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Old 01-22-2011, 07:49 PM   #201
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Hi, I'm confused. Why has this thread been moved to this section?

Regards, G.
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Old 01-22-2011, 08:31 PM   #202
phitruong
Dojo: Charlotte Aikikai Agatsu Dojo
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Michael Hackett wrote: View Post
Thank you all. Believe me, I understand the value of a teacher - learning something through experience is like taking the test before the instruction. My curiosity overcame me and I wanted to take a quick look. Now my curiosity is greater.......
thought i mention a pitfall (with punji sticks). IS/IT/aiki isn't an add-on skill, as in you just learn it and attach, like velcro, to your already great skill sets. it requires a major change in your body. while your body goes through the change, your martial arts will suffer greatly, i.e. what worked before often won't work. This is detriment to teachers or folks of high rank in martial arts. teachers have a responsibility teach and their students cannot wait for the teachers to re-acquire the skill level. for others, their current martial arts training is detriment to their IS/IT/aiki training. there are folks who had quit their martial arts in order to focus on IT/IP/aiki training and waiting for a time when they are ready to rejoin their martial arts practices. in many ways, i admired teachers like Gleason sensei and others who want to pursuit this path. it takes great courage and humility for folks of their position to do this.

if you keep at it and not worry whether your martial arts practices work or not for awhile, and let your body relearns the good way of moving. one day, you realize that your martial arts take a jumping leap over many walls in your path. remember, pride and ego will do their best to deter you. those who said they have no pride or ego, this is the test.

i remembered reading about Endo sensei where he started the IS practice while he was high ranked. he said none of his aikido techniques work. he had to ask his uke to take ukemi for him anyway, i.e. tanking it for him. it took him many years to rewire his body. today, his aikido is phenomenon. what i felt from Endo sensei, i felt the same in Ikeda sensei.

beware of this pitfall (i have unhealed scars from it).
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Old 01-22-2011, 09:39 PM   #203
Lorel Latorilla
Location: Osaka
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
Well, I am not talking about the physical side of technique but rather what I would call the "energetic side". There is a huge amount that he and the Systema guys do which relates to the action of consciousness on the partner / opponent. Ushiro has a set of DVDs that show him doing class in Japan but unless someone has posted clips on You Tube I am not going to post things from his DVDs.

Also, I would tend to agree, to the limit of my understanding, that Systema is not using internal strength in the manner you would mean. That doesn't mean thet Vlad or Ryabko could kill you with a strike that looked like nothing, but it isn't what you guys are doing and that was more my point.

I am not a student of Ushiro Sensei although I have been on the mat with him far more times than I've managed with you guys. I am good friends with both of his personal American students and have discussed what he teaches at length with them. The work contained in his kata, like Sanchin Kata, is straight internal power training. But I only throw him out along with Systema, which I also only do periodically, for folks to think about. Ushiro Sensei will be at my dojo in October of 2011 and folks can decide for themselves.

In terms of overall emphasis in the training, there is a greater similarity between Systema and Ushiro Karate than with what I have seen of the IS work. There is a huge emphasis on how consciousness effects your own body, the opponent's body, how the quality of that consciousness ie emotional content for instance totally changes how the energy of a strike transfers to what is struck, etc. Perhaps you guys do teach that and I have only seen your most basic exercises. But as I said to Tony, I think the "we do that" syndrome cuts both ways. And in my experience you guys, as fantastically skilled as you are no less likely to reject something outside your paradigm as the other folks I know. That's simply my experience, which being limited to short contacts with you guys, so generously provided by you guys I might add, could be wrong. I am not fixed on any of this as it all falls outside of what I consider my area of expertise, which is limited to the Aikido I have worked out so far.

