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Old 09-27-2002, 09:41 AM   #26
Bruce Baker
Dojo: LBI Aikikai/LBI ,NJ
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Oh, side bar.

The couple of times I was thrown by shihans, the wave worked better than trying to stay ahead of the technique. The throws felt like nothing at all, even though they were very fast and hard.

The most resistent uke is the uke who totally relaxes into a sack of potatoes, not the muscular strength some people think is resistence.
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Old 09-27-2002, 09:48 AM   #27
akiy
 
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Now, here's a counterpoint to a lot of what we've been saying from a friend of mine.

His thought is that a good uke has to have the ability to "stay ahead" one step of nage so that uke can stay in control. In other words, losing control as uke, in his mind, meant that uke no longer had the ability to take advantage of nage's openings.

Thoughts?

-- Jun

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Old 09-27-2002, 09:59 AM   #28
DanielR
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Quote:
...a good uke has to have the ability to "stay ahead" one step of nage so that uke can stay in control.
Erm... This is probably naive, but if the nage allows the uke to stay in control, doesn't this mean the technique is not working? Or the idea was that a good uke is able to stay in control no matter how good the nage is?

Daniel
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Old 09-27-2002, 11:46 AM   #29
Alfonso
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There are challenges/problems in the japanase dojo style of teaching, where self-discovery is stressed. Can it be improved? I certainly don't know , but there are teachers who are making an effort to improve Aikido teaching methodology. On the other hand I enjoy the process, I like to discover things.

Ukemi as I understand it currently is multifaceted. If things are clicking for me as uke I feel connected to the technique, and able to recover if allowed.

One step ahead is IMO a good way of learning how to find that connection, Another way of learning that connection is static resistance, discovering balance and so forth.

But to be able to protect yourself as Uke you need to be closer to the connecting point itself. If nage does the technique correctly It can be like falling for a long time..

In class what I enjoy most is getting to take ukemi for the next technique demonstrated. The first attack, before I get any ideas of whats coming... sweet.
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Old 09-27-2002, 11:47 AM   #30
Alfonso
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and what about uke's role as a teacher?

Alfonso Adriasola
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Old 09-27-2002, 12:53 PM   #31
Chuck Clark
 
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Most of us want our definitions in black or white. Most Eastern terms, relationships, values, etc. are at their very root a paradox.

Words are extremely difficult to really describe what a "good uke" is. You have to feel it from someone that knows and is a good uke.

We will all continue to try to describe these ideas in words though. Until it becomes poetry, the words don't get close.

Regards,

Chuck Clark
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www.jiyushinkai.org
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Old 09-27-2002, 02:55 PM   #32
erikmenzel
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Quote:
Jun Akiyama (akiy) wrote:
His thought is that a good uke has to have the ability to "stay ahead" one step of nage so that uke can stay in control. In other words, losing control as uke, in his mind, meant that uke no longer had the ability to take advantage of nage's openings.
Maybe it is just semantics, but for me staying ahead automatically includes being able to predict the future.

Uke does however not know the future (She might think he knows what is going to happen, but this is not more than just an idea in uke's head, the reality is different.)

In other words a good uke, IMHO is not able to stay ahead, but is able to stay within the present, riding every detail of the things nage does.

Erik Jurrien Menzel
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Old 09-27-2002, 04:33 PM   #33
Bruce Baker
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In western terms it is like moving the ouiji on the ouiji board. All involved are attached to the ouiji, but who is the mover and who are the followers. If it is done right, it feels like nothing.

So too, the best done techniques are not you racing to be ahead of the energy, but letting the feeling of the energy carry you rather than trying to run ahead of it gives nage the practice to increase speed and intensity without causing undue danger, and uke gets a sense of timeing and blending of movement while practicing defense while looking for offensive postures during the technique.

The only problem I have with nages who can't feel the application of techniques is that they overdo to adjust for speed, considering pain to be intensity ... it is not.

