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Old 02-21-2003, 12:28 PM   #1
"Guest"
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Question Assistance with research please?

Hello, Aikidoists. I am not an Aikido practitioner, so please forgive me in advance if I make errors.

I am a writer, and would be most grateful if someone could assist me with a vexing problem I've encountered with my main character.

Am I right in understanding that the proficient Aikido practitioner can render a person unconscious *without* resorting to violence (e.g. throwing, punching etc)? I have a vague recollection about acupressure points, for example (I once met an Aikido practitioner who did an amazing thing with the inside of my wrist which caused me to collapse like a house of cards).

If I am correct in my assumption, would you be so kind as to give me the name of the movement and an indication of where the hand should be to affect the movement (obviously, if it is forward-facing, my protagonist can hardly approach from behind).

Many thanks in advance for any assistance you may be able to offer me.
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Old 02-21-2003, 01:19 PM   #2
shihonage
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Quote:
Am I right in understanding that the proficient Aikido practitioner can render a person unconscious *without* resorting to violence (e.g. throwing, punching etc)?
Not without a cloth dipped generously in chloroform.

...

In other news, "Kung Fu: The Legend Continues" is not Reality Television.
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Old 02-21-2003, 02:23 PM   #3
Carl Simard
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Re: Assistance with research please?

Quote:
Josephine Lewis (Jo Lewis) wrote:
Am I right in understanding that the proficient Aikido practitioner can render a person unconscious *without* resorting to violence (e.g. throwing, punching etc)?
Unconscious sounds a bit extreme. Unable to move or attack or disabling the attacker is more realistic. The talk about non violence in aikido is in perspective to other martial arts. Compared to kenpo karate, for example, aikido will looks smoother. But there is nonetheless physical contact, punchs and throw. This "non violent" perception is also probably due for a large part in the goal of aikido. In many martial arts, the goal is to pratically destroy your opponent by kicking/punching him the harder you can, trying to make as much damage as possible in the shortest time. In aikido, the goal is to take (or keep) control of your opponent by doing him the less physical damage possible. So, the goal is somewhat non violent in the sense that you don't physically hurt your opponent if you don't need to... But, if need be, you can quite easily severely wound the opponent.
Quote:
I have a vague recollection about acupressure points, for example (I once met an Aikido practitioner who did an amazing thing with the inside of my wrist which caused me to collapse like a house of cards).

If I am correct in my assumption, would you be so kind as to give me the name of the movement and an indication of where the hand should be to affect the movement (obviously, if it is forward-facing, my protagonist can hardly approach from behind).
Well, there's many technique that can cause pain as hell in your wrist... However, in the way you describe it, "kote gaeshi" may be the technique you think about.

Your hands, and the hand of the opponent, are in front of you, about the height of your belly.

The attack can come from anywhere. The art in itself is to bring these hands in front of you... Other may agree with me or not on that, as it's more a personnal evaluation, but I found that this technique is easier to do on a punch type attack (bare hand or armed) coming from the front, ideally a punch in the belly for example. The harder will be a grappling attack from behind (but it's possible to do it, just not the easiest thing to do).

For a look at this technique, give a look at the multimedia section of aikiweb, at the clip named "Chida99-2". It's a nice kote gaeshi...
Quote:
Many thanks in advance for any assistance you may be able to offer me.
You're welcome and hope that this may help you.

Last edited by Carl Simard : 02-21-2003 at 02:29 PM.
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Old 02-21-2003, 02:23 PM   #4
Alfonso
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Pressure points are not part of the basic curriculum most commonly found in Aikido.

Some folks do study them though, and post in these forums (much to some other folks' amusement).

I suggest you stick around for a while, they'll show up, and may give you more details.

I understand there's a Dr. John Riggs, who posts sometimes here that has written an article for black belt magazine on the subject(to be published)

Any discussion on the subject will be peppered with the good the bad and the ugly since it's a topic that inspires some level of heat..

Alfonso Adriasola
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Old 02-21-2003, 03:34 PM   #5
MikeE
 
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Quote:
Alfonso Adriasola (Alfonso) wrote:
Any discussion on the subject will be peppered with the good the bad and the ugly since it's a topic that inspires some level of heat..
Only from the ignorant to the uncentered.

Mike Ellefson
Midwest Center
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Old 02-21-2003, 06:32 PM   #6
mattholmes
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I imagine that when you posted, you were figuring, "Oh, I don't know aikido, but I remember this cool wrist thing. I'll ask the aikido people what 'the wrist thing' is, they will recognize it, tell me what it is, and I'll be able to use it and move on." Sorry, but I don't think that's going to work out for you.

