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Old 12-10-2005, 09:11 AM   #176
Mike Sigman
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Re: Books on Ki by Carol Shifflet

Just as an aside, these conversations about "Ki" often go astray because there is a tendency to focus on one particular aspect of "Ki" and to then define it through metphors and analogy. The basic mistake, in my opinion, is to miss the point that "Ki" is actually composed of several phenomena that *can* be intertwined. Rob's lines of power are correct, but so is the balloon idea (to some extent... I'd say it needs to be corrected before someone trots off in that direction). The various phenomena that make up the body's "ki" can be defined (and you'd think that instructors in "Ai Ki Do" could do that to some extent!!), but there should be an understanding that "Ki" is actually an amalgam of several factors that would be considered separate by Western physiologist.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 12-10-2005, 08:46 PM   #177
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Re: Books on Ki by Carol Shifflet

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
I think ryote tori tenchi-nage may provide a more familiar context to explore this "feeling" of expanding upwards and downwards at the same time.
Thanks. I just find techi is a little hard to get the right feeling. I just cheat by doing chi first then ten in the dojo. How do you breath when doing solo tenchinage? Thanks again.

Side note:

1. Falun gong has similar movement.

2. Ten - sky/heaven, Chi - ground/earth

They sound like very similar to Chinese pronouncation to me. Some Japanese words have the same kanji with Chinese word but different pronouncation. Tenchi has the same kanji and similar pronouncation.
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Old 12-11-2005, 12:55 AM   #178
eyrie
 
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Re: Books on Ki by Carol Shifflet

Like Rob said, expand upwards and downwards at the same time. Before uke takes hold, you should already be breathing in and expanding the energy from your hara out to the fingers. As soon as uke takes hold, draw the energy up from the ground thru the rear foot as you step the lead foot out at a 45 degree angle, as you simultaneously spilt the energy down and up and spiral the hands. Start to breathe out, and unwind the body from the knees to mid torso, thru the rear foot - like a spring, all the while maintaining the hard-soft tension in your hands and release the energy thru your hands.

Breathing is the same if doing solo. IIRC, there is a similar exercise in the BaDuanJin, one hand holding up the sky and the other pressing the earth.

Ignatius
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Old 12-11-2005, 07:58 AM   #179
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Re: Books on Ki by Carol Shifflet

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
Like Rob said, expand upwards and downwards at the same time. Before uke takes hold, you should already be breathing in and expanding the energy from your hara out to the fingers. As soon as uke takes hold, draw the energy up from the ground thru the rear foot as you step the lead foot out at a 45 degree angle, as you simultaneously spilt the energy down and up and spiral the hands. Start to breathe out, and unwind the body from the knees to mid torso, thru the rear foot - like a spring, all the while maintaining the hard-soft tension in your hands and release the energy thru your hands.

Breathing is the same if doing solo. IIRC, there is a similar exercise in the BaDuanJin, one hand holding up the sky and the other pressing the earth.
Hi Ignatius:

Although it's correct to work on breathing, I often think it needs to be pointed out that you should be able to do a technique holding your breath or with 'incorrect' breathing. The point being that many breathing exercises are sort of a "workout" to develop a certain kind of strength (kokyu strength) and just like a biceps workout, the point is not to ingrain the rhythm of the workout but to build up the 'muscle'.

In respect to the BaDuanJin, the "Eight Pieces of Silk", the contradiction of holding up the sky and pressing down the earth is the same as in the "standing in the hole" exercise I mentioned to you. Everything is the same thing.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 12-11-2005, 03:12 PM   #180
eyrie
 
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Re: Books on Ki by Carol Shifflet

That's interesting. I've noticed pretty much the same thing on occasion, but wasn't sure if that was an anomaly or what - since most MA teach exhale at the point of "kime".

When you say build up the "muscle", it's the energy path created thru the skeletal structure, tendons and fascia isn't it?

Ignatius
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Old 12-11-2005, 08:07 PM   #181
Upyu
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Re: Books on Ki by Carol Shifflet

For anyone interested, I thought I'd post video of some exercises that directly develop Ten-Chi-Jin, (sans breathwork, since its the first stage of training), as well as an exercise that develops this while moving etc. While it looks linear, it gradually morphs into a 6 directional/spherical feeling. Any comments?

