Testing limits

Good one Eric

Originally posted by Young-In Park I, unlike the durable Peter, am a delicate flower. I don't understand why people keep trying to violently rip my petals off... YoungIn

Don't worry I too am but a delicate flower of nature.

Firm believer in the tap and back off rule and am proud of the fact that there are very few injuries where I practice.

Like our friend Chuck Clarke always points out - you don't need pain to make a technique work.

Originally posted by ze'ev erlich Hi, I am sure he didn't want to damage your wrist. He may did want to hurt you a bit more than usual, but I don't think it is possible he had any intention to break something. The only thing one can do is to remember that Nikkyo and Sankyo can be really dangerous. You must let your sensei know of any pain or problem you have. I am sure he will be careful.

I would disagree...it seems there are two types of folks getting injured in this thread:

1. Those who value a macho image more than the ability to train without injury, and so refuse to tap when their joints are being damaged


2. Those who tap, and yet the technique continues and they get damaged, despite the fact that I would assume as a shodan they have at least adequate ukemi.

I would say that a sensei or shihan can feel a joint that is about to be damaged, and knows what a tap means. So a sensei or shihan who damages his dan level uke, especially in a pin, either was unable to feel the damage he was inflicting ,
or he meant to do it
perhaps he just had an off day, but then I would expect an appology and certainly not a repeat performance.

and Young-In Park, I got the joke...laughed out loud
especially since I'm usually uke first.

Originally posted by PeterR I saw it the same way as what you described happened to you - it wasn't a brutal crank just slow and steady.

Welll... we're not just talking about a little pain here, he actually did long-term damage to the joint, so even though it was slow and steady I cant help thinking it was brutal too. I'd prefer to think that the damage done was down to misjudgement rather than malice, but while inficting pain is open to interpretation, inflicting damage is always out of line in my opinion.

Personally, if someone inflicts a little pain on me, thats fine. Whether its part of some rite of passage, a form of misogi, or just slightly over-enthusiastic kime, that isn't a problem. (I mean a little pain never hurt anyone, right? )

But damage is another matter. I'm self-employed and I work with my hands. After the training is done, I need all four limbs in good working order or I'm not going to be able to pay the rent.

Well I was talking about Shodokan Honbu which definately has good representation from both sexes. One of the things you would notice if you spent anytime there is that there is a mutual agreement as to what happens to you. There are men and women who don't want to go to the level of budo training that other men and women do and make no mistake the training is budo in its truest sense. There is a certain amount of toughening up that goes on but only to those who want to go there. That said the shaved head was definately a guy thing and the weeping friction burns were a result of me pushing myself and getting pushed to bring my ukemi up to the level I wanted it and where I thought Nariyama wanted it.

Well the 'all lads together' thing was really just a cheap shot, but its the head-shaving thing I meant really.

A few mat burns, bumps and bruises or whatever, are of course just a part of training hard. And both sexes are pretty well represented in the UK too, as far as that's concerned. (I hear honbu dojo recently got some brand new mats, and pretty much everyone has terrible friction burns at the moment anyway.)

The way things are at the moment, I dont think I'll ever be in a position to spend the kind of time at honbu dojo that you have. But I certainly do hope to at least make a short visit (weeks rather than months probably) some time in the next year or two. Since my time there will be pretty limited, I'll probably be looking to train pretty intensely to make the most of it.

If things work out for you in Himeji (any word yet, by the way?), hopefully, I'll see you there!

Well yes Sean it is and you are - but it still is a milestone in the context of your training until that time. At Shodokan Honbu for instance Dan grade has other meaning beyond a passing of a technique requirement. Ask Scott to translate the kanji on his belt and what the kun represents. Good luck by the way and let us know how it went.

I didn't get a chance to ask Scott about that tonight, as we usually save that kind of discussion for the pub after training, and he had to rush off tonight. I'll have to get back to you on that one.

Of course I do see my shodan as a milestone. Its just that I really set myself up for a fall with my judo shodan, and I dont intend to repeat the mistake of thinking it means more than it does. If and when I do get there, dont worry, I'll definitely let you know.

Maybe O'Sensei hurt your shihan back in the day as a rite of passage. If so, maybe that's why he thought it was the right thing to do. Maybe not.

Drew

p.s. Maybe we should develop (esp. men) rites of passage that do not involve pain. Maybe a new shodan could funnel two beers at once while shihan pours. Well, you know, just a thought.

Originally posted by Suru p.s. Maybe we should develop (esp. men) rites of passage that do not involve pain. Maybe a new shodan could funnel two beers at once while shihan pours. Well, you know, just a thought.

Funnel? Beer bong? Same thing?

WTF is he doing? Let him know one way or another. Me sensei would would tie him in a knot.

Jon

What is budo? Budo is right action. The samurai takes care of his own soul, his own sword, and then helps those under him. You have a duty to care for yourself. If you are negligent then it will effect others.

In some ways I prefered the rites substituted for pain in the fighter squadrons I've been assigned to...perhaps because breaking something means being temporarily (or----permanently) grounded, alcohol was generally found in abundance, pain/risk of damage not so much.

There was always the risk that too much of the former could still result in injury (especially when coupled with the fighter pilots' belief in invincibility), and I've left more than one Dining In or green/brown bean sweep to patch up a squadron member, but for the most part manhood involved copious amounts of beer.

It could be that the guys saved the really painful parts for when I wasn't around, but since they had no problem treating me as male the rest of the time, I think I saw it all...

Oops, make that "copious amounts of beer and Jerimiah Weed "...sorry, Quaker, how could I forget...