I am no more an "expert" on what he does than I am at what you do. Both things have effected and improved my Aikido but I am not an appropriate person to be "representing" here. I simply post as a sort of consciousness raising effort. I think every serious student of the art should check you and Ark and Dan out. I think they should play with Howard and Toby whenever they can. I absolutely believe that they should experience Vladimir or Michael Ryabko and Ushiro Kenji. Then they can decide for themselves. These guys all live here or come here to the US, often several times a year. You guys have made yourselves very available to all of us. It's just a matter of effort required for folks to get the exposure. Then they can decide what they think and their opinions will be far better than anything I'd say about it.
Great post George. I've personally trained with both Vlad and Ark, and while there are cross-overs, they are definitely doing different things. Vlad is ridiculously strong (not strong in the muscular strength btw, his muscles are soft) and very very nimble. On the other hand, Ark is of course very strong, and has strikes that can take your balance right away. But if you silence your mental talk, you can feel different things when you are standing in front of these guys. With Ark, you know not to f*** with him, because you can feel his intent to bring you down. With Vlad, it's weird--you can't feel his intent, his ki, or whatever. He hides it. But at the same time, you feel that he knows what you can do, based on how you're standing and where you are initiating movement from. This all lends into being sucked into a black whole (as opposed to Ark just bowling you over with his power in all directions--like being in a blender). Hiding your intent, your skills, whatever, until it is needed is a big part of Systema--that's why they never assume stances.

Now, I think you can reach that plain of 'hiding' intent until you are fairly well-connected and can move well, which in that case, Ark's system can help you with the foundation for these other skills needed for bujutsu. I personally am going through a period where I am getting interesting glimpses of this 'ki' stuff that Ushiro Kenji and Vlad and Mihkail obviously know about. Conditioning is a big part of Systema (for the most part, they condition the connective tissues like the joints etc. through bodyweight exercises and sometimes kettlebells) but seeing as Systema is a full-blown martial system--the focus is not on conditioning. However, stuff like awareness training, and breathing stuff (which I still do today) to manage fear or stress in combat are the crown jewels of Systema...and this is something that the internal guys need to be aware of as well (breath training is only used to condition the body, and not something to manage, say, fear in your body). I've trained in the Mecca of North America Systema in Toronto, but none of the guys, and some of them are really good, there can replicate what Vlad can do. There is a lot to be said about having a good connected body that moves well--this is essentially the basis for the 'ki' things that advanced Systema/Ushiro Karate (I might go to a seminar here in Osaka) gets into I believe.

'Ki' on its own is pretty weak. From what I see of Ushiro, he teaches this stuff at a very early stage. I have students that have very strong ki-ai, and use it to control other students, and sometimes even the teacher, but I know I can kick their asses (little grade sixers). Noticing ki in the other person and using your ki-ai to dominate them is of course a core part of bujutsu--using that with a connected, skilled body is high level martial arts. Vlad can express this in spades, and I think all that hiding 'intent' stuff is part of the training he got as a Special Operations soldier. I've personally never experienced Ark do this, so I'm not gonna say whether he can do it or not. However, if he was trained in this stuff, I'd say he'd get it fairly quickly, because I know he already uses psychological elements (his ki-ai is more "I'm gonna bowl you over, mofo.."--at least that's what I felt) to affect the opponent.

Last edited by Lorel Latorilla : 01-22-2011 at 09:51 PM. Reason: additional talk on ki

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
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Old 01-22-2011, 09:43 PM   #204
Michael Hackett
Dojo: Kenshinkan Dojo (Aikido of North County) Vista, CA
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Phi,
I have experienced punji stakes before - didn't like 'em much. I don't know that I'm willing to leap over your metaphorical punji pit until I get a chance to attend one of the workshops and feel it for myself. At the last AikiExpo I got to feel Ikeda Sensei and got to train directly with Ledyard Sensei. Ikeda Sensei felt like a ghost to me and Ledyard Sensei was just simply a terrific practitioner. If he is seeking this stuff, there must be something to it that I don't understand. Thanks for the warning. I may just fall in.

Michael
"Leave the gun. Bring the cannoli."
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Old 01-22-2011, 09:46 PM   #205
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
Well, I am not talking about the physical side of technique but rather what I would call the "energetic side". There is a huge amount that he and the Systema guys do which relates to the action of consciousness on the partner / opponent. Ushiro has a set of DVDs that show him doing class in Japan but unless someone has posted clips on You Tube I am not going to post things from his DVDs.

Also, I would tend to agree, to the limit of my understanding, that Systema is not using internal strength in the manner you would mean. That doesn't mean thet Vlad or Ryabko could kill you with a strike that looked like nothing, but it isn't what you guys are doing and that was more my point.

