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Old 01-08-2007, 11:52 PM   #1
Incoming663
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Where Is The Respect?

I'm "old school" and recently became active again in the late David German's US TAI system under O'sensei Andy Watford, Master German's heir apparent.
I have taken from the late Grandmasters Ed Parker and Master Virgil Kimmey. I have studied many systems and have blackbelts in two.
Okay guys. Please allow me to get a little informal in this post.
I have read, with interest, this great web site - especially the forums page. I was a bit surprised to read some of the angry and disrespectful comments from a few of the martial artists in an interchange regarding differing points of view.
Hey guys and ladies. I'm new here. And I don't wish to offend anyone. But some of the rather aggresive postings would be much more effective if one could make their point(s) without offensive syntax.
Anyhow, most of you guys are great and this is a wonderful martial arts web site. Peace out.~The REAL BigDawg~
www.therealbigdawg.com
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Old 01-09-2007, 12:43 AM   #2
Guilty Spark
 
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Re: Where Is The Respect?

Quote:
Favorite Sites
* Ann Coulter
* Bill O'Reilly
Yikes!

I think you're right, some messages are over the top and some (many) points could be easier made without the agressive comments. Nature of the beast though, especially with politics and religion.

Whats even worse in my opinion is people making aggressive comments and persnal attacks and hiding them with polite words and psudo civilty. Like if they say it in a nice way it's okay. Reminds me of someone speaking to you out of the side of their mouth smiling.

If you're hungry, keep moving.
If you're tired, keep moving.
If you value you're life, keep moving.

You don't own what you can't defend
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Old 01-09-2007, 07:35 AM   #3
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Re: Where Is The Respect?

Quote:
Frank Murphy wrote:
But some of the rather aggresive postings would be much more effective if one could make their point(s) without offensive syntax.
Yes, many of us from the old school are still practicing on this thing called relax, enter, and blend without offering or reacting to aggressive resistance.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 01-09-2007, 11:08 AM   #4
Kevin Wilbanks
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Re: Where Is The Respect?

Grant is right. Your favorite websites list reads like a who's who of some of the most prominent perpetrators of incivility and vitriol in public political debate today. I don't see how you could be genuine about the sentiment you just posted here and be a fan of such demagogues.

As for your criticism of this forum, in my long experience of such internet boards, it usually seems above average in terms of civility. The only place I've seen significantly more polite exchanges is on boards where all posts are pre-screened by a moderator. In my experience, just as many people get upset by agressive, legitimate debating that sticks to the topic as they do by personal insults, and the inability to distinguish is often what leads to insults. I am quite disciplined about confining my criticisms to a person's ideas and behavior in the debate, yet I am insulted all the time, and often characterized as a "bad guy" by folks who can't tell the difference when the dust has settled.
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Old 01-09-2007, 01:04 PM   #5
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Re: Where Is The Respect?

Quote:
Your favorite websites list reads like a who's who of some of the most prominent perpetrators of incivility and vitriol in public political debate today.
Exactly.

If you're hungry, keep moving.
If you're tired, keep moving.
If you value you're life, keep moving.

You don't own what you can't defend
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Old 01-09-2007, 04:47 PM   #6
Neil Mick
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Re: Where Is The Respect?

Yes, I agree. It is unfortunate when people resort to disrespect, to make their point. It also tends to bias the discussion away from debate, and more toward an atmosphere of "one-upmanship," which is unfortunate.

But, I agree with Kevin, that the post'ers on this site tend more toward civility. Surprising, considering Jun's open-handed style of moderation (which I approve, BTW. I once wrote on a site moderated by a several ppl each, on a different forum-theme. The over-moderation left a bad taste in my mouth).

Another example is AJ, in which political discussion has been largely banned. From what I see, it does not do the site much good, IMO.
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Old 01-10-2007, 01:01 AM   #7
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Re: Where Is The Respect?

I don't blame people for not wanting politics in discussion forms.
It's all well and good to keep politics to a generalized location, which members can happily choose to ignore, but some posters ruin it by finding ways to drag politics, political agendas and firing off political one liners into unrelated debates.

If you're hungry, keep moving.
If you're tired, keep moving.
If you value you're life, keep moving.

You don't own what you can't defend
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Old 01-10-2007, 11:57 AM   #8
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Re: Where Is The Respect?

Quote:
Grant Wagar wrote:
I don't blame people for not wanting politics in discussion forms.
It's all well and good to keep politics to a generalized location, which members can happily choose to ignore, but some posters ruin it by finding ways to drag politics, political agendas and firing off political one liners into unrelated debates.
Is my sig a problem?