PS Also sendfile was the only thing I could think of to post something this big that also had decent bandwith, if anyone has any other suggestions I'm all ears.

http://s28.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=1...M2ESGB7B6AUTRF
Ten Chi Jin

http://s25.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=3...Y0X22T3APM2FLM
Shintaijiku - Low version

And I thought I'd share a basic result of this (through kicks, and not wristlocks this time. I'm sure everyone's seen enough of those ^^; ). For those that watch this, just a reminder that this is the most basic example of holding the body together (simply keeping the upper and middle tandens together, without other internal factors involved, and its done so it's easy to understand what's going on. (IE he can and does do it softer, and with more penetration...but doesn't for my sake ...which is a good thing, cuz even at that level it hurts like a b#"$. I think it's pretty self explanatory but if anyone has questions, doubts, flames, etc, fire away

--> Result (Difference in bodymechanics within the context of kicks)
http://www.filegone.com/xwzg
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Old 12-11-2005, 10:01 PM   #182
eyrie
 
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Re: Books on Ki by Carol Shifflet

That's an awesome trick, backstroking up the wall...

The filegone kicking video doesn't work.

Ignatius
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Old 12-11-2005, 10:36 PM   #183
Upyu
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Re: Books on Ki by Carol Shifflet

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
That's an awesome trick, backstroking up the wall...

The filegone kicking video doesn't work.
Awwww you're #$"ing me, I posted the unedited one where he defies gravity lol.

Reupped the kick video to yousendit for now
http://s11.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=1...42UD2VSUONJ2Z4

Rotated version of shintaijiku ^^;
http://s8.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=3T...L280DRE0JQG3G8
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Old 12-11-2005, 11:27 PM   #184
Upyu
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Re: Books on Ki by Carol Shifflet

Quote:
Robert John wrote:
Awwww you're #$"ing me, I posted the unedited one where he defies gravity lol.

Reupped the kick video to yousendit for now
http://s11.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=1...42UD2VSUONJ2Z4

Rotated version of shintaijiku ^^;
http://s8.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=3T...L280DRE0JQG3G8
Ok, bad form I know (post after post of the same stuff), but I reposted the vids to a more long lasting site:

Ten-Chi-Jin
http://www.badongo.com/vid.php?file=...1_MOV01612.MPG

Shintai Jiku (Non gravity defying version)
http://www.badongo.com/vid.php?file=...Jiku+-+Low.avi

Difference in Kicks
http://www.badongo.com/vid.php?file=...e+in+Kicks.mpg
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Old 12-11-2005, 11:39 PM   #185
eyrie
 
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Re: Books on Ki by Carol Shifflet

Is that you holding the shield? Can definitely hear the "thud" as opposed to the "slap".
The footwork looks like taiji walking.

Ignatius
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Old 12-12-2005, 12:23 AM   #186
Upyu
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Re: Books on Ki by Carol Shifflet

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
Is that you holding the shield? Can definitely hear the "thud" as opposed to the "slap".
The footwork looks like taiji walking.
Outed! Lol, yea that's me ^^;
Footwork actually comes from his Koryu background. Wouldn't be surprised if it looks like Tai Chi walking... it happens a lot. Footwork comes naturally. I can do that same kick he shows and floor people heavier than me. It's not pleasant to the reciever.

Additional tidbit, I can stand kicks thrown by heavier guys than me (and not fat ^^ w/ say a muay thai background (through a pad of course! I'm not claiming uberChIKIPrana status here lol), and not be knocked back. His strikes inherently destroy the person's root...and you can see my pelvic crease cave in, and that's not me just "giving" in. That's not the part that hurts tho, it literally goes through and rattles the spine and head which is the real !#"$&.
Same wih throws, pins, whatever. Gives a quick and very personable walkthrough of how the energy travels and affects you
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Old 12-12-2005, 02:12 AM   #187
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Re: Books on Ki by Carol Shifflet

Rob,

Could you repost on yousendit the earlier videos of Akuzawa you put up on filegone? The ones you posted in the pinky threads, and in the "Hidden In Plain Sight" thread on Aikido Journal? I get nothing when I click on the filegone links.

Josh Reyer

The lyf so short, the crafte so longe to lerne,
Th'assay so harde, so sharpe the conquerynge...
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Old 12-12-2005, 06:26 AM   #188
Mike Sigman
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Re: Books on Ki by Carol Shifflet

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
That's interesting. I've noticed pretty much the same thing on occasion, but wasn't sure if that was an anomaly or what - since most MA teach exhale at the point of "kime".

When you say build up the "muscle", it's the energy path created thru the skeletal structure, tendons and fascia isn't it?
Well, no. I'm talking about the Ki structure it self. You can learn jin/kokyu and some 'hard-style' methods of building up around it, but adding the actual ki essentially boosts your power because it supports and adds to the power so much. There is a saying that essentially "Ki itself is not very strong, but when added to correct use of muscle (jin/kokyu) your power increases greatly."