I am not a student of Ushiro Sensei although I have been on the mat with him far more times than I've managed with you guys. I am good friends with both of his personal American students and have discussed what he teaches at length with them. The work contained in his kata, like Sanchin Kata, is straight internal power training. But I only throw him out along with Systema, which I also only do periodically, for folks to think about. Ushiro Sensei will be at my dojo in October of 2011 and folks can decide for themselves.

In terms of overall emphasis in the training, there is a greater similarity between Systema and Ushiro Karate than with what I have seen of the IS work. There is a huge emphasis on how consciousness effects your own body, the opponent's body, how the quality of that consciousness ie emotional content for instance totally changes how the energy of a strike transfers to what is struck, etc. Perhaps you guys do teach that and I have only seen your most basic exercises. But as I said to Tony, I think the "we do that" syndrome cuts both ways. And in my experience you guys, as fantastically skilled as you are no less likely to reject something outside your paradigm as the other folks I know. That's simply my experience, which being limited to short contacts with you guys, so generously provided by you guys I might add, could be wrong. I am not fixed on any of this as it all falls outside of what I consider my area of expertise, which is limited to the Aikido I have worked out so far.

I am no more an "expert" on what he does than I am at what you do. Both things have effected and improved my Aikido but I am not an appropriate person to be "representing" here. I simply post as a sort of consciousness raising effort. I think every serious student of the art should check you and Ark and Dan out. I think they should play with Howard and Toby whenever they can. I absolutely believe that they should experience Vladimir or Michael Ryabko and Ushiro Kenji. Then they can decide for themselves. These guys all live here or come here to the US, often several times a year. You guys have made yourselves very available to all of us. It's just a matter of effort required for folks to get the exposure. Then they can decide what they think and their opinions will be far better than anything I'd say about it.
George, I appreciate your reply. Put yourself in my place and read both yours and Lorel's replies, though, and look for an explicative answer to what I asked for. I'm not seeing any substantive answers to what I asked for explicitly, although the emotional-context is quite high and the descriptive words are moving. Of course it's possible that this is the wrong forum to ask explicitly for examples, but I just thought I'd throw it out there.

Best.

Mike Sigman
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Old 01-22-2011, 10:05 PM   #206
Lorel Latorilla
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Re: Training Internal Strength

To quote George:

"Also, I would tend to agree, to the limit of my understanding, that Systema is not using internal strength in the manner you would mean. That doesn't mean thet Vlad or Ryabko could kill you with a strike that looked like nothing, but it isn't what you guys are doing and that was more my point."

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Old 01-22-2011, 10:09 PM   #207
Budd
 
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
Well, I am not talking about the physical side of technique but rather what I would call the "energetic side". There is a huge amount that he and the Systema guys do which relates to the action of consciousness on the partner / opponent. Ushiro has a set of DVDs that show him doing class in Japan but unless someone has posted clips on You Tube I am not going to post things from his DVDs.
I actually think this would be a fantastic topic of discussion to get more into - as Marc and I have talked offline about this regarding Ushiro. I think it's important to point out where this potentially adds value to someone's martial arts practice - even if ends up not being the same as what people are talking about from the "internal strength perspective". Before anyone gets defensive - I'm not saying it is or isn't - as I've not experienced Ushiro nor Ryabko. But where I think the interesting overlap is going back to Ikeda - as he's showing basic Jin and connection things in the video demos that are out there (which should be easily explainable if you understand the basics) - but if there's a different/additional component regarding the "energetic work" as espoused by Ushiro or Ryabko - I'd love to hear about it.

And those that do get exposure to it - my challenge back would be - how's it work? I think those are the conversations we need to be having - because on one level people are training to be the best aikido practitioners they can be, but I'd heartily disagree that many of these practices can be looked at as "add-ons" . . more like they have to be foundational in the overall practice - those that are trying to keep performing the chosen art and incorporate these foundational skills have the extra challenge of rewiring the fundamentals while still conforming to the "shape" of their practice (and Ushiro's quote about what you "know" being the enemy to learning is dead on in that regard).

