NHB Fighting and Aikido

Ok thanks for keeping on answering my questions. I think this is very interesting. So you are saying that in a NHB fight you would be doing a combination of Aikido/Karate/wrestling? Or were you saying that most people view a fight in that way instead of one seamless encounter?

i think basically that the aikido from the ''noma dojo period'' was precisely the combo of the three ,refined to such a degree that there was no interruption of the rythm of neutralization .i.e no struggle or strength dominated technique.but i'm sure he used strength ,i just think it was less noticable due to continuity of movement.

darin,i must agree ,having fought royce gracie

2 times ,in my humble opinion bjj is a completely aiki system,but it's focus is too much on competitive execution i.e taking a fight to the ground ,if there are more than one person around ,is is not very realistic.but their execution from their perspective is pure aiki .but i would like to fight two of them against two of us to shed more light on the standing aspect when it would be necessary to keep off the ground.to win a ufc may be difficult for most aikidoka ,but to survive one would be easy for most aikidoka.

Mr. Clark- This is your comment:

"This type of spectacle has nothing to do with budo practice. I, and none of the quality budo practitioners that I know would have anything to do with such nonsense. This type of activity is designed to make money for the promoters and that's about it."

I don't know what "budo" is. Carlos Newton of UFC fame maybe? BTW, a lot of BJJ practicioners hold high ranks in Judo. Is that related in any way?

For one please do not refer to my sport as "nonsense", as I have not defamed your art in any way or dismissed it. Aikido can be beneficial in street self defense situations in some cases, but for the most part, its practicioncers rarely are asked to apply their skills in a live situation.

Unlike sports/ways of life..lol such as wrestling (my background), judo, kickboxing, some forms of karate, muay thai, and brazilian jiu-jitsu which all have forms of sparring or work against a full live, resisting opponent, who is trying just as hard to apply their techniques as you are.

I see you are from the same city and state I am in. Perhaps one day you could show me these techniques that everyone says will neutralize a steroid freak wrestler like I am, being all of 165 lbs of blobby non defined muscle.

In the future please do not defame the sport of MMA or wrestling. We are for the most part, hard working athletes who condition ourselves to be able to carry on a continued pace of athletic exertion for an extended period of time. Grappling/wrestling is one of the most exhausting activities there is, cardiovascular wise. I very highly doubt that any Aikido practicioner practices soley on conditioning for the amount of time any mid level amateur MMA competitor or high school wrestler does.

If you wish to take me up by showing me your techniques, please contact me. technicalfall19@yahoo.com

"These guys aren't just anyone."

I'm sorry but I have to disagree with that. I have been a Martial Artist for the last 12 years now. I just started Aikido almost 3 months ago and before that I've been involved in JKD, other forms of Kung Fu, and Karate. I'm not saying that I'm a seasoned expert or anything...'cause I'm not! LOL! However, I am quite dangerous and not only that...I'm a very scientific fighter...which is the reason I got into Aikido...'cause like JKD...it's scientific. Anywho...I've seen the way these NHB guys fight. Almost all of them are good grapplers. However, almost ALL of them are the worst strikers I have ever seen in my life! I've seen supposedly professional UFC guys throw spin kicks, punches, and other types of strikes without even faking their opponent!!!!! The feinted strike is the MOST important strike in the Martial arts...or at least in JKD and boxing...and their opponents either block these slow unfeinted strikes, move out of the way of the strike, or they get hit!!!! How the heck are you gonna get hit by some 250+ lb. guy who is all muscle bound and everything so his strikes go at 1 mile an hour and he doesn't even deceive you!? That to me tells me that these UFC guys are all hype and are NOT the best Martial artists/fighters around. Maybe the best grapplers (of which even that I have a problem accepting) but not the best all around fighters. Truth is...even those UFC guys who say that traditional martial arts don't work on the streets will also get their butts massacred by just about anyone with the lack of skill and speed that these guys possess!

This message is in regards to Jonathan Levenson from Arizona.
I used to wrestle with my friend who was a high ranking varsity high school wrestler. This kid was sweet as frig. He studied JKD and Karate with me. I learned almost all my wrestling from him as well as from watching high school and college matches on TV and watching UFC and reading BJJ books, LOL. I wasn't able to compete because I live in the City of Buffalo, NY where the public schools here do not have wrestling teams while my friend was in the suburbs where they did. However, I would almost all the time beat my friend into submission, ok? He was an officially trained grappler...I was not. You could say I was very unofficially trained yet I would beat him...not easily...'cause we'd get all sweaty and exhausted and all that crap...but I would use some BJJ stuff that I learned that is superior to a lot wrestling stuff he did. However, back then we both thought that being in shape was the way to beat people...very much like you do now when you said,

We are for the most part, hard working athletes who condition ourselves to be able to carry on a continued pace of athletic exertion for an extended period of time... I very highly doubt that any Aikido practicioner practices soley on conditioning for the amount of time any mid level amateur MMA competitor or high school wrestler does.