FWIW

Mike
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Old 12-13-2005, 12:57 AM   #189
eyrie
 
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Re: Books on Ki by Carol Shifflet

OK, I'm confused.... ki structure? Since ki is defined functionally by what it does, how does it have "structure"? Do you mean the relational "structure(s)" thru which ki originates, manifests, circulates, etc., i.e. skin, channels, fascia, organs, bones?

Ignatius
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Old 12-13-2005, 07:10 AM   #190
Mike Sigman
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Re: Books on Ki by Carol Shifflet

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
OK, I'm confused.... ki structure? Since ki is defined functionally by what it does, how does it have "structure"? Do you mean the relational "structure(s)" thru which ki originates, manifests, circulates, etc., i.e. skin, channels, fascia, organs, bones?
Ah. Complicated question. Hmmmmmmm. When you are doing the 4 wrists exercises... you are training to bring the Ki out to the wrists, hands, forearms. It is not a warmup or stretch the wrists, per se, although a warmup and some stretching do take place. Try doing the self-applied nikyo in the wrist exercises, but first inhale and pull in slightly on the stomach area. Let the nikyo be applied not so much by you twisting with the upper arm but by simply letting the body sink while you feel for the 'stretched' areas from the arm to the back (lower lumbar area). Try to manipulate things so that you feel the actual twist you are applying to the upper arm wind up somewhere in the lower back. Ta da.... you are working on developing the ki out to your wrists (in this example... and remember I said Ki can be several different things, so don't think you've got the whole answer).

Although you've roughly approached the functional ki in this exercise because you are stretching the myofascial sheets, you're using 'air pressure', etc., there is also the 'magnetic feeling' thing that is associated with 'ki' (it's not very functional, but it's kewl and it gives Reiki practitioners something to make a living with). These are all part of the holistic whole that makes up Ki and gives it the idea of "flow". The actual 'flow' and movement of strange feelings associated with developed ki (the real feelings, not the one the New Age people immediately feel on their first encounter) comes along pretty quick after you begin developing the functional ki. I actually told you enough to extrapolate and figure out the principles, to a reasonable degree, of beginning to develop you actual ki. You owe me a pint, mate. ;^)

Mike
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Old 12-13-2005, 07:30 AM   #191
eyrie
 
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Re: Books on Ki by Carol Shifflet

Thanks Mike, but you'll have to get your butt down here to sample some of my finest homebrew....
If I said I'm past this stage, and can send ki to my grabbed wrist and extend it into uke's center (to remove their root) do you owe me a pint?

Last edited by eyrie : 12-13-2005 at 07:34 AM.

Ignatius
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Old 12-13-2005, 08:09 AM   #192
Mike Sigman
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Re: Books on Ki by Carol Shifflet

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
Thanks Mike, but you'll have to get your butt down here to sample some of my finest homebrew....
If I said I'm past this stage, and can send ki to my grabbed wrist and extend it into uke's center (to remove their root) do you owe me a pint?
Only if you do it to me so I can feel what you're doing. I'll bet you another pint that you uproot yourself..... I enjoy a good ki-battle. To an outside observer, it appears that nothing is happening.

Mike
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Old 12-13-2005, 09:55 AM   #193
David Yap
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Re: Books on Ki by Carol Shifflet

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Only if you do it to me so I can feel what you're doing. I'll bet you another pint that you uproot yourself..... I enjoy a good ki-battle. To an outside observer, it appears that nothing is happening.
Hi Mike,

Are referring to tai-chi or yichuan "push hands"?

Cheers

David Y
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Old 12-13-2005, 10:35 AM   #194
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Re: Books on Ki by Carol Shifflet

Quote:
David Yap wrote:
Hi Mike,

Are referring to tai-chi or yichuan "push hands"?
Hi David:

Actually, I was referring to Ignatius's idea of someone grabbing his wrist and him uprooting them through their center. Regardless of Aikido, Taiji, Yiquan, etc., the idea is applicable in all of them. What I was saying that if someone attempts to send 'ki' (in this case, he's referring to the force-vector controls and calling them 'ki'.... although that's an accepted usage of the term 'ki', I don't like to use it because it is part of all the things that mislead beginners about what 'ki' is) in a way that uproots me, I can (usually, depending on the other person's skill level) counter in a subtle way, without moving, that will make them uproot themselves.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 12-13-2005, 04:50 PM   #195
eyrie
 
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Re: Books on Ki by Carol Shifflet

I have no doubt that you could. My sensei and any of my sempai could. So I guess I'll be owing you 2 pints then....