So, I have pretty dogmatic views of what's considered IS based on my biases - fine with admitting that. But that doesn't mean I'm not interested in what others are doing. Certain types of formats are going to appeal to me more than others and I'm not terribly mobile right now with the young 'uns. Another couple years (which I think will be well-spent carrying on with the re-wiring and conditioning the Internal Strength demands above all else, then goofing off with the MMA folks while picking up something new, like fencing maybe) and I'll be more mobile to get out and about again. 'Til then I gotta pick and choose. But that doesn't mean I don't want to participate in the discussion with those getting out and about and doing the work to transform their bodies.

Because I think that's what's going on at the end of the day with the Internal Strength skills - you're fundamentally changing how your body moves and responds - not via technique, it's a deeper level thing about how it carries itself that then effects everything - a basic touch, a technique, any body-to-body connection. This other area that's being spoken to - "energetics" I'm curious and want to hear from the people doing the work . . does it fall in the IS space legitimitely? How? Why?

Let's have the discussion. I'll make the effort to get hands on, too, but I've written a number of times in detail how my training has changed and taken shape already with what I'm working on, now, so those doing this "energetic" stuff - pony up, huh?
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Old 01-22-2011, 10:35 PM   #208
Tony Wagstaffe
Location: Winchester
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
Well, I am not talking about the physical side of technique but rather what I would call the "energetic side". There is a huge amount that he and the Systema guys do which relates to the action of consciousness on the partner / opponent. Ushiro has a set of DVDs that show him doing class in Japan but unless someone has posted clips on You Tube I am not going to post things from his DVDs.

Also, I would tend to agree, to the limit of my understanding, that Systema is not using internal strength in the manner you would mean. That doesn't mean thet Vlad or Ryabko could kill you with a strike that looked like nothing, but it isn't what you guys are doing and that was more my point.

I am not a student of Ushiro Sensei although I have been on the mat with him far more times than I've managed with you guys. I am good friends with both of his personal American students and have discussed what he teaches at length with them. The work contained in his kata, like Sanchin Kata, is straight internal power training. But I only throw him out along with Systema, which I also only do periodically, for folks to think about. Ushiro Sensei will be at my dojo in October of 2011 and folks can decide for themselves.

In terms of overall emphasis in the training, there is a greater similarity between Systema and Ushiro Karate than with what I have seen of the IS work. There is a huge emphasis on how consciousness effects your own body, the opponent's body, how the quality of that consciousness ie emotional content for instance totally changes how the energy of a strike transfers to what is struck, etc. Perhaps you guys do teach that and I have only seen your most basic exercises. But as I said to Tony, I think the "we do that" syndrome cuts both ways. And in my experience you guys, as fantastically skilled as you are no less likely to reject something outside your paradigm as the other folks I know. That's simply my experience, which being limited to short contacts with you guys, so generously provided by you guys I might add, could be wrong. I am not fixed on any of this as it all falls outside of what I consider my area of expertise, which is limited to the Aikido I have worked out so far.

I am no more an "expert" on what he does than I am at what you do. Both things have effected and improved my Aikido but I am not an appropriate person to be "representing" here. I simply post as a sort of consciousness raising effort. I think every serious student of the art should check you and Ark and Dan out. I think they should play with Howard and Toby whenever they can. I absolutely believe that they should experience Vladimir or Michael Ryabko and Ushiro Kenji. Then they can decide for themselves. These guys all live here or come here to the US, often several times a year. You guys have made yourselves very available to all of us. It's just a matter of effort required for folks to get the exposure. Then they can decide what they think and their opinions will be far better than anything I'd say about it.
That's fair comment George, and I'll try to take on board constructive views to anything these guys have to offer..... I get the feeling that I'm not that far removed from what IS training is about, but see it in another context...... I call it isometric/isotonic training which has been around for millennia in one form or another. Gymnasts are past masters at it. It must have similarities...... Thanks....
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Old 01-22-2011, 10:45 PM   #209
Lorel Latorilla
Location: Osaka
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
I actually think this would be a fantastic topic of discussion to get more into - as Marc and I have talked offline about this regarding Ushiro. I think it's important to point out where this potentially adds value to someone's martial arts practice - even if ends up not being the same as what people are talking about from the "internal strength perspective". Before anyone gets defensive - I'm not saying it is or isn't - as I've not experienced Ushiro nor Ryabko. But where I think the interesting overlap is going back to Ikeda - as he's showing basic Jin and connection things in the video demos that are out there (which should be easily explainable if you understand the basics) - but if there's a different/additional component regarding the "energetic work" as espoused by Ushiro or Ryabko - I'd love to hear about it.