First of all, the aikido practioner that you met could have come from any number of mainstream or more "progressive" schools, where they could have studied an array of variations that most aikido practioners might or might not recognize.

Second, there's a lot of different "wrist things" that will get you on the ground. Personally, from your description (and personal experience with what gets good appreciation as a party trick), I'm envisioning nikkyo. This is [other aikidoka: this is my own explanation; you may or may not explain it similarly] where the outside non-thumb side of the hand is grasped and rotated sort of inwards in a corkscrew twist, while the wrist is held to provide tension.

Third, I'm again sorry, but I don't see that just knowing a name is going to add much to your work. "He did nikkyo on the Bad Guy, causing the Bad Guy collapsed like a house of cards. He then... " So what do I suggest? I suggest that you take up aikido. Not too likely, but I thought it was worth a shot.

Good luck,

Matt
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Old 02-21-2003, 07:54 PM   #7
Hogan
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Re: Assistance with research please?

Quote:
Josephine Lewis (Jo Lewis) wrote:
"...I have a vague recollection about acupressure points, for example (I once met an Aikido practitioner who did an amazing thing with the inside of my wrist which caused me to collapse like a house of cards).

If I am correct in my assumption, would you be so kind as to give me the name of the movement and an indication of where the hand should be to affect the movement (obviously, if it is forward-facing, my protagonist can hardly approach from behind)....

If I understand you correctly, I think what you describe (by using the word 'acupressure') is a technique called "yonkyo". It is applying pressure on a nerve on the inside of your wrist. The nerve is about 2 inces "below" the actual bend in the wrist, on the "top" bone of the arm, and on the inside of your arm. Sometimes it is pretty hard to get, sometimes it is pretty easy.

If you want to find it on yourself, just take your thumb of your other hand and move it around the area I described on the other, until you "hit" a nerve.

Last edited by Hogan : 02-21-2003 at 07:58 PM.
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Old 02-22-2003, 02:04 AM   #8
Kelly Allen
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Yes John! Yonkyo is what I thought was being described too. Doesn't necessarily drop people though. Some times it brings them up on their toes. The use of Yonkyo,in my Dojo anyway, is used more to shock the opponent enough to help you take him off balance and initiate a technic. When practicing Yonkyo, after the third or fourth time it is applied on me, the falling house of cards is a good description of what I do. With repeated Yonkyo the nerve tends to get more and more tender, thus more painful. Ouch!
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Old 02-22-2003, 08:10 AM   #9
mike lee
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the short answer

Quote:
Am I right in understanding that the proficient Aikido practitioner can render a person unconscious *without* resorting to violence ... ?
An aikidoist can do whatever he's been trained to do with aikido or non-aikido techniques.

Generally speaking, judo is known for its "sleeper holds" in which an artery to the brain is pinched, rendering a victim unconsious until they revive or are revived. Such techniques can also lead to brain damage or death.

In aikido we use painful pins on the arms or legs. While in some cases such pins can damage the muscles and tendons, or break bones, they do not cause death.

Last edited by mike lee : 02-22-2003 at 08:15 AM.
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Old 02-22-2003, 08:00 PM   #10
aikidoc
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Josephine:

To comment, Alfonso was correct. I have been accepted by black belt magazine for publication of an article on the topic-still don't have a date yet. The article is focused on aikido striking of pressure points.

However, it is not a common aspect of aikido and is seldom taught. It is a particular interest of mine, my friend Gary Chase, and a few others practicing aikido. A few of us feel this is a lost aspect of the art. A very good book to explain the medical aspects is Dr. Michael Kelly's book: Death Touch. It explains medically what happens (vagovasal faint for example). He is not an aikido practitioner though. Causing people to black out is not a recommended practice for aikidoka or others for that matter since it has serious health implications for someone with heart disease.
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Old 02-22-2003, 10:16 PM   #11
Paula Lydon
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~~1) This isn't a standard part of Aikido training; there are other arts much more proficient in these techniques.

~~2) Anyone who truely understood this sort of technique wouldn't randomly share that info. with an unknown entity on a website. Bad karma.

~~3) You're a writer--make it up!

~~Paula~~
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Old 02-23-2003, 01:40 AM   #12
mike lee
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hogwash

Quote:
The article is focused on aikido striking of pressure points.
What aikido association or group do you belong to?