Originally posted by deepsoup Welll... we're not just talking about a little pain here, he actually did long-term damage to the joint, so even though it was slow and steady I cant help thinking it was brutal too. I'd prefer to think that the damage done was down to misjudgement rather than malice, but while inficting pain is open to interpretation, inflicting damage is always out of line in my opinion. Personally, if someone inflicts a little pain on me, thats fine. Whether its part of some rite of passage, a form of misogi, or just slightly over-enthusiastic kime, that isn't a problem. (I mean a little pain never hurt anyone, right? ) But damage is another matter. I'm self-employed and I work with my hands. After the training is done, I need all four limbs in good working order or I'm not going to be able to pay the rent.

Point taken and agreed, I've had some nagging injuries that occured during training but not inflicted on purpose. Nariyama has done me a couple of times but the soreness disappeared after a couple of days if not by the next morning. If the discomfort had lasted as long as the first poster describes I might think differently although accidents do happen. On re-reading the original post it appears it is a repeat performance - I would have said something.

Well the 'all lads together' thing was really just a cheap shot, but its the head-shaving thing I meant really.

Michael McCavish, Alan Higgs and me a little drunker than I should have been. I had just been told everything was fine for my Shodan except my ukemi - I had less than a week to get it right. The shaved head was to show my dedication.

The way things are at the moment, I dont think I'll ever be in a position to spend the kind of time at honbu dojo that you have. But I certainly do hope to at least make a short visit (weeks rather than months probably) some time in the next year or two. Since my time there will be pretty limited, I'll probably be looking to train pretty intensely to make the most of it. If things work out for you in Himeji (any word yet, by the way?), hopefully, I'll see you there!

Well it did work out (unless everything falls apart) and you will see me there. Himeji is a bit far from Osaka but I plan to train there at least one day on the weekend. There are multiple classes. I have been invited to train with a Koryu there but need to get Nariyama's permision and an introduction letter.

I didn't get a chance to ask Scott about that tonight, as we usually save that kind of discussion for the pub after training, and he had to rush off tonight. I'll have to get back to you on that one.

Well the kanji before the name means presented to and the kanji after the name means kun (affectionate title for little boys). Nariyama pays for the belt out of his own pocket. It is his present to you and means you have become his student. Before that you buy your own belt and you are the responsibility of others. Of course he teaches you but its sort of a line in the sand.

Of course I do see my shodan as a milestone. Its just that I really set myself up for a fall with my judo shodan, and I dont intend to repeat the mistake of thinking it means more than it does. If and when I do get there, dont worry, I'll definitely let you know.

I understood. So many make that mistake still.

Hello,

Colleen - Jeremiah Weed You may be trying a bit too hard to "fit in"

In the big missile world, we usually have the new troops report in to the missile combat crew by saluting the on site radar pole. We tell the new guy that the officer's in the capsule can see them through the camera mounted on the pole (no such camera exists). The less than star-bright troops will walk up to the pole and give the proper reporting statement. It's actually pretty funny. Have a good day!

Hi Louis, I never touched the Weed (I don't drink, hence the 7-Up for me, rather than OB, sanctioned by my tolerant squadron)...just patched up the end result of what seemed like a good idea to male minds under the influence

Sounds like missle duty is not as serious as I had assumed

Originally posted by PeterR Well it did work out (unless everything falls apart) and you will see me there. Himeji is a bit far from Osaka but I plan to train there at least one day on the weekend. There are multiple classes. I have been invited to train with a Koryu there but need to get Nariyama's permision and an introduction letter.

Top sausage! Congratulations and good luck. By 'Koryu', do you mean a traditional form of budo, something other than aikido? Will gaining Shihan's permission be a just a formality, or is it something he'll have to think about? (Please feel free to ignore these questions if I'm being too nosey, btw. )

Well the kanji before the name means presented to and the kanji after the name means kun (affectionate title for little boys). Nariyama pays for the belt out of his own pocket. It is his present to you and means you have become his student. Before that you buy your own belt and you are the responsibility of others. Of course he teaches you but its sort of a line in the sand.

Ah, I see. (Although you'll have to excuse me for a moment, while I try to grasp the idea of applying an affectionate title for little boys to Mr McCavish. )

Sean
x

Originally posted by deepsoup Will gaining Shihan's permission be a just a formality, or is it something he'll have to think about?

Its a Japanese thing. Even in Japan I could go and just do it but in talking with the Koryu (old stream, schools established before the Meiji restroation) guy one of the first questions he asked was there a problem with my Budo. I told him the only problem was distance, that I would continue to train once a week at Shodokan Honbu, was very happy with the training there and that these were my friends. In fact what I was doing was exploring the options and would ask Nariyama for his advice. He agreed that this was a good idea and I should get Nariyama's permision and a letter of introduction.

Is it a formality?

I have been told by Nariyama not to train in certain places but I believe a lot of that had to do with the quality of instruction. I was introduced to Shodokan Honbu through connections - the most important being a Judo friend of Nariyama - I'm told it is important but I did not see a difference. He may say no - its a real possiblity - he may suggest an alternative or he may say nothing at all.

I see Budo training as more than just a collection of techniques and in this regard have put myself entirely in Nariyama's hands. He takes Budo very seriously and I can assume that if he does say no there are valid reasons for it. A high ranking Judo guy in Nariyama's presence said I should do Judo but I am more interested in weapons for the moment. anyway - its all discussion and not reality for the moment.

Hello,

Colleen - Glad to hear you are making use of common sense.

Missile duty isn't too laid back, but what else can you do when you're working in the middle of a field surrounded by miles of flat, barren prairie?

Happy Training!

Hi Peter,

Thanks for your very thorough answer. This forum can be pretty educational at times, cant it?

Regards
Sean.