And those that do get exposure to it - my challenge back would be - how's it work? I think those are the conversations we need to be having - because on one level people are training to be the best aikido practitioners they can be, but I'd heartily disagree that many of these practices can be looked at as "add-ons" . . more like they have to be foundational in the overall practice - those that are trying to keep performing the chosen art and incorporate these foundational skills have the extra challenge of rewiring the fundamentals while still conforming to the "shape" of their practice (and Ushiro's quote about what you "know" being the enemy to learning is dead on in that regard).

So, I have pretty dogmatic views of what's considered IS based on my biases - fine with admitting that. But that doesn't mean I'm not interested in what others are doing. Certain types of formats are going to appeal to me more than others and I'm not terribly mobile right now with the young 'uns. Another couple years (which I think will be well-spent carrying on with the re-wiring and conditioning the Internal Strength demands above all else, then goofing off with the MMA folks while picking up something new, like fencing maybe) and I'll be more mobile to get out and about again. 'Til then I gotta pick and choose. But that doesn't mean I don't want to participate in the discussion with those getting out and about and doing the work to transform their bodies.

Because I think that's what's going on at the end of the day with the Internal Strength skills - you're fundamentally changing how your body moves and responds - not via technique, it's a deeper level thing about how it carries itself that then effects everything - a basic touch, a technique, any body-to-body connection. This other area that's being spoken to - "energetics" I'm curious and want to hear from the people doing the work . . does it fall in the IS space legitimitely? How? Why?

Let's have the discussion. I'll make the effort to get hands on, too, but I've written a number of times in detail how my training has changed and taken shape already with what I'm working on, now, so those doing this "energetic" stuff - pony up, huh?
Hi Budd,

I remember a conversation that a notable martial artist had about ki-ai--it was really enlightening for me. He basically took the idea of 'ki-ai' that you often hear Kendo or Karate people do when they go for an attack--all that was to psychologically disorient and manipulate the opponent (this is how the 'energetics' work). Some ki-ais work to freeze the opponent (instill fear in the person, and disrupt breathing patterns) or make them run away. There are also ki-ais that are not necessarily shouted--that is they are silent. But it is all done in a manner to disorient the opponent psychologically. Martial artists are not the only ones that can use this skill--this guy talked about Obama, seducers, bullies, etc. using this to control other people, to control crowds. This same man mentioned that you don't need bodyskill for ki-ai (someone can scream at you and ki-ai at you all you want but can collapse at your feet due to having a weak body), but bodyskill can make your ki-ai better. I think this question is best asked for those guys who are in a Koryu, as I know Koryu systems have this ki-ai component in their arts.

I'm learning this on the go (experimenting with it) and have not personally trained this as a separate skill set in, say, a sogo bujutsu school, so I don't think I can offer any advice on how it's trained. All I know is that it is out there, and that I have experienced it, and it has little to do with 'internal strength' and doesn't necessarily fall in the field of 'IS" (I don't think George said anything that this is another form of 'internal strength'--just another skill set separate from IS), although one can make the case that 'internal strength' can make ki-ai sharper. And ki-ai on its own is worth nothing--you can have a strong ki-ai but you can still get knocked out and punched in your face if you don't know how to move.

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Old 01-22-2011, 11:09 PM   #210
Budd
 
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Yeah, definitely outside my strengths - actually have been working on that on my own as the "controlling/hiding of intent" was very present when I dabbled in koryu, I had not really given much importance to it until the last year or so.

