, guide /firmly/, uke flexible.")

We have a running joke about Akira-sensei "flying". Watch him sometime, you'll see what we mean...

If you have the money, it is possible to buy a video of the 30th Anniversary demonstration from the website. It's quite a nice demo. Also, you can see my neon blue hair in the lower part of the frame, it seems. Heehee. I go with the "Genyokan buzz" these days...

Not sure if you have to be an AYANA member to get at the video. It's quite neat; runs through most of the Yoshokai curriculum, has a /stunning/ section of weapons work at the end, and also includes Kushida-sensei and Akira-sensei demonstrating their family sword style, Genbu sotojutsu.

Anyway, I'll end this tangential post here...please PM me or Buddy if you'd like to talk further. I'd love to compare notes and see how the curricula are different between Yoshokai and Yoshinkai these days. And we can probably find some good Akira-sensei stories. ^_-
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Old 03-23-2004, 03:41 PM   #24
Paul Sanderson-Cimino
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Oh, one more thing...I managed to find a video clip from the kyu techniques CD:

http://www.aikidoyoshokai.org/Techniqs/Intro.rm

Akira-sensei is in several of these segments. He's the one with the buzz-cut hair; often demonstrating with Kushida-sensei. He's the one doing the very smooth jumping breakfall at the end.
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Old 03-24-2004, 08:15 AM   #25
SeiserL
 
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IMHO and experience, in the streets you need to keep the movement direct and simple. Gross motor skill are best, fine motor skills are often lost in the adrenaline pump and dump.

It is more often the mentality of the individual, rather than style or technique, that makes the difference.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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