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Old 06-24-2002, 02:12 AM   #1
mike lee
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expansion or denial?

Before one starts looking to other fighting methods to expand one's arsenal, one should carefully consider whether one is actually looking for a way to make up for one's lack of skill in aikido.

If one wants to study violence, then one should go to a dojo or gym where such things are practiced. But if one wants to study the budo of love, the art of peace, then one should seek to master aikido.

Damaging joint locks, agressive punching and kicking are the budo of violence.

Nevertheless, I know of one aikido instructor who boasts of teaching his aikido students boxing, while at the same time admitting that he can't pull off aikido techniques against bigger, stronger men. I have to wonder if he is not utilizing violent arts to make up for his lack of skill in aikido. While this individual claims to venerate O'Sensei and boasts of his lineage in the art of peace, he at the same time practices arts of violence in his aikido dojo and introduces them to his aikido students. This appears to demonstrate a major lack of understanding on this teacher's part.

Go to Hombu dojo in Japan and start throwing side kicks around or box with your partner and then watch the sensei's reaction.

Last edited by mike lee : 06-24-2002 at 02:17 AM.
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Old 06-24-2002, 06:21 AM   #2
Chris Li
 
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Re: expansion or denial?

Quote:
Originally posted by mike lee
Damaging joint locks, agressive punching and kicking are the budo of violence.

Nevertheless, I know of one aikido instructor who boasts of teaching his aikido students boxing, while at the same time admitting that he can't pull off aikido techniques against bigger, stronger men. I have to wonder if he is not utilizing violent arts to make up for his lack of skill in aikido. While this individual claims to venerate O'Sensei and boasts of his lineage in the art of peace, he at the same time practices arts of violence in his aikido dojo and introduces them to his aikido students. This appears to demonstrate a major lack of understanding on this teacher's part.
OTOH, I know a student of Morihei Ueshiba's who was also a golden gloves boxer who integrates boxing techniques with his Aikido and does so very well, thank you, "arts of violence" or not. M. Ueshiba practiced with a sword (but he I'm sure that he was very peaceful as he sliced his partners into tiny pieces...), he practiced with a bayonet - how "non-violent" is that? Iimura (a long time student of M. Ueshiba) demonstrates bayonet techniques every year at the all Japan Aikido demonstration, I assume with Doshu's blessing, since he keeps on getting invited back... .

Why is punching or kicking someone inherently more "violent" then throwing them on their head? And what's wrong with a damaging joint lock if you thereby prevent some greater injury to yourself or your opponent?

Best,

Chris

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Old 06-24-2002, 06:38 AM   #3
mike lee
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Blush! slice?

Sorry Chris. I was unaware that O'Sensei ever sliced anyone to pieces. Could you be more specific and tell me when that event took place?

I'd also like to know on what occassions he stabbed someone with a bayonet. As far as I know, he only practiced defensive techniques against bayonet attacks.

I never saw tori ever intentionally throw uke on his head.

What dojo are you practicing at?
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Old 06-24-2002, 06:48 AM   #4
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Re: slice?

Quote:
Originally posted by mike lee
Sorry Chris. I was unaware that O'Sensei ever sliced anyone to pieces. Could you be more specific and tell me when that event took place?
A sword is not a defensive weapon (unless you're on certain Japanese TV dramas, of course). If you're training with a sword you're training to slice someone into tiny pieces (in a manner of speaking.

Quote:
I'd also like to know on what occassions he stabbed someone with a bayonet. As far as I know, he only practiced defensive techniques against bayonet attacks.
Hmm, he certainly trained with a bayonet during his stint in the army. I don't know whether or not he actually stabbed anybody. It's true, he practiced mostly defensive strategies against the bayonet - not so for his training with things like the sword...

Quote:

I never saw tori ever intentionally throw uke on his head.
Well he certainly injured a number of people in training. More to the point, what do you think would happen if you threw someone with no training the way that most people are thrown in Aikido dojo?

Quote:

What dojo are you practicing at?
A couple of places, mostly Aikikai, but not completely - I even get down to that hombu place that you mentioned every once in a while to train with a well known Aikikai hombu 9th dan famous for intentionally injuring people .