I used to think the exact same way until I realized that criminals and assailants do not waste their time training and working out to beat you up. They just do it. The point of aikido is to not use your strength against a stronger person but to have them use their strength against themselves. So...it really wouldn't matter how much you train in conditioning and how much we don't. You'd still get messed up by yourself because we would use YOUR strength against YOU rather than OUR strength. Also...if you try and wrestle everyone on the streets strength on strength...chances are...you're gonna get massacred by someone who's a lot stronger than you are. So...I suggest you start doing aikido or something, LOL!

Alan M. Rodriguez wrote: I've seen the way these NHB guys fight. Almost all of them are good grappler's. However, almost ALL of them are the worst strikers I have ever seen in my life! I've seen supposedly professional UFC guys throw spin kicks, punches, and other types of strikes without even faking their opponent!!!!! The feinted strike is the MOST important strike in the Martial arts...or at least in JKD and boxing...and their opponents either block these slow unfeinted strikes, move out of the way of the strike, or they get hit!!!! How the heck are you gonna get hit by some 250+ lb. guy who is all muscle bound and everything so his strikes go at 1 mile an hour and he doesn't even deceive you!? That to me tells me that these UFC guys are all hype and are NOT the best Martial artists/fighters around. Maybe the best grappler's (of which even that I have a problem accepting) but not the best all around fighters.

I agree with you on the striking thing for the most part. A lot of these guys are wrestlers, BJJ etc, and don't have a good punching background. The same can be said about really good strikers trying to learn a little grappling or wrestling. If a grappler looks at their technique, they will say the person isn't that good at all.

When you get 2 evenly matched opponents, a lot of the feints etc. just don't work. Setting up the average person isn't that hard, but as the skill level increases, the techniques look different.

Also, in NHB your stances and punches are different from lets say boxing. I never did JKD, so I can't comment on their approach. You can't fully commit to a punch like a boxer because your opening yourself up for take downs kicks etc. You do see a lot of Jab knockouts. Get the UFC ultimate knockouts part 1,2 & 3.

Look at Sport Judo. At a real high level it looks really bad because your opponent knows as much as you. Put that guy against someone unfamiliar with judo, and you will see some nice looking set ups and throws. There are some good well rounded martial artists and trainers. Erik Paulson (although he's never been in the UFC) was a JKD guy who got into BJJ and is a great all around martial artist, If you have ever seen Yves Edwards fight, pound for pound, you will say he is one of the best all around fighters in the world.

I'm not arguing with you to much, but to lump all competitors as UFC guys just isn't correct. You have all type of MMA Events like ADCC, Deep, IVC, Hook 'n' Shoot, K-1, KOTC, Pancrase, PrideFC, Rings, Shooto, Superbrawl, and the UFC.

As the mysteries of wrestling and Grappling are being revealed, I think the level of punching and kicking will go up.

Jason Delucia wrote: darin,i must agree ,having fought royce gracie 2 times ,in my humble opinion bjj is a completely aiki system,but it's focus is too much on competitive execution i.e taking a fight to the ground ,if there are more than one person around ,is is not very realistic.but their execution from their perspective is pure aiki .but i would like to fight two of them against two of us to shed more light on the standing aspect when it would be necessary to keep off the ground.to win a ufc may be difficult for most aikidoka ,but to survive one would be easy for most aikidoka.

Wow, then you know what you're talking about! But easy? are you sure?

Poor strikers! Hah! Perhaps in the early days, but some of these guys are the best strikers in the world. Chuck Liddel for example has extremely quick and powerful strikes.

I don't know where you came up with the poor striker idea???

Alan needs a reality check.
Paulson has succesfully competed in shooto and dropped the JKD specific stuff entirely.

I see NHB as mostly basic boxing, grappling, and ground and pound. Honestly, I know that most of the amatuer guys training up to pro could probably mop the floor with me in the shape I'm in right now (Plus, my Judo and BJJ is prolly a lil' bit rusty). But, I also see many flaws in the techniques of high level fighters in the UFC. It seems like many strikes are lacking anymore...with the exception of a few power house kick boxers. To put it simply, I don't think UFC or NHB is an evolution of martial arts by any means. In fact it makes me mad when they say that. I think it is an evolution in exactly what it is....cage fighting.

Really, I think if Aikido folk really would ever want to go "toe to toe" with an experienced NHB fighter they would have to learn to take hits to the head and learn basic boxing. Keep in mind, once an Aikidoka is in a conflict, the element of suprise is completely gone. I'm not doubting the effectiveness of Aikido, I'm merely stating most martial arts rely on an element of suprise. Aikido is self-defense and NHB is cage fighting...two different worlds. Do I think NHB fighters could benefit from traditional martial arts training? Sure, and students from traditional arts could always benefit from some time with pro fighters.