"The only difference between Congress and drunken sailors is that drunken sailors spend their own money." -Tom Feeney, representative from Florida
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Old 01-10-2007, 12:00 PM   #9
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Where Is The Respect?

James, I LIKE your sig. Please don't change it...

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 01-10-2007, 12:10 PM   #10
Neil Mick
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Thumbs down Re: Where Is The Respect?

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
James, I LIKE your sig. Please don't change it...

Best,
Ron
+1
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Old 01-10-2007, 01:27 PM   #11
Neil Mick
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Re: Where Is The Respect?

Quote:
Grant Wagar wrote:
I don't blame people for not wanting politics in discussion forms.
Me neither. But, I think that political discussion is important, esp within the context of a martial art promoting harmony.

How do you preserve harmony withn the framework of a dis-harmonious topic?

Quote:
It's all well and good to keep politics to a generalized location, which members can happily choose to ignore, but some posters ruin it by finding ways to drag politics, political agendas and firing off political one liners into unrelated debates.
Hmm...not sure what you mean. The few times I (or others) fired off a political one-liner in a non-political topic never seemed to drag the conversation down, IMO. Ppl just seemed to shrug or laugh it off (which is usually the intention), and move on.
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Old 01-10-2007, 01:31 PM   #12
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Where Is The Respect?

Neil, How do you believe you can acheive a better understanding of harmony, or promote it through the discussion of politics?
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Old 01-10-2007, 01:48 PM   #13
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Re: Where Is The Respect?

Re: Where Is The Respect?
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...246#post164246
Posted by: Kevin Wilbanks
On: Yesterday 12:08 PM

Grant is right. Your favorite websites list reads like a who's who of some of the most prominent perpetrators of incivility and vitriol in public political debate today. I don't see how you could be genuine about the sentiment you just posted here and be a fan of such demagogues.

As for your criticism of this forum, in my long experience of such internet boards, it usually seems above average in terms of civility. The only place I've seen significantly more polite exchanges is on boards where all posts are pre-screened by a moderator. In my experience, just as many people get upset by agressive, legitimate debating that sticks to the topic as they do by personal insults, and the inability to distinguish is often what leads to insults. I am quite disciplined about confining my criticisms to a person's ideas and behavior in the debate, yet I am insulted all the time, and often characterized as a "bad guy" by folks who can't tell the difference when the dust has settled.
************
Greetings Mr. Wilbanks. I had just written a reply to your reply and before I could finish, it disappeared. Gremlins I suppose - lol.
Anyhow, I found your feedback interesting and I thank you for taking the time to respond to it. Not only that, apparently before you made your reply, sir, you did a cursory check of my blog. Same thing I would have done. However, I am sorry that you "profiled" me based on my "Favorite Web Sites" and as I inferred from your feedback, you found my posting disingenuous because of that. It wasn't. But I suppose that it could have come across as being self-righteous and sanctimonious on my part.
Sir, I am not a "fan" of anybody. I have been in radio all my adult life crankin' out rock & roll. I have a very thick skin - you have to be thick skinned to be in tha biz. I've had death threats, bomb threats, a drive-by shooting when I was on the air, and of course, the "groupie" thing. "Fans" is something that I could never quite figure out. But I digress. As for my blog, yes I do have quite a few loopy web sites under my "Favorite Web Sites." And no ... I am not a fan of some of the web sites that you found offensive. There is, however a method to that madness and it is this: "Never Be Boring." A cardinal rule in broadcasting - and bloging. So, I do stretch the limits of sanity and good taste to engender feedback such as yours. And no, Mr. Wilbanks, I was not offended in the least by your reply to my reply. I found what you wrote perceptive and interesting. I also don't think that you are a "bad guy" at all. I appreciate it when someone just comes out and just tells it like it is without "cotton-mouthing" with pseudo political correctness.
Mr. Wilbanks, when I put on my gi and step onto the floor, I leave all the undesirable elements in this world behind me. The dojo and our members are my family. I have found peace and respect for and from others all my life in the dojo. So I do stand by my posting, "Where's The Respect?" I meant every word of it. If I didn't, I would not be defending it. I hope that you and I can stay in touch from time to time. Cheers.~Dawg~

www.therealbigdawg.com
http://journals.aol.com/incoming663/...heRealBigDawg/
http://dawgbytesfromtherealbigdawg.blogspot.com/
Email:Incoming663@aol.com[/email]