Best,

Chris

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Old 06-24-2002, 07:43 AM   #5
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IMHO,most martial arts are pretty complete and hollographic in their own right. If I look deep enough, everything is everything. The intention of the observation often influences the information gathered. A punch can be a block, a lock, or a throw depending on how you apply it. There are probably more similiarities in principle than difference. Trying to undertsand one art in reference to another is often too complicated for me. It is what it is. Just relax, breath, and enjoy yourself.

Until again,

Lynn

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 06-24-2002, 08:44 AM   #6
mike lee
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What an amazing forum! People can make wild, unsubstantiated assertions about the founder of aikido in one breath, and in the next, while admitting that the assertions were wrong, continue talking complete nonsense. No wonder some people are concerned about the future of aikido.
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Old 06-24-2002, 08:56 AM   #7
Mike Haber
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Re: Re: slice?

Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Li



A couple of places, mostly Aikikai, but not completely - I even get down to that hombu place that you mentioned every once in a while to train with a well known Aikikai hombu 9th dan famous for intentionally injuring people .

Best,

Chris
That 9th Dan wouldn't happen to be Sadateru Arikawa would it?

Sincerely,

Mike Haber
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Old 06-24-2002, 03:37 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by mike lee
What an amazing forum! People can make wild, unsubstantiated assertions about the founder of aikido in one breath, and in the next, while admitting that the assertions were wrong, continue talking complete nonsense. No wonder some people are concerned about the future of aikido.
Which ones were wild and unsubstantiated? He did practice the sword (as I said), and the object of sword practice is to cut your opponent (as I said). He did practice the bayonet (as I said) - you brought up the "stabbing" yourself. Take a look at my original post - nothing I said there was inaccurate,

If you think that something that I said is "complete nonsense" then let me know what it is and we'll discuss it.

Best,

Chris

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Old 06-24-2002, 03:38 PM   #9
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Re: Re: Re: slice?

Quote:
Originally posted by Mike Haber


That 9th Dan wouldn't happen to be Sadateru Arikawa would it?
Sure would. To be fair, I've never seen him actually injure someone, although it seems as if he's mellowed a bit through the years .

Best,

Chris

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Old 06-24-2002, 08:14 PM   #10
Richard Harnack
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Square One or two comments

1. Wally Jay's Small Circle Ju-jitsu is not Aikido, neither is Aikido Small Circle Ju-Jitsu. This does not mean there are no similarities, after all the human wrist can only bend so many different ways.

2. Cross training in other arts may or may not be necessary or even desirable. However, beware of Aikidoka who have trained in other arts and insist on including their former art's techniques in Aikido and calling it Aikido. I am certain there are folk out there who will attempt to justify using handguns as long as they shoot "from their one point". Just because someone says it is so, does not mean it is.

3. I am constantly amazed at how versatile O'Sensei must have been. If I were to compile all of the alleged things he was supposed to have trained in as mentioned in the above posts, O'Sensei must have never slept. Come on, a goodly portion of his history is known, so please stick with that, not some daydream conjured up to justify a point.

4. Lastly, the whole discussion of what O'Sensei did as a young man begs the question and ignores what he became. At a very specific point in his life he changed from doing Daito Ryu Ju-jitsu and began his path in Aikido. We have many statements from him where he identifies himself with Aikido, none where he does the same for anything else. He changed and transformed himself and his art into something that had not been seen previously. The lotus is not admired for its' roots in the mud, but for its' flower.

Yours In Aiki,
Richard Harnack
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Old 06-24-2002, 08:52 PM   #11
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Re: One or two comments

Quote:
Originally posted by Richard Harnack
2. Cross training in other arts may or may not be necessary or even desirable. However, beware of Aikidoka who have trained in other arts and insist on including their former art's techniques in Aikido and calling it Aikido. I am certain there are folk out there who will attempt to justify using handguns as long as they shoot "from their one point". Just because someone says it is so, does not mean it is.
The question of whether or not cross training is valuable or not is, I suppose, not to be settled on the internet. Still, in support of cross training I would have to say:

Morihei Ueshiba cross trained
Sokaku Takeda cross trained
Both of them included techniques form other arts in their own arts
Most major figures in the history of Japanese martial arts cross trained

Of course, YMMV.

Does Yoshio Kuroiwa do Aikido? He's who I was talking about with the boxing. What about Nishio? He combines both Karate and iaido movements with his Aikido. Is what he's doing not Aikido? Some people, of course, will say not, but I tend to disagree.