Certainly not all fighters that enter these things are the best example of strikers. I applaud anyone that has the courage and guts to enter and fight if that is there chosing. Certainly there are rules and constraints that allow for certain tactics and strategies, that is true in all forms of combat.

Your living in la la land if you don't think you need to be in good physical condition to fight period. Yea I understand all that blending and harmony, and frankly it is useful, but in a "real fight", you have other principles in play such as speed, strength, agility that are impacted by your conditioning. So to not be in shape puts you at a severe disadvantage.

If anyone who studies aikido soley a few nights a week seriously thinks they can enter the ring and beat these guys within the parameter of our art, i'd love to see it. It is one thing to arm chair quarterback and philsophize, quite another to go toe to toe and walk the walk.

Most of these guys know much more about fighting than you are giving them credit for.

"Really, I think if Aikido folk really would ever want to go "toe to toe" with an experienced NHB fighter they would have to learn to take hits to the head and learn basic boxing."

I agree, but aside from basic boxing one should learn the game of NHB and how to use other methods of striking. granted there is a only a certain amount of strikes one could execute but knowing "How to" is essential because that is part of the NHB game. Modification of technique to include said strikes is also needed. Then there is going to the ground. And like Kevin said conditioning is very important. Not only does one need the proper conditioning for the physical aspect but the mental aspect also. Think about it your opponent is across from you and all he or she wants to do is beat you down and make you submit, with alot of pain involved, it could kinda put a dent in your ability to focus if your not prepared. So basically, if you want to play the game you need the proper tools.

Oh so as to not upset anyone when I refer to NHB as a game I am referring to the fact that there are rules involved. Anything with rules within the sporting world is a game. I mean no disrespect

I'm sorry, but did we really have to resurrect a two year dead thread like this?

Scott Walton wrote: Everytime I watch one of those No Holds Barred Fighting Tournaments (UFC, Pride, Extreme Fighting) I always wonder how a seasoned aikido practitioner would do. A skilled aikido practioner should be able to defend against type of attack reasonable well and a master should be able to fend of even skilled attackers quite easily. So why haven't we seen one?

Because they aren't interested. There are some who are, and they post here and can offer comment, but WRT MMA/NHB, the nature of those competitions requires you to train for it and ramp your training intensity up as you get ready for a fight. MOST Aikido don't do that and don't care to. And that's their prerogative, and no one, regardless of how they train or what they train for, should hang their head and feel ashamed of what they do.

..... I know that as aikido practitioners we use our art for self-defense so seeking a fight is kind of against our creed, but I get frustrated when I see all these mixed martial artists claiming their fighting system is supreme and that the traditional arts are outdated and ineffective ....

Yeah, bugs me too. But if one crosstrains in both areas, that ends the debate, doesn't it?

Most of these fighters aren't even martial artists but wrestlers with a few months of boxing training .....

Neither boxing nor submission grappling should be poo-pooed -- I can tell you that for nothing. These guys are good at what they do and have a lot of tricks up their sleeves.

Are they more effective than an aikido practioner with years/decades of training under his belt?

Better at what?

MMA gives you certain tools. Aikido gives you certain tools and ideas. How do you measure which is better? By performance in the ring? By how many people use them on the street? Well, every art, Aikido included, has people who would swear by it, so that's not good.

Bottom line: Train in what you want to train in, and don't let some comments bother you. Easier said than done, I know that, but that's the goal.

The reason many of MMA guys have a disdain for aikido is that it does not meet their training objectives. They are mainly interested in being effective fighters within the parameters of their goals.

Aikido is a DO art or way. It is typically centered on developing you as a person, not concentrating on making you an effective MMA fighter. The reason they think what they do is better than aikido is because it is better for them.

I agree Michael with your "better at what?" question. That is where we go wrong. We get confused at what our objectives are in our martial study and then start having self doubt about ourselve and our practice. It is difficult to compare ourselves to others and other systems. Bottom line, if you don't feel aikido is meeting your objectives, you may want to find something else that does.

Yea it sucks getting beat playing a MMA game when you have studied Traditional Martial Arts for years by a 18 year old that has 2 years of MMA under his belt, but in many cases, that is the reality. Doesn't mean you or your art is no good, just mean not for that game or situation.

That same 18 year old may have other issues of unhappiness or emptyness or may not have fully developed his character. It may be later in life he finds aikido and it may fill his needs then.

We all want the "perfect art" that will allow us to be the "perfect martial artist". It does not exist period.