I think from a combatives perspective, I'd be interested in learning more, for sure. But would still come back to the standpoint of wanting to dig into how it works - as part of the overall corporate knowledge base. It doesn't minimize the amount of training and work that goes into being successful, but hopefully removes some of the mystique so that its place as an explicitly trained skillset is more readilly catalogued and identified.
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Old 01-22-2011, 11:28 PM   #211
Lorel Latorilla
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
Yeah, definitely outside my strengths - actually have been working on that on my own as the "controlling/hiding of intent" was very present when I dabbled in koryu, I had not really given much importance to it until the last year or so.

I think from a combatives perspective, I'd be interested in learning more, for sure. But would still come back to the standpoint of wanting to dig into how it works - as part of the overall corporate knowledge base. It doesn't minimize the amount of training and work that goes into being successful, but hopefully removes some of the mystique so that its place as an explicitly trained skillset is more readilly catalogued and identified.
Oh I'm definitely with you there. And I think George's post was good in the sense that there are other things that we need to train besides and separate from bodyskill. And Ushiro and Vlad and Mihkail just some guys in the lime light who are known for this stuff and possibly have a regiment in training these skills. Now we can get into a conversation about how to train this. Any takers?

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Old 01-22-2011, 11:38 PM   #212
DH
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Hmm...interesting turn.
Internal power, how it effects and creates aiki, the complexities of aiki, breath-power, Ki, now Koryu, (sogo bujutsu at that) intent, Kiai,projecting Ki into cones of awareness-say with long weapons, hiding intent...certainly an interesting mix.
Cheers
Dan
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Old 01-22-2011, 11:40 PM   #213
Budd
 
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Lorel Latorilla wrote: View Post
Oh I'm definitely with you there. And I think George's post was good in the sense that there are other things that we need to train besides and separate from bodyskill. And Ushiro and Vlad and Mihkail just some guys in the lime light who are known for this stuff and possibly have a regiment in training these skills. Now we can get into a conversation about how to train this. Any takers?
Right - perhaps it's different from bodyskill, but it also sounds different enough from a tactic/technique (I don't know, giving it benefit of the doubt in hopes someone can 'splain it better) that it's more foundational work, too? Asking . .
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Old 01-22-2011, 11:47 PM   #214
David Orange
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Lorel Latorilla wrote: View Post
...With Ark, you know not to f*** with him, because you can feel his intent to bring you down. ...Ark just bowling you over with his power in all directions--like being in a blender...
That's definitely who I met! Great description of the man and of his power!

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

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Old 01-23-2011, 12:06 AM   #215
David Orange
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
I get the feeling that I'm not that far removed from what IS training is about, but see it in another context...... I call it isometric/isotonic training which has been around for millennia in one form or another. Gymnasts are past masters at it. It must have similarities...... Thanks....
Yeah. If you're relating it to isometrics/isotonics, you're definitely on the external level. Saying it in any other way would just be to politely waste your time.

George Ledyard put it kindly. The "other context" you mention is called "external" martial arts.

And you're sort of trapped on an ego level of insisting that you "do that, too," on these threads. Everyone keeps telling you you need to get hands on some of the leading practitioners and that's really the only good advice you can get, though some of us have gone into extensive detail about the specifics. I got a lot of good out of being told down on these matters, but that was because I really started studying what was really being said and I seriously contemplated those things, leading to a series of very interesting insights--first on fascia/connective tissue and, more recently on ki (and the ki recognition came directly from deep consideration of the fascia/connective tissue)--but these insights were also fueled by looking at videos of Ark and Rob and trying the exercises they showed, then meeting Ark and, a year later, Dan.

It's not simple or easy and it is very definitely hidden in plain sight. You can have two men, side by side, doing exactly the same forms, but one can be using internal principles and, though he will look the same as the other guy (to most observers), he will be far more powerful.

In short, until you've met some of these serious teachers, you should just forget any notion that you're close to what they do and spend a lot more time thinking about what some people are so kindly trying to explain to you about the internal method.

Gambatte.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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Old 01-23-2011, 04:20 AM   #216
Dave de Vos
 
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Hi, I'm confused. Why has this thread been moved to this section?

Regards, G.
At the start of the thread some remarked that this subject fits better in the Non-Aikido Martial Traditions forum. I realised that they were right, especially now that I see how the conversation unfolds.