Suppose that you use a police officer uses a handgun in order to protect the lives of civilians. Is that antithetical to the principles of Aikido? How is that different from using a sword?

Quote:
3. I am constantly amazed at how versatile O'Sensei must have been. If I were to compile all of the alleged things he was supposed to have trained in as mentioned in the above posts, O'Sensei must have never slept. Come on, a goodly portion of his history is known, so please stick with that, not some daydream conjured up to justify a point.
I don't know if that was addressed to my comments or not, but his training in both the sword and the bayonet are very well documented and supported, hardly a "daydream".

Quote:
4. Lastly, the whole discussion of what O'Sensei did as a young man begs the question and ignores what he became. At a very specific point in his life he changed from doing Daito Ryu Ju-jitsu and began his path in Aikido. We have many statements from him where he identifies himself with Aikido, none where he does the same for anything else. He changed and transformed himself and his art into something that had not been seen previously. The lotus is not admired for its' roots in the mud, but for its' flower.
He practiced with offensive weaponry (ie, the sword) until the day he died...

I'm not saying that he didn't create a purpose in his training that was seperate from Daito-ryu, but I would argue against the preposition that there is a built in techical ethic inherent in Aikido technique that is cannot be present in, for example, a striking art.

Best,

Chris

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Old 06-25-2002, 12:29 AM   #12
mike lee
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a word from the master

Let's let O'Sensei speak for himself.

From "The Aikido FAQ" Web site at www.aikidofaq.com.

An interview with Morihei Ueshiba O Sensei and Kisshomaru Ueshiba
The interview, conducted by two unnamed newspapermen, appeared in the Japanese-language text "Aikido" by Kisshomaru Ueshiba, Tokyo, Kowado, 1957, pages 198-219. It was translated from Japanese by Stanley Pranin and Katsuaki Terasawa.

Excerpt:

Q: It is said that Aikido is quite different from Karate and Judo.

O Sensei: In my opinion, it can be said to be the true martial art. The reason for this is that it is a martial art based on universal truth. This universe is composed of many different parts, and yet the universe as a whole is united as a family and symbolizes the ultimate state of peace. Holding such a view of the universe, Aikido cannot be anything but a martial art of love. It cannot be a martial art of violence. For this reason Aikido can be said to be another manifestation of the Creator of the universe. In other words, Aikido is like a giant (immense in nature).

Therefore, in Aikido, heaven and earth become the training grounds. The state of mind of the Aikidoist must be peaceful and totally nonviolent. That is to say, that special state of mind which brings violence into a state of harmony.

And this I think is the true spirit of Japanese martial arts. We have been given this earth to transform into a heaven on earth. Warlike activity is totally out of place.

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Old 06-25-2002, 12:46 AM   #13
Chris Li
 
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Re: a word from the master

Quote:
Originally posted by mike lee
Q: It is said that Aikido is quite different from Karate and Judo.

O Sensei: In my opinion, it can be said to be the true martial art.
No offense to Stan Pranin, but M. Ueshiba often uses this phrase, and he never says "the" for the simple reason that there is no "the" in Japanese. Consider the difference:

1) Aikido is the true martial art.
2) Aikido is true martial arts.

The implication, as you can see is quite different. The first one implies that Aikido *exclusively* is the true martial art (ie, Aikido is the one true martial art). The second one implies that Aikido follows the true spirit of the martial arts but leaves room for the possibility that other martial arts may also follow that spirit (ie, Aikido is one of many true martial arts, or Aikido is a true example of the martial arts).

I've read a lot of what M. Ueshiba wrote in the original Japanese, and in every instance that I can recall he seems to mean "true" in the second sense of the word.

Quote:
And this I think is the true spirit of Japanese martial arts. We have been given this earth to transform into a heaven on earth. Warlike activity is totally out of place.
I think this supports my supposition. He doesn't say "only Aikido represents the true spirit of the Japanese martial arts" he says that he believes that the art of peace is the true spirit of the Japanese martial arts - IMO that means that this spirit is not necessarily limited to the art of Aikido.

He says "warlike activity is out of place". He doesn't say that "striking" (for example) is out of place. The fact that he practiced the sword assiduously until the day he died says to me that he didn't even consider non-defensive, potentially destructive activity to be out of place, in the correct circumstances.