Last edited by Incoming663 : 01-10-2007 at 01:58 PM.
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Old 01-10-2007, 02:00 PM   #14
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Re: Where Is The Respect? A Reply To Posting

Greetings Mr. Wilbanks. I had just written a reply to your reply and before I could finish it disappeared. Gremlins I suppose - lol.
Anyhow, I found you feedback interesting and I thank you for taking the time to respond to it. Not only that, apparently before you made your reply, sir, you did a cursory check of my blog. Same thing I would have done. However, I am sorry that you "profiled" me based on my "Favorite Web sites" and as I inferred from your feedback, you found my posting disingenuous. It wasn't. But I suppose that it could have come across as being self-righteous and sanctimonious on my part.
Sir, I am not a "fan" of anybody. I have been in radio all my adult life crankin' out rock & roll. I have a very thick skin - you have to thick skinned to be in tha biz. I've had death threats, bomb threats, a drive-by shooting when I was on the air, and the "groupie" thing. "Fans" is something that I could never quite figure out. But I digress. As for my blog, yes I do have quite a few loopy web sites under my "Favorite Web Sites." And no ... I am not a fan of some of the web sites that you found offensive. There is, however a method to that madness and it is this: "Never Be Boring." A cardinal rule in broadcasting - and bloging. So, I do stretch the limits of sanity and good taste to engender feedback such as yours. And no, Mr. Wilbanks, I was not offended in the least by your reply to my reply. I found what you wrote perceptive and interesting. I also don't think that you are a "bad guy" at all. I appreciate it when someone just comes out and just tells it like it is without "cotton-mouthing" with pseudo political correctness.
Mr. Wilbanks, when I put on my gi and step onto the floor, I leave all the undesirable elements in this world behind me. The dojo and our members are my family. I have found peace and respect for and from others all my life in the dojo. So I do stand by my posting, "Where's The Respect?" I meant every word of it. If I didn't, I would not be defending it. I hope that you and I can stay in touch from time to time. Cheers.~Dawg~

www.therealbigdawg.com
http://journals.aol.com/incoming663/...heRealBigDawg/
http://dawgbytesfromtherealbigdawg.blogspot.com/
Email: Incoming663@aol.com
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Old 01-10-2007, 02:24 PM   #15
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Re: Where Is The Respect?

Frank Murphy wrote:

Quote:
I am not a fan of some of the web sites that you found offensive. There is, however a method to that madness and it is this: "Never Be Boring." A cardinal rule in broadcasting - and bloging. So, I do stretch the limits of sanity and good taste to engender feedback such as yours.
So at what point do you make an ethical decision to promote/sponsor certain things or to not?

I am not being judgemental, just asking where you stand on this.

Is it all about making money, or getting good ratings or at some point do you say, "this is the line I won't cross, because it is against my personal values/ethics"'?
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Old 01-10-2007, 02:25 PM   #16
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Re: Where Is The Respect?

A 1,000 pardons for the double posting. My bad.~Dawg
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Old 01-10-2007, 02:53 PM   #17
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Re: Where Is The Respect?

Quote:
Frank Murphy wrote:



So at what point do you make an ethical decision to promote/sponsor certain things or to not?

I am not being judgemental, just asking where you stand on this.

Is it all about making money, or getting good ratings or at some point do you say, "this is the line I won't cross, because it is against my personal values/ethics"'?
An interesting question. Perhaps if you could check out my AOL blog site and give me some specificity, it might help me to give you an intelligent answer. I am the antithisis of a Howard Stern - I hope - and do not go beyond community standards on the web site. But, a friend of mine has advised me that I do cross the line from time to time. And honestly, yes ... numbers (ratings) are unfortunately a motivating force. I have always gone by the code that there are some things real men do and some things real men don't do. I do have a tendency to put both size 13's in my mouth at times. Maggie, my wife of 30 years does have to reel me in at times.
I did serve my country in the USAF during the 'Nam. I am a practicing Lutheran. I am a political independent. I listen to all sides. And, I must say that this is the first time that I have been doing the blog that I have ever been really challenged and forced to think about how I make MY points, sir.
You give me pause. The site is this: Http://journals.aol.com/incoming663/...heRealBigdawg/
I hope to hear back from you,sir. All my best.=Frank

Last edited by Incoming663 : 01-10-2007 at 03:01 PM.
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Old 01-10-2007, 02:57 PM   #18
Neil Mick
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Re: Where Is The Respect?