I checked the Non-Aikido Martial Traditions forum and read that it was created for topics like these. I started this thread in the wrong forum because I am new here so I am not familiar yet with the purpose of each forum.

So yesterday I asked Jun to move the thread to the forum where it belongs.

Best Regards,
Dave

Last edited by Dave de Vos : 01-23-2011 at 04:25 AM. Reason: typos
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Old 01-23-2011, 04:45 AM   #217
Aikirk
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Well, I'm doing IP/IS too, but in many ways not like Mike, Dan or Ark I would think, but instead a lot like Vlad or Raybko.

I recently quit Aikido, because of me realizing, that the teachers who have done this for 20 or 30 years still are talking about the past masters is if they were gods, so I would certainly never reach any level like that.

Now I'm not at all as experienced as you guys, but I take martial arts training serious and it must work in order to get me satisfied. And this works on a whole other plane than "regular" Aikido.

I do Kyusho Aiki Jutsu (which is an art and not only IS/IP practice) and have crosstrained with Aikido for a while, but found that my Aikido training hampered the KAJ-training. But the KAJ-training quickly improved my Aikido, and in a matter of months, I started to feel that the yudansha's techniques were less effective on me. Not stating that I was anyway near them speaking of technique or understanding of Aikido, but I became way better grounded, softer and composed. In other words they where no longer taking my balance in a way I would have expected black belts to do.

This is not to take anything from Aikido which I enjoyed and still miss sometimes. But there is an huge difference from great Aikido technique, to internal power as i felt in the KAJ-training, and is now trying my best to learn.

I'll try to explain what we do, but as I'm a beginner and these things MUST be felt, it will naturally be incomplete.

We have a close connection to Systema, and once or twice a year Vlad and Ryabko come by Denmark to do a seminar which is to mutual benefit. We steal some of their way of moving while they learn from our extensive knowledge on pressure points. I have yet to meet either Vlad og Ryabko, but that is on my to-do list.

We too, are learning how to transfer energy to deliver huge power in our punches. We learn how to focus our breathing to remain unharmed. We learn to send back energy when punched or merely send the energy into the floor.

We learn the kind of movement Systema does, where good center and posture, breathing, absolute softness and flexibility are critical. We often do movement exercises where three or four people are pushing or punching you trying to unbalance you where you will have to be very soft and to let the force go through you.

Also we practice our punches on each other, not on sandbags. The one who's taking the punch must be totally soft and without tension and the other guy must be just as soft. Mostly we do it on the stomach area. This is also to remove the fear. And then there is infinite ways of taking the punch and delivering the punch.

Intent and visualization are also key factors to KAJ, but they are complex and have a much deeper meaning, and I would not know where to start if I were to explain them.

But what really separates us from the Systema in my mind, apart from the Kyusho, is the way we deal with energy. But this is rather controversial and I don't wish to ruin a great thread.

Our master is Tony Kauhanen who is finnish, and visits us from time to time to do seminars. And from what i've heard and seen, he is "up there".

The chief instructor in my club is in some ways up there too, although he is virtually unknown. But there have been MMA-fighters delivering punches to his stomach only to find out that he's not the least affected. One time a MMA or kungfu guy wanted my instructor to punch him in his stomach with real intent only resulting in this guy having to lie flat on his back the next two weeks because the punch went so deep it affected some old back injury. And he wasn't even close to giving everything he had.

Well that was a long ramble from one who is as excited about this as I guess you are. But it was also for you to see that this is happening many other places and in unrelated schools.

Last edited by Aikirk : 01-23-2011 at 04:53 AM.
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Old 01-23-2011, 05:31 AM   #218
Michael Varin
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Howard Popkin wrote:
On aikiweb you have hundreds of VERY high ranking martial artists across the board who tell you it exists, …
Hundreds? Not sure I've seen all those guys posting. Maybe 8 to 10… maybe.

Quote:
Howard Popkin wrote:
but from your video, you have no idea what they are talking about.
Video is almost useless. This stuff has to be felt. No one can tell what's actually going on in a video.

You can't have it both ways!