Best,

Chris

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Old 06-25-2002, 08:42 AM   #14
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Re: Re: Re: Re: slice?

Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Li


Sure would. To be fair, I've never seen him actually injure someone, although it seems as if he's mellowed a bit through the years .

Best,

Chris
Chris,

How would you describe Arikawa Sensei's aikido? Especially in his younger years?

Who did Arikawa Sensei train mostly with? Was it under K. Ueshiba Doshu or did he get to Iwama quite a bit to train with O-sensei?

Sincerely,

Mike Haber
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Old 06-25-2002, 09:38 AM   #15
Richard Harnack
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Square Still looking at the finger...

1.
a. Yes, O'Sensei did train in the Japanese army in his youth. He so impressed his superiors that instead of going into combat he was made into an empty handed combat instructor and bayonet instructor.

b. The bokken can be an offensive weapon if that is all you see it as, then so be it. O'Sensei used the bokken to train his spirit and body. The bokken is still a piece of wood and can be used for many diverse purposes. One immensely practical one is keeping yourself from freezing to death by using it for fuel in a fire.

c. Lastly, my point still remains, what O'Sensei did in his youth, while leading in part to the man he became, does not mean he did not change and transform himself and his art. What I object to are folk who actively choose to ignore this change in favor of some supposed "early" state. We have his words in his doka, in his manual and in many interviews and reports of his son and others. All of these point to a man who had a completely different vision of what true budo is.

2. Cross training. Let me see if I can explain this. Whether one chooses to cross train in other martial arts is purely an individual choice. I strongly recommend to all martial artists that they cross train in swimming and running to improve their stamina and wind. Be that as it may, I will never indulge the lazy conceit of labelling either swimming or running as Aikido Swimming or Aikido Running. My point remains, that just because someone (even a high ranked black belt) says it is aikido (karate, boxing, wing chun, chin na, gong fu, tai chi, etc...) does not make it so.

3. Discussion of what techniques comprise Aikido will always vary simply because each of the major branches has different ways of doing the same thing. For me the deciding factor is the underlying principle and intention involved. Do they follow the principles of Aikido or do they follow the principles and intention of some other art?

4. "Shooting a gun".
a. Guns are designed by their very nature to kill. They can only be used to shoot a projectile. All weapons are designed to kill or maim, however, guns really only have the single use. Even a sword can be used to dig a hole or chop down brush, but a gun (pick your favorite) is designed to kill.
b. Protecting others with a gun requires intensive training. If you really want to have some raw data to digest, I refer you to Grossman's book "On Killing". In this book he discusses how the US Army approaches their weapons training and the ethical constraints built into it.

Yours In Aiki,
Richard Harnack
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Old 06-25-2002, 01:09 PM   #16
Bronson
 
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Quote:
that just because someone (even a high ranked black belt) says it is aikido (karate, boxing, wing chun, chin na, gong fu, tai chi, etc...) does not make it so.
What if they are altered to more closely follow the principles of aikido than the original art?

Quote:
For me the deciding factor is the underlying principle and intention involved. Do they follow the principles of Aikido or do they follow the principles and intention of some other art?
Isn't that in a nutshell what O-sensei did? He took techniques that were designed to maim and kill and altered the spirit, focus, and technical execution to follow the ideals and principles we was exploring while creating this new budo.

I guess what it comes down to for me is this; do you consider aikido to be a collection of techniqes with some underlying principles, or do you consider it a collection principles, that uses techniques to demonstrate those principles? If you follow the "technique" path then no, none of those other things will ever be aikido techniques. They will always be from that "other" art but sometimes you use them. But if you follow the "principles" path those other things could become part of your aikido if they are done with aiki-principles, aiki-intent, and aiki-mind.

Again, my understanding as of now...wait a while, it'll change

Thanks,
Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
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Old 06-25-2002, 03:38 PM   #17
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: slice?

Quote:
Originally posted by Mike Haber
How would you describe Arikawa Sensei's aikido? Especially in his younger years?
Well, I never really saw him when he was "young", but he was more dynamic 20 years ago then he is now (who wasn't!). His movements tend to be fairly small, not flash, but very effective.

Quote:
Who did Arikawa Sensei train mostly with? Was it under K. Ueshiba Doshu or did he get to Iwama quite a bit to train with O-sensei?
As I understand these things he spent some time in Iwama after the war, but so did K. Ueshiba at that time - a lot of folks went back and forth during that period. K. Ueshiba used to teach out at Iwama as well (the beginning M. Saito being in some of his classes), so it's not that easy to make a clear division.