This is beginning to sound highly fraudulent. I think that various aikido associations, "Black Belt" magazine, and the town of Midland, Texas should be warned.
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Old 02-23-2003, 07:51 AM   #13
Hogan
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Quote:
Paula Lydon wrote:
~~...Anyone who truely understood this sort of technique wouldn't randomly share that info. with an unknown entity on a website. Bad karma...
Somone asks for a name of a technique and we are not supposed to do tell them ? It's bad karma ? Well, everyone here on this board and an other boards are going straight to hell, then. I didn't know aikido was so secretive.
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Old 02-23-2003, 08:51 AM   #14
Paula Lydon
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~~Hi John H.!

No, I certainly have no problem telling someone the name of any technique...but trying to tell any 'ol somebody on a website where the placement of this and that is in order to execute the technique, then no, I consider that irresponsible. But that's just me; I wouldn't teach seriously harmful techs to someone who just wanted to kick-ass nor to children who haven't developed the necessary control/understand. So yeah, bad karma. Besides, there are many books free for him to research--with pictures and everything!--that would get him further than asking this question on this site. Take care

~~Paula~~
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Old 02-23-2003, 09:11 AM   #15
Hanna B
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Josephine,

i suggest you forget about aikido and search the web for Dim Mak and/or George Dillman instead.
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Old 02-23-2003, 09:12 AM   #16
Hogan
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Quote:
"...but trying to tell any 'ol somebody on a website where the placement of this and that is in order to execute the technique, then no, I consider that irresponsible..."
This is done everyday on this and on other aikido websites. After all, all those that post here, for the most part, do not "know" everyone else - we are just people on a website who have never met (remember for the most part - I know some folks have met)

Quote:
"...I wouldn't teach seriously harmful techs to someone who just wanted to kick-ass nor to children who haven't developed the necessary control/understand...."
Well, I guess we're different - I didn't assume his woman wanted to "kick-ass", nor did I assume she was a child. I figured she said who she said she was - a writer who needed help with research for a fictional charachter on a PAGE.

Quote:
"...Besides, there are many books free for him to research--with pictures and everything!--that would get him further than asking this question on this site...."
This IS an aikido website - the "horses mouth" sort of speak.

This topic has made me think about how aikido people treat "outsiders". Someone comes in and asks a simple question, yet gets a bunch of answers unrelated to the question - and when someone gives a direct answer, someone has to object. This is not a secretive society.

Many examples are brought to my mind where someone who does not practice has asked an innocent question, and then is treated with disrespect or even insults. (NOTE - this insult comment NOT directed to this topic, but in examples brought to mind - OK maybe Mike Lee to John Riggs ). In my opninion, this turns folks off unnessesarily. If someone asks a direct question, answer directly !

Sorry, Paula - no offense, this just hit a nerve. Have a good one.... And sorry to all for my rant.

Last edited by Hogan : 02-23-2003 at 09:14 AM.
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Old 02-23-2003, 10:20 AM   #17
mike lee
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I smell a rat

Quote:
In my opninion, this turns folks off unnessesarily. If someone asks a direct question, answer directly !

Sorry, Paula - no offense, this just hit a nerve. Have a good one.... And sorry to all for my rant.
This entire thread is turning me off. I really have to wonder how many people on this thread that are providing "answers" actually even practice aikido, and if so, under what internationally recognized organization. Hell I'd settle for a nationally recognized aikido organization or even a guy that has a legitimate aikido teacher.

If this non-sense is allowed to continue, the reputation of other aikido schools will be at stake as an indirect result. If somebody is claiming to be a legitimate aikido instructor and is not qualified to be one, I think that the aikido community and the public has a right to know.

When I find out the entire truth here, I will not hesitate to expose any fraudulant activity.
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Old 02-23-2003, 12:04 PM   #18
Paula Lydon
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~~Hi Josephine!

Meant no offense to you in expressing my general opinion. I agree with Hanna that research into Dim Mak would take you farther than an Aikido approach. Good luck!

~~Paula~~
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Old 02-23-2003, 12:13 PM   #19
Paula Lydon
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~~Hi John H.!