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
Neil, How do you believe you can acheive a better understanding of harmony, or promote it through the discussion of politics?
A good question. I believe that I have already achieved this goal, in small ways. But, harmony is not a constant-state. People in harmony today could become bitter enemies tomorrow, through the misuse of a single word. I've seen it happen.

But, to answer your question: harmony is achieved by blending. You listen to the other's argument and try to understand why s/he feels this way; not to be confused with "trying to guess WHO the person is," but WHY they feel this way.

It is also a good idea, as Luc Sarafim recently posted, to begin with the basic statement that everyone has a point of view, and a good reason for their political beliefs. In a sense, everyone is right.

Last edited by Neil Mick : 01-10-2007 at 03:06 PM.
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Old 01-10-2007, 02:58 PM   #19
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Where Is The Respect?

I've had it happen to me. Trying to learn...trying to be better...

Frank, I commend the way you handle yourself here, in any case. Welcome.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 01-10-2007, 03:05 PM   #20
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Re: Where Is The Respect?

Oh man, Ron ... I have my feet to the fire sir. Thanks so much for the moral support. Most web sites are extremely trashy and my filters are to the max, but some still get throught. Thanks again, Ron. Maggie just got home so I'll get her down-to-earth critique of all this. She ismy barometer.=Frank
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Old 01-10-2007, 03:10 PM   #21
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Re: Where Is The Respect?

Frank Murphy wrote:

Quote:
I have always gone by the code that there are some things real men do and some things real men don't do.
can you give some examples?
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Old 01-10-2007, 03:14 PM   #22
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Where Is The Respect?

I see Neil, it is like a verbal randori for you. Make some sense. I was looking at it slightly different I guess. Glad I asked first.

I am reading a couple of books right now. one by Krishnamurti.

Here is a quote to that I was pondering.

"All ideologies are idiotic, whether religious or political, for it is conceptual thinking, the conceptual word, which has so unfortunately divided man." J. Krishnamurti
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Old 01-10-2007, 03:20 PM   #23
Neil Mick
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Re: Where Is The Respect?

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
I see Neil, it is like a verbal randori for you.
Yes, exactly.

Quote:
I am reading a couple of books right now. one by Krishnamurti.

Here is a quote to that I was pondering.
Quote:
J. Krishnamurti wrote:
"All ideologies are idiotic, whether religious or political, for it is conceptual thinking, the conceptual word, which has so unfortunately divided man."
Hmm, an interesting thought. So, would you suggest, then: that the way out of our polarized climate in the US would be to eschew political conversation, and stay away from any belief which might pull you to one side of a poitical/ideological debate, or another?

Isn't that what the bulk of the US population already does?

Last edited by Neil Mick : 01-10-2007 at 03:22 PM. Reason: sp
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Old 01-10-2007, 03:36 PM   #24
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Where Is The Respect?

I am talking in ideals of course, and not reality (although it would be nice and something to have as a goal).

I suppose that the bottomline is that in any thing we do we should seek to be geniune and truthful, and take action based on this. That is, we'd do what was right for people, not necesssarily for what was good for a particular group of people, or an particular agenda.

I admit, that this is very difficult to do.

To answer your question directly. I think that at some point that one side might be right, genuine, and truthful on a particular issue, therefore, you would make a choice to take action that aligns with that side.

So, you would again upset the balance and be accused of being polictical (polarized). it would simply go back and forth under the duality of it and you would have agendas, mistrust, and politics.

To truly accomplish this, you need to have everyone involved with seeking to solve the problem from a point of truth.

Okay...so here is the problem. Because we have so many perspectives, motivational factors, ideologies, and beliefs...then everyone thinks they are right and truthful!

If we had everyone aligned under the same ideology etc...well then you have things like cults, dictators...etc.

Seems you cannot win!

All we can do I think is worry about ourselves, keep this in mind..that is...that we are influenced by ideology. My mindful decisions, and thnk hard about how the choice we make impact the world.

If enough people did this, then things would gradually move in the right direction.

What choice do we have?

Hence, why I never get into those political discussions with you Neil! I read them from time to time...but I don't get the same practice in randori that you do from them. Just a different perspective.

Good conversation Neil.

Thanks.
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Old 01-10-2007, 03:47 PM   #25
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Re: Where Is The Respect?

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote:
...But, to answer your question: harmony is achieved by blending. You listen to the other's argument and try to understand why s/he feels this way; not to be confused with "trying to guess WHO the person is," but WHY they feel this way. ..

How does this view harmonize with you putting people on ignore when you disagree with them?
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