Best,

Chris

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Old 06-25-2002, 03:49 PM   #18
Chris Li
 
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Re: Still looking at the finger...

Quote:
Originally posted by Richard Harnack
b. The bokken can be an offensive weapon if that is all you see it as, then so be it. O'Sensei used the bokken to train his spirit and body. The bokken is still a piece of wood and can be used for many diverse purposes. One immensely practical one is keeping yourself from freezing to death by using it for fuel in a fire.
Well, yes, and I could use a rifle to splint a broken leg. Your point is?

The "training spirit and body" argument could be used to apply to almost anything - kicking, striking, firerms...

Quote:
c. Lastly, my point still remains, what O'Sensei did in his youth, while leading in part to the man he became, does not mean he did not change and transform himself and his art. What I object to are folk who actively choose to ignore this change in favor of some supposed "early" state. We have his words in his doka, in his manual and in many interviews and reports of his son and others. All of these point to a man who had a completely different vision of what true budo is.
He certainly changed the purposes behind his training. K. Ueshiba pegs the birth of that change as 1925, by the way. Still he taught atemi and offensive weaponry after the war, 25 or 30 years after the change. That says to me that the change that he experienced was less limited to specific technical approaches than it was to purpose and intent.

Quote:
2. Cross training. Let me see if I can explain this. Whether one chooses to cross train in other martial arts is purely an individual choice. I strongly recommend to all martial artists that they cross train in swimming and running to improve their stamina and wind. Be that as it may, I will never indulge the lazy conceit of labelling either swimming or running as Aikido Swimming or Aikido Running. My point remains, that just because someone (even a high ranked black belt) says it is aikido (karate, boxing, wing chun, chin na, gong fu, tai chi, etc...) does not make it so.
So are Nishio and Kuroiwa lazy or is what they are doing actually Aikido? If a strike or a kick conforms to Aikido principles why can it not then be called Aikido?

Quote:
3. Discussion of what techniques comprise Aikido will always vary simply because each of the major branches has different ways of doing the same thing. For me the deciding factor is the underlying principle and intention involved. Do they follow the principles of Aikido or do they follow the principles and intention of some other art?
What I said above .

Quote:
4. "Shooting a gun".
a. Guns are designed by their very nature to kill. They can only be used to shoot a projectile. All weapons are designed to kill or maim, however, guns really only have the single use. Even a sword can be used to dig a hole or chop down brush, but a gun (pick your favorite) is designed to kill.
Sounds like quite a stretch to me. You could use a sword for other things, but a sword is also a tool designed for a single purpose - killing people (you'd have a stronger argument with a knife...). I could use a gun to hunt for food. I could use a rifle to splint leg, or as a cane.

Quote:
b. Protecting others with a gun requires intensive training. If you really want to have some raw data to digest, I refer you to Grossman's book "On Killing". In this book he discusses how the US Army approaches their weapons training and the ethical constraints built into it.
Same with a sword.

Best,

Chris

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Old 06-25-2002, 08:34 PM   #19
Richard Harnack
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Re: Re: Still looking at the finger...

Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Li
[b]

The "training spirit and body" argument could be used to apply to almost anything - kicking, striking, firerms...
Yes that is true, however we are still talking about Aikido, not the Way of the Tech Nine.


"He certainly changed the purposes behind his training. K. Ueshiba pegs the birth of that change as 1925, by the way. Still he taught atemi and offensive weaponry after the war, 25 or 30 years after the change. That says to me that the change that he experienced was less limited to specific technical approaches than it was to purpose and intent."


Yes, 1925 is one of the early dates, he later changed and refined his view during the war and sometime in 1942 began to use the term Aikido to describe his art. Later he changed more as his understanding grew deeper. The important point is that his "purpose and intent" informed his choices not only to what techniques he kept, but also how he used them. Aikido did not stop growing with the Founder's death, thank heavens.


"So are Nishio and Kuroiwa lazy or is what they are doing actually Aikido? If a strike or a kick conforms to Aikido principles why can it not then be called Aikido?"