* goes back to hugging trees and lifting rocks out of holes *

Ignatius
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Old 12-14-2005, 04:53 AM   #196
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Re: Books on Ki by Carol Shifflet

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
.., I can (usually, depending on the other person's skill level) counter in a subtle way, without moving, that will make them uproot themselves.
Hi Mike,

I believe you could. Have experienced it first hand from a few shihan, namely Tada sensei, Tamura sensei and Nakao sensei and a couple weeks ago from Fukakusa sensei. Good experience indeed and still figuring them out. Some help from you, perhaps.

Regards

David Y
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Old 12-14-2005, 05:32 AM   #197
Mike Sigman
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Re: Books on Ki by Carol Shifflet

Quote:
David Yap wrote:
I believe you could. Have experienced it first hand from a few shihan, namely Tada sensei, Tamura sensei and Nakao sensei and a couple weeks ago from Fukakusa sensei. Good experience indeed and still figuring them out. Some help from you, perhaps.
HI David:

The problem is that we may be talking about 2 different things, in this case. My description of "subtle" is, if my experience is any indicator, probably about something that is different from what you're thinking of. I'm talking about something very subtle, not just a subtle use of muscle-derived forces or force vectors. And the real problem that I've finally figured out is that without some sort or real "ki" development (the kind OSensei did with his Buddhist-derived breathing exercises), I don't think you can get there. It's sort of like trying to do some subtle gymnastics tricks but never really understanding how to do them until the body's strengths have reached a suitable level (maybe not a clear analogy, but I'm just saying that until there is a certain level of Ki, some subtleties simply remain a mystery).

There's a common description in Chinese martial arts which I've also encountered occasionally in Japanese martial arts about the 'levels' of power. Generally, the idea is that if you put technique aside as a separate subject, power itself can be looked at as (1.) Obvious (2.) Hidden, and (3.) Mysterious. Some of what I described seeing Shioda, Sunadomari, et al do falls into the "mysterious" range, but in actuality it shows a level of power usage that involves the manipulation of jin/kokyu at levels that are not there until the body has been developed up to a certain level.

If I had to reiterate some pertinent comments I've made in the past, I think the problem with Aikido has to do with not enough information having reached the current yudanshakai and shihan levels and then having let the important body-development aspects of Aiki-Taiso, Suburi, etc., get by unnoticed. What's interesting about the on-scene arrival of someone like Rob John is that he brings to the table some indications of a teacher (Akuzawa) who is teaching directly toward body power (although in some ways it is more of a Southern Shaolin approach than I think O-Sensei used, IMO). I think all of these approaches and the focuses on Ki and Kokyu development need to become the top priority of the current younger generation of Aikido (not to mention the other martial arts which have been going on looks, style, techniques, etc., rather than the core of the arts.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 12-14-2005, 08:40 AM   #198
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Re: Books on Ki by Carol Shifflet

Quote:
Robert John wrote:

Footwork actually comes from his Koryu background. Wouldn't be surprised if it looks like Tai Chi walking...
Are you sure?

From your club web site, he seems to be a tai chi and xing yi master. I believe Mike's observation is correct about his walking style.

Could you ask him to be sure? Thanks.
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Old 12-14-2005, 08:55 AM   #199
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Question Re: Books on Ki by Carol Shifflet

Quote:
Roosvelt Freeman wrote:
Are you sure?

From your club web site, he seems to be a tai chi and xing yi master. I believe Mike's observation is correct about his walking style.

Could you ask him to be sure? Thanks.
It seems that he also teaches standing poster. Isn't that a Kanji "ZHAN ZHUANG' in your club web site?

I think you mentioned something that he accquired his internal power from some Japanese arts. Are you sure you've got the story straight? Isn't that weired for a guy who practice "zhan zhuang", tai chi and xing yin to claim that he got his Ki from other source?

I'm confused.
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Old 12-14-2005, 10:43 AM   #200
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Re: Books on Ki by Carol Shifflet

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Hi David:

Actually, I was referring to Ignatius's idea of someone grabbing his wrist and him uprooting them through their center. Regardless of Aikido, Taiji, Yiquan, etc., the idea is applicable in all of them. What I was saying that if someone attempts to send 'ki' (in this case, he's referring to the force-vector controls and calling them 'ki'.... although that's an accepted usage of the term 'ki', I don't like to use it because it is part of all the things that mislead beginners about what 'ki' is) in a way that uproots me, I can (usually, depending on the other person's skill level) counter in a subtle way, without moving, that will make them uproot themselves.

FWIW
Mike

Interesting. could you uproot them if they were not "attempting to send 'ki'" ? but simply being there with correct alignment and proper expansive state of relaxation ? My goal is not to attempt anything but just be there, connect the moment of contact by just being there already without moving so the person can't feel anything to counter. That sounds like what you mean by "if I could feel what you are doing"

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