I'd say MMA guys are just as bugged or irked by aikido people that think their art is the best thing since sliced bread in the world. Frankly I find that this is what bugs them the most about aikido, not the art, but many of the people who try to make it something that it is not.

Best strikers in the world!!?!?!? LOLOL!!!! Wow! So you're telling me that Chuck Liddel can punch better and more effectively than boxers like Felix Trinidad, Winky Wright, and Sugar Ray Leonard or Muhammed Ali and that he can kick better than any Tae Kwon Do guy (like boxing, TKD is a very incomplete style...but...both styles have the best of both worlds...boxing has the best punches and TKD the most amazing kicks ever...not all their techniques in both styles are effective...but they're the best at it)? Not even the guys who claim they're Muay Thai stylists are better strikers than the actual Muay Thai fighters in Thailand. Anyone of those Muay Thai guys can massacre any of these slow muscle bound UFC guys...well...at least in a Muay Thai match, LOL. Another thing is that MMA guys (except for JKD dudes like me) are extremely incomplete! You think that punching, kicking and grappling are the ONLY ranges of combat? Don't you think you're missing one? Well...you are! It's trapping...like Wing Chun for instance. It makes getting into a clinch a lot easier and faster and makes grappling come easier as well rather than taking them down with a shooting technique. I'm not a wing chun expert or anything 'cause JKD only took the more basic and direct wing chun techniques...but...I've been in a lot of street altercations in the past (I live in the "hood" unfortunately, LOL) and shooting doesn't always work on the bigger guys unless you trap them first and knock them off balance. That's why I started aikido...'cause aikido can be used with those wing chun techniques very effectively.

Alan,

Look forward to your debut in the UFC, sounds like you'd have no problem with your experience.

Kevin Kelly wrote: I'm sorry, but did we really have to resurrect a two year dead thread like this?

I'm glad it's back! It's a fun one, the discussion has been pretty reasonable, and some new points are being added. May it live forever, evolvng as the sport (MMA) evolves.

[quote=Mitch Kuntz] I don't think UFC or NHB is an evolution of martial arts by any means. In fact it makes me mad when they say that. I think it is an evolution in exactly what it is....cage fighting.
QUOTE]

Interesting observation. I agree. In the early matches the fighters were highly stylized. In fact, many were introduced as a practitioner of "this or that" MA. It is funny how it devolved into ancient pankration. MA styles are almost never mentioned, anymore, except as maybe a side note.


http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/Olympics/pankration.html

Alan M. Rodriguez wrote: Best strikers in the world!!?!?!? LOLOL!!!! Wow! So you're telling me that Chuck Liddel can punch better and more effectively than boxers like Felix Trinidad, Winky Wright, and Sugar Ray Leonard or Muhammed Ali .

In the octagon, Chuck Lidell would kick all of these guys a$$e$ plain and simple.

Tim Jester wrote: In the octagon, Chuck Lidell would kick all of these guys a$$e$ plain and simple.

Absolutely. Also I am sure getting hit with a 4oz glove or a 10-20 oz glove is a completely different feeling.

Jon Truho wrote: Interesting observation. I agree. In the early matches the fighters were highly stylized. In fact, many were introduced as a practitioner of "this or that" MA. It is funny how it devolved into ancient pankration. MA styles are almost never mentioned, anymore, except as maybe a side note. http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/Olympics/pankration.html

Mixed MA seems to be becoming a Martial art of it's own.

Kevin Leavitt wrote: .... I'd say MMA guys are just as bugged or irked by aikido people that think their art is the best thing since sliced bread in the world .....

Yeah, but what do MMA guys think of MMA? I doubt they'd put themselves through all that blood and sweat if they thought it stunk!

.... Frankly I find that this is what bugs them the most about aikido, not the art, but many of the people who try to make it something that it is not.

Well, if you hang around here long enough, you find there is some debate over what it does and doesn't do and can or can't go. <shrug> What can I tell you?

Tim Jester wrote: In the octagon, Chuck Lidell would kick all of these guys a$$e$ plain and simple.

NO CRAP! LOL! I'm not saying that they wouldn't get massacred by a MORE complete fighter like Chuck Liddel. Of course...if they had the grappling and kicking skills as Chuck Liddel...I think it would be a different story...but I wouldn't want to get into that "fantasy sports" crap, LOL! However, Chuck Liddel can't punch as well or as effectively or even has hard as they could and NOWHERE near as fast! Like Bruce Lee says, you can't have power without speed! Also...for that guy who said getting hit with a 4oz. glove is different than getting hit with a 10-12oz. (of which is more padding)...if you can knock the daylights out of someone and send them to the hospital (like Felix Trinidad has done on numerous occasions [i.e. Fernando Vargas, Yory Boy Campas, etc.]) with a 10-12 oz. glove...imagine how much it would hurt without the glove...or with a 4oz. glove?