I doubt either are lazy and I would imagine that borh would very vehemently state that they are doing Aikido. The lazy comment is for students who do not examine their own beliefs in the light of factual knowledge or who refuse to consider anything which might contradict a belief.


"Sounds like quite a stretch to me. You could use a sword for other things, but a sword is also a tool designed for a single purpose - killing people (you'd have a stronger argument with a knife...). I could use a gun to hunt for food. I could use a rifle to splint leg, or as a cane."


Actually, in regard to the sword, not as much of a stretch as you might think. I refer you to the Yagyu family scroll and Musashi's Five Rings for the germane discussions on Katsu Jinken.

All weapons are tools designed for killing, other purposes remain to be discovered by others. Killing animals for food is still killing, however, I sincerely doubt that the machine pistol was designed for food hunting.

Please do me a favor and never splint my leg with a rifle, unless you first break it down, remove all shells and take out the firing pin. Or if you prefer, hand it to me so I can pull the trigger several times with the barrel away from me just to make certain it was empty.

And please, if you need a cane please use a tree limb or a bokken, not a rifle. Forget the bad "B" war movies showing this use of the rifle. What they fail to show is the same idiot forgetting that he used it for a cane, then attempting to fire it with the barrel clogged -- kerblooie, the gene pool is improved.

The finger is still pointing at the moon.

Yours In Aiki,
Richard Harnack
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Old 06-25-2002, 08:44 PM   #20
Richard Harnack
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Ai symbol Altering to follow the principles

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Originally posted by Bronson


What if they are altered to more closely follow the principles of aikido than the original art?

I guess what it comes down to for me is this; do you consider aikido to be a collection of techniqes with some underlying principles, or do you consider it a collection principles, that uses techniques to demonstrate those principles? If you follow the "technique" path then no, none of those other things will ever be aikido techniques. They will always be from that "other" art but sometimes you use them. But if you follow the "principles" path those other things could become part of your aikido if they are done with aiki-principles, aiki-intent, and aiki-mind.
Altering techniques from other arts to follow the principles of Aikido is something that happens. However, not all techniques can be altered to fully correspond to Aikido principles. A kick to the head is still an aggressive move and not part of Aikido, no matter what "justification" is given. Hapkido possibly, but not Aikido.

Blending techniques were known in other arts prior to Aikido. Ueshiba Morihei, however, literally embodied the very principles of harmony and centeredness. He spent most of his life attempting to articulate for others what he understood in his body.

Aikido is a way of unifying principles of onesness, calmness and blending with physical movements which express the same and ultimately lead to "techniques".

Aikido is also a world view.

Yours In Aiki,
Richard Harnack
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Old 06-25-2002, 08:56 PM   #21
Chris Li
 
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Re: Re: Re: Still looking at the finger...

Quote:
Originally posted by Richard Harnack

Yes that is true, however we are still talking about Aikido, not the Way of the Tech Nine.
Huh? How do you get from "striking" to "tech nine"? I'm not talking about the Matrix, I'm talking about basic martial techniques and strategies.

Quote:
"So are Nishio and Kuroiwa lazy or is what they are doing actually Aikido? If a strike or a kick conforms to Aikido principles why can it not then be called Aikido?"


I doubt either are lazy and I would imagine that borh would very vehemently state that they are doing Aikido. The lazy comment is for students who do not examine their own beliefs in the light of factual knowledge or who refuse to consider anything which might contradict a belief.
So if they're not lazy it would be acceptable to you to include boxing or karate techniques in and Aikido curriculum? Or are you saying that, in your opinion, that what they are doing is not Aikido?

Quote:

"Sounds like quite a stretch to me. You could use a sword for other things, but a sword is also a tool designed for a single purpose - killing people (you'd have a stronger argument with a knife...). I could use a gun to hunt for food. I could use a rifle to splint leg, or as a cane."


Actually, in regard to the sword, not as much of a stretch as you might think. I refer you to the Yagyu family scroll and Musashi's Five Rings for the germane discussions on Katsu Jinken.
I've read the Heihokadensho and the Gorinnosho, both in Japanese and in English (the Japanese versions were more interesting, BTW). Interestingly, there are plenty of examples on the other side using firearms in the same meaning. After all, what do "peacekeeping" forces use? Is it your argument that this kind of thing is possible with a sword but not with a gun? And if so, why?