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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Old 01-23-2011, 05:35 AM   #219
Michael Varin
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Deleted
Dan,

Why in the world did you delete your post suggesting Mr. Wagstaffe should meet up with you when you are in the UK to discuss aikido and "internal strength" over a few beers?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Hmm...interesting turn.
Internal power, how it effects and creates aiki, the complexities of aiki….
So, is or is not aiki "internal power"?

It's time you clearly define these things, if you are going to be the self-proclaimed expert.

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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Old 01-23-2011, 05:36 AM   #220
oisin bourke
 
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Simon Kirk Sørensen wrote: View Post

But what really separates us from the Systema in my mind, apart from the Kyusho, is the way we deal with energy.
What's the difference between "kyusho" and "energy"?
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Old 01-23-2011, 05:56 AM   #221
Aikirk
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Oisin Bourke wrote: View Post
What's the difference between "kyusho" and "energy"?
We are all energy and everything we do has to do with energy one way or another. In this way there is no difference, but if you understand Kyusho as the teaching of pressure points and energy as the manipulation of energy or flow of energy, that I think is what I mean.

Energy is certainly not restricted to the application of pressure points and pressure points do not have to be struck with energy to work, though this helps. Though I must admit that one must have a certain knowledge of meridians and so forth, if one wishes to do Kyusho on a higher level.

So there is the ordinary energy which any physicist can tell you about, and there is the chi/ki energy which is a chapter to it self. I don't know that much about it, but it's there and it can be felt and manipulated.

You question was a rather broad one, so I hope this answared most of it.
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Old 01-23-2011, 06:24 AM   #222
Lorel Latorilla
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
Dan,

Why in the world did you delete your post suggesting Mr. Wagstaffe should meet up with you when you are in the UK to discuss aikido and "internal strength" over a few beers?

So, is or is not aiki "internal power"?

It's time you clearly define these things, if you are going to be the self-proclaimed expert.
You really don't like Dan, eh Michael?

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
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Old 01-23-2011, 06:29 AM   #223
Lorel Latorilla
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
Right - perhaps it's different from bodyskill, but it also sounds different enough from a tactic/technique (I don't know, giving it benefit of the doubt in hopes someone can 'splain it better) that it's more foundational work, too? Asking . .
Well, if we're talking bujutsu, everything we do is a tactic, even re-wiring our bodies--it's a tactical decision I think .

Awareness of intents is absolutely crucial in bujutsu (which is different from sport fighting). For instance, if you were to go to the Philippines, your awareness has to be sharp; if you were to come in with that "Oh I know some jin skills' or 'I got bodyskills' attitude there and not stay humble and on the watch and not hide your 'intent' or 'ki-ai', you'd find yourself on the nasty end of a sucker shank.

Just a thought.

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
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Old 01-23-2011, 06:32 AM   #224
Lorel Latorilla
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
projecting Ki into cones of awareness-say with long weapons
Never heard of this one . Care to expand, Dan ?

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Old 01-23-2011, 06:59 AM   #225
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Yeah. If you're relating it to isometrics/isotonics, you're definitely on the external level. Saying it in any other way would just be to politely waste your time.

George Ledyard put it kindly. The "other context" you mention is called "external" martial arts.

And you're sort of trapped on an ego level of insisting that you "do that, too," on these threads. Everyone keeps telling you you need to get hands on some of the leading practitioners and that's really the only good advice you can get, though some of us have gone into extensive detail about the specifics. I got a lot of good out of being told down on these matters, but that was because I really started studying what was really being said and I seriously contemplated those things, leading to a series of very interesting insights--first on fascia/connective tissue and, more recently on ki (and the ki recognition came directly from deep consideration of the fascia/connective tissue)--but these insights were also fueled by looking at videos of Ark and Rob and trying the exercises they showed, then meeting Ark and, a year later, Dan.

It's not simple or easy and it is very definitely hidden in plain sight. You can have two men, side by side, doing exactly the same forms, but one can be using internal principles and, though he will look the same as the other guy (to most observers), he will be far more powerful.

In short, until you've met some of these serious teachers, you should just forget any notion that you're close to what they do and spend a lot more time thinking about what some people are so kindly trying to explain to you about the internal method.

Gambatte.

David
Whatever..... sensei
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