Rant if you need to, we all have our soft spots. I certainly have nothing against 'outsiders' on Aikido websites..I'm one myself! I've been a student of MA for 16 years, only the last 6 in Aikido. I believe this site is open to all martial artists, that's one thing I really like about it. Take care

~~Paula~~
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Old 02-23-2003, 01:38 PM   #20
Erik
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Quote:
Paula Lydon wrote:
~~1) This isn't a standard part of Aikido training; there are other arts much more proficient in these techniques.
To me, this is one of the great unsolved mysteries of a particular poster who rants and raves about our deficiencies and how Morihei Ueshiba really grasped this stuff. If so, where is it in the mainstream teaching? Forgot, too secret to teach the masses.
Quote:
~~2) Anyone who truely understood this sort of technique wouldn't randomly share that info. with an unknown entity on a website. Bad karma.
Sure they will, well, actually, ya gotta pony up $100 or whatever the going seminar rate is. I'm thinking they don't do background checks so the karma issue doesn't seem to matter much?
Quote:
~~3) You're a writer--make it up!
Now there is a sound idea.
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Old 02-23-2003, 01:51 PM   #21
Erik
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Re: Assistance with research please?

Quote:
Josephine Lewis (Jo Lewis) wrote:
Am I right in understanding that the proficient Aikido practitioner can render a person unconscious *without* resorting to violence (e.g. throwing, punching etc)? I have a vague recollection about acupressure points, for example (I once met an Aikido practitioner who did an amazing thing with the inside of my wrist which caused me to collapse like a house of cards).
I've never seen it done in an Aikido class. I've never seen a shihan do it. I've never seen a clip of Morihei Ueshiba doing this. Everything I've seen done relied either on misdirection or good old fashioned spacing, movement, positioning and proper use of the body. I am assuming you are not talking about choking someone.

But hey, it's a work of fiction. It should fit right in with acupuncture and acupressure.

Long live Nicholas Linear.
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Old 02-24-2003, 04:32 PM   #22
Alfonso
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Talking see?


Alfonso Adriasola
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Old 02-24-2003, 04:55 PM   #23
Alfonso
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I've practiced Aikido for only 5 years in a dojo affiliated to ASU, whose head instructor is has been practicing Aikido under various instructors for a long time (40 years).

I passed my Ikkyu test last Dec, which made me very happy then, this ranks is registed in the ASU which hopefully means the Aikikai as well. On the other hand I doubt they would even care for a lowly mudansha

I don't know how to knock people out with pressure points, neither have I been knocked out by pp, nor have I seen this done at tje Dojo where I train.

Mike Lee: I'm very curious to know your background since you feel entitled to ask everyone to provide theirs. Since you write so much here and there, it would be nice to know why you feel so protective about Aikido, its reputation and the possible corruption of its members through exposure to ideas that could distract them from the "truth". AFAIK you don't make that information public; why?

BTW every seminar I've attended with Shihans, of the Japanese and non-japanese variety I'm confronted with the fact that I know squat about what Aikido is or isn't, though I may know a lot more than when I started.

..

one of the things I learned is that there's room enough for the good the bad the ugly and the arrogant (as well as the pious, the scholarly, the athletic, the badass, the fat stoners and the war criminals)

So, discussion tends to be interesting at least.

Alfonso Adriasola
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Old 02-24-2003, 08:48 PM   #24
aikidoc
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Mike Lee wrote: "What aikido association or group do you belong to?

This is beginning to sound highly fraudulent. I think that various aikido associations, "Black Belt" magazine, and the town of Midland, Texas should be warned."

Mike: I belong to the Aikido Association of America-a hombu affiliated dojo. My study of pressure point and atemi applications in aikiddo is my own study and has nothing to do with my organization-freedom of speech and all that American stuff.

There is nothing fraudulent about it and I'm not sure if that was in jest or serious. The article has been accepted, I do live in Midland TX and I am the aikido dojocho at Ta Ch'u Academy.

Located thoughout the aikido literature are considerable references to atemi waza and sparse descriptions by O'Sensei's students of what "appears" to be pressure point strikes. I did considerable research for the article although I had to condense it down considerably to meet Black Belt Magazine's publication criteria. It was initially about 10,000 words-I had to cut it to about 3500.
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Old 02-24-2003, 08:52 PM   #25
aikidoc
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Mike Lee:

By the way, I'm not sure what your issue is with fraudulent activity. How about providing us with your credential. Organization, etc. You seem to demand it of others.

I teach aikido and I can back my credentials up with specifics: aikikai certificate numbers, dates of rank, etc. etc. Can you? Before you start accusing others of being fraudlent you might want to present your credentials to make such claims.
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