Quote:
Please do me a favor and never splint my leg with a rifle, unless you first break it down, remove all shells and take out the firing pin. Or if you prefer, hand it to me so I can pull the trigger several times with the barrel away from me just to make certain it was empty.

And please, if you need a cane please use a tree limb or a bokken, not a rifle. Forget the bad "B" war movies showing this use of the rifle. What they fail to show is the same idiot forgetting that he used it for a cane, then attempting to fire it with the barrel clogged -- kerblooie, the gene pool is improved.
Well, I wouldn't exactly want to use a shinken for chopping brush or digging holes either, not unless I made a lot more money than I do now. My point was that if you're going to make up silly examples to try and establish that the sword is not really a killing weapon then it's possible to do the same thing for firearms.

Quote:
The finger is still pointing at the moon.
Hmm, maybe you ought to look at the moon then .

Best,

Chris

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Old 06-25-2002, 09:42 PM   #22
Chris Li
 
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Re: Altering to follow the principles

Quote:
Originally posted by Richard Harnack


Altering techniques from other arts to follow the principles of Aikido is something that happens. However, not all techniques can be altered to fully correspond to Aikido principles. A kick to the head is still an aggressive move and not part of Aikido, no matter what "justification" is given. Hapkido possibly, but not Aikido.
And yet, Morihei Ueshiba practiced strikes to the head, both with sword and with empty hand until the day he died. Why are those moves less agressive then a kick to the head?

Best,

Chris

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Old 06-26-2002, 02:40 AM   #23
Bronson
 
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Quote:
Or if you prefer, hand it to me so I can pull the trigger several times with the barrel away from me just to make certain it was empty
The prefered method is to point the weapon in a safe direction and open the action to visually confirm the weapon is empty.

Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
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Old 06-26-2002, 06:00 PM   #24
Bruce Baker
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Put it away

Stop pointing your fingers, and spitting at each other about how much O'Sensei meant about this or that ... this was not part of the original question or direction I thought this would go?

O'Sensei has gone to heaven, and left us to continue with his practice and wrestle with new ideas of what Aikido is or where it should go.

The quibbling about words is not the intent of Aikido, but a moot point to argued by weasel lawyers who ask you to tell the whole truth, then cut you short when you do ... hopefully your own moral fiber is a bit stronger.

What can we add to make Aikido better?

Are there things that Wally Jay has improved that we should take back into our Aikido practice? I have practiced with many Small Circle enthusiasts and Aikido practice surely comliments Small Circle as much as Small Circle compliment Aikido.

Not everything in every style of fighting arts is usefull in Aikido, but certainly training in other arts do compliment and enliven Aikido practice.

So ...

Back to the subject ...

If you want to compare particular training to to being good or bad for the pillars of Aikido, or if you want to introduce your experience in cross training and finding many of your old Aikido friends in practice, that is the direction I wished to go.

But this, "I know this", and "O'Sensei said that" ...

I don't think that O'Sensei wanted all his words to be a religion, or the absolute final word on Aikido, but guide for you to get your feet on the ground as you find your own way in your practice, and your soul.

So if you want to start another thread about O'Sensei said ...

Otherwise we can end this, if there is no more to be said.

I am going to see if I can corner John Stevens, author and teacher, in July, and see what he thinks about this whole thing.
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Old 06-27-2002, 02:17 AM   #25
mike lee
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strike

When aiki-ken and aiki-jo is practiced, the attacker is never struck, although the attacker's weapon occassionally is struck.

Koichi Tohei taught to never strike an opponent's weapon for a number of reasons.

The glory of aikido is that because of the way we train, in a combat situation, we often have the option to choose, based on innumerable factors, what kind of response will be used. Ideally, the least distructive response is selected.

Although the vast majority of those who practice aikido can understand this principle, as we can see from one certain lost soul on this thread, violence and distructive thinking rule his life. Rather than trying to reach a level of understanding, he chooes to obstinately remain obtuse. Not the kind of chap that most of us would want to have as a friend.

In fact, I avoid such people like the plague, because not only do they end up creating trouble for themselves, but they also try to involve those around them in their juvenile charade.

It would be better to walk 100 miles alone than 1 mile with a fool.

P.S. As far as I know, on the day that he died, O'Sensei was in the hospital, and I don't think that he was swinging a sword in the hallway.

Last edited by mike lee : 06-27-2002 at 07:12 AM.
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