If you begin to feel intensity, for my money, it is when everything slows down and you are unable to move quick enough keep up with the movements even though they seem to be in slow motion to you.

That is usually the time someone comments on how they were unable to follow the speed of your movements and how did you do that?

If you have ever experience this phenonmena, then you will know what I mean. If not, you will if you ever attain intensity of training over a period of years.

I see it a lot when shomenuchi, or weapons are use to initiate a practice, everything slows down so that I am able to move later and later with the practice until it seems inevitable that the attacker will hit me ... but usually the worst is a slightly glancing blow when I wait too long, and a strange look from a partner who wonders if they should slow down the strike.

I sometimes wonder if my training partners are actually concentrating on the entire technique,or are they more concerned with the beginning and end of the strike letting the middle become a black hole?

Relax, your intensity will increase, as will your ukemi, and your awareness.
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Old 10-04-2002, 03:41 PM   #34
MattRice
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Since uke is generally the attacker, I would say that this is kind of a mute point, we're aikidoka, we're not supposed to be attacking...however here's one disadvantage if we're talking about a real situation (where I'm attacking someone, which is pretty laughable)

I trained in karate for years, in aikido we get in the habit of delivering one strike during the attack: this is not real. In a real situation, with someone trained, there are 3 or 4 more strikes coming right up after the first one. I am not very advanced in aikido however; I would assume this kind of training exists at higher levels
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Old 10-05-2002, 12:36 AM   #35
tedehara
 
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Quote:
Jun Akiyama (akiy) wrote:
...His thought is that a good uke has to have the ability to "stay ahead" one step of nage so that uke can stay in control. In other words, losing control as uke, in his mind, meant that uke no longer had the ability to take advantage of nage's openings.

Thoughts?

-- Jun
If the uke has the ability to stay ahead of nage, then uke also has the opportunity to lead and counter the technique. Nage has lost the lead and control of the technique.

Uke maintains self-control and should never lose their balance, even when thrown. A good uke is actually balancing out the forces around him so he can take a safe ukemi. When someone doesn't do ukemi but actually loses their balance, he goes SPLAT! on the mat and is taken away in an ambulance.

This is not a popular view of ukemi or how an aikido technique should work. Today most people talk about breaking balance.

It is not practice that makes perfect, it is correct practice that makes perfect.
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Old 10-05-2002, 06:36 AM   #36
davoravo
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Being a good uke is a suprisingly variable thing. What interests me is that the way that uke attacks and receives a technique determines the way that nage performs the technique and hence the style of aikido in that dojo.

I have trained where being a good uke is to attack quickly and softly and flow with the technique. This may seem wrong but this is stylised training and nage is learning to blend with uke's movement.

I have trained in a dojo where a good uke grabbed nage and squeezed as hard as he could. There was lots of resistance but nage learned very powerful movement and technique. I don't think this was a neccessarily "more realistic" thing as on my first day, when someone grabbed me with both hands and then locked up I felt like saying "There's no point doing aikido on you cause you can't move. I'll just kick you in the shin and punch you in the head." However I did learn a lot from that way of training, it exposed all the faults and bad habits I had developed.

In the first dojo we started to try the "staying ahead of nage" way of receiving a technique. As long as uke maintains a connection then both partners learn a good deal of sensitivity. It is very difficulat and can degenrate into nonsense without sincerity.

What about atemi? What is a "good" way to receive atemi? In my first dojo we rolled with atemi, this gave nage the feeling of using atemi to take our balance. The advantage for uke was learning to roll with and slide past punches.

In the second dojo (rigid uke) we blocked atemi. This means atemi was a distraction and nage still had to work to break our balance. It also meant delivering atemi only where uke could block and not creating an opening through which to atemi to break balance (did that make sense?). I don't know which is more "realistic".

David McNamara
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Old 10-05-2002, 09:16 AM   #37
davoravo
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Quote:
also meant delivering atemi only where uke could block
this is not a correct statement and i wish to retract it. Obviously not extending ki to all the parts of my brain at once

David McNamara
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