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Old 08-06-2005, 11:43 PM   #176
DustinAcuff
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

If you are referring to me...

I don't take much of anything on blind faith. Sufice to say that I believed enough in the abilities of the people I train under to train under them. I started TKD because I was untrained and looking for discipline. I was training BJJ by someone who was taught directly under Carlos and Royce and who held some rather amazing credentials. I trained MT under people in the same place because after being kicked lightly by them a few times I decided that they were better than I was. I am training under the person I am training under right now because I know that I cannot physically touch him, on the ground I have reliably been tapped out in less than 20 sec, and that his reputation consistently says the same in the local bars, the local MA places, and that people whom I know and respect and are highly trained all admit that he is the only person they have ever met that they fear.

I don't believe in blind faith. I also don't believe in training in something less effective unless there is a specific goal in mind. So far I am training in the most efficient and effective system I have found. I cannot do BJJ or Muai Thai on stairs, in my car, or when someone has already sunk a choke in on me from behind. I can do DR in those same situations pretty reliabily.
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Old 08-07-2005, 12:07 AM   #177
dyffcult
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Hrmmmm....

Uh, Dustin, I was supporting your position. If the attack is not there....which is pretty much the converse of ... not being there for the attack.

Very generally speaking, aikido is about blending. And if one is truely attacked, and steps out of the way of that attack...one has blended.

Does my post make more sense now???

Brenda
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Old 08-07-2005, 12:12 AM   #178
dyffcult
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Okay, there is a reason I always run my posts through my wordprocessor....

Try the following instead:

If there is no attach .... that is pretty much the converse of ... not being there for the attack.

Brenda wanders off to find another beer muttering about having to work on a Saturday and the day before her birthday...
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Old 08-07-2005, 12:14 AM   #179
dyffcult
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Oh drat....I give up...

:-)
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Old 08-07-2005, 07:46 AM   #180
rob_liberti
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Quote:
Dustin Acuff wrote:
If you are referring to me...
Dustin, I actually wasn't referring to your posts. -Rob
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Old 08-07-2005, 09:24 AM   #181
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Going back to the start of the thread.....on exagerrations (sort of)...

I truely believe if you are focused on....or if you are promised by an instructor that aikido will someday make you combat effective (again, that is an emotional term that is thrown around very loosely)...your are totally missing the point of studying aikido.

Empty hand arts, be it aikido, bjj, MMA, whatever..will not do this adequately. Yes, there are benefits...but anyone holding this out as a primary reason to study arts is exagerating the reason for studying the art.

There are many benefits for studying MA...but the least of which, IMHO, is for the skills that you will garner out of the art for physical protection or self defense.

The ultimate goal is to understand yourself and others, achieve a level of personal fitness, and generally become a well rounded and happy person. They also are an awesome way to develop the warrior spirit that is a necessary component for self preservation.

I'd be more focused on reducing cholesterol, body fat, or preventing heart disease...they simply are greater risk factors than being jumped in an alley by a 310 lb attacker!


The problem is, we get caught up in the emotion of a personal attack and focus on that aspect as being the "holy grail" of why we train. I know I did in the past!

You will probably notice on these boards a lack of participation by high ranking aikidoka...there is probably a reason for that!

Think long and hard about why we study martial arts...and really what they promise to offer us!
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Old 08-07-2005, 09:34 AM   #182
Lyle Bogin
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

I think it is fair to say that aikido training helps make it possible to take on larger opponents or multiple opponents.
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Old 08-07-2005, 12:02 PM   #183
Roy
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Lyle,

Yes! We have all come to that conclusion!
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Old 08-07-2005, 12:21 PM   #184
DustinAcuff
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Brenda, I was in no way referring to you. We agree and are saying the same thing.

Rob, sorry, my family has an intresting way of discussing things, I am used to having to defend every point I make.

Kevin, good post and good points. I think the purpose of learning any form of self-defence is to condition an effective primary response to a violent situation. Martial Arts in general just depend on what you are looking for, but I do draw a line in the sand between MAs and self-defence.
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Old 08-07-2005, 02:03 PM   #185
Adam Alexander
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote:
In a couple of posts you seem to allude to a beleif you have that you have demonstrated a high level of Aikido knowledge and ability by something you've written an that this justifies your stance. Is that interpretation correct?
Because if it is, I beleive you are mistaken. It would be interesting to see if anyone else that's read this thread thinks Jean has demonstrated he has a deeper knowledge of Aikido than the "cross trainers". I'm really not trying to slam you here, it's just that I get the impression you think you've demonstrated something you haven't.
Hey Michael,

I didn't take it as anything more than a question...and opinion.

I don't think I'm at a high level (I'm chuckling at the thought), however, the exchange over the couple posts have demonstrated sufficiently for me that you guys aren't at the same stage.

For me, your perspective on what an Aikido technique is--1)your use of "technique" where the conversation, I believe, called for the designation of "kata" or "form" 2) your perspective on performance of a technique 3) the questioning on the significance of the "heel"--leads me to believe that, although I may not know a great deal, I don't think you guys are knowledgeable enough about Aikido to give recommendations.

I mean no offense, but although you guys have trained for a long time, if your understanding exceeds what I believe it does, I do not believe it to be expressed in your posts.

As far as "others," I think the real question is, of those that we know understand, what do they think...not those who have been in this conversation.
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Old 08-07-2005, 02:28 PM   #186
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

My aikido serves me at the level that I am currently working at. there is always more to learn. To me, "high level" constitutes an understanding deeper than any amount of technical knowledge we could impart on the web.

There is probably a reason we don't see higher level people responding to these post. Frankly they probably find it boring and sophmoric.

While I don't profess to have any great knowledge of aikido...I certainly don't feel I have a narrow view of the my own personal expectations about what I currently know and what I hope to know in the future. I think that is a dividing factor between many of us and our conversations Jean.

Hence, the term exaggeration. Should be exaggeration of expectations!
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Old 08-07-2005, 02:28 PM   #187
aikigirl10
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Jean,
I know you hate to believe it , but you CAN be a crosstrainer and have a great insight on how aikido works/is done/should be done, etc. Why dont you clue me in on your level of experience or the amount of time you've doing aikido so i can better understand why you might think you have a better understanding of aikido than everyone else?
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Old 08-07-2005, 03:32 PM   #188
Aristeia
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Jean's been training for 3-4 years.
But apparently he's been training properly whereas the rest of us have been groping in the dark. This is evidenced by his use of the word "heel" in a number of posts.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 08-07-2005, 04:41 PM   #189
aikigirl10
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

thanks michael
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Old 08-07-2005, 06:31 PM   #190
Roy
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Michael, Paige,

Please don't encourage the young lad! If he can take blows on the street the way he can take them in this forum, then perhaps he is a budding "Master of Aikido"
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Old 08-07-2005, 10:17 PM   #191
Keith R Lee
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

http://www.straightblastgym.com/newbook.htm

Very relevant to this thread I think.

Keith Lee
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Old 08-08-2005, 05:28 AM   #192
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Very relevant...unfortunately...some people just won't get it. (Gotta go press my hakama now! )
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Old 08-08-2005, 08:56 AM   #193
rob_liberti
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Great article, I almost wish this were a new thread.

"Why do others persist so adamantly in training methods, progressions, and ritual, that serve no purpose, and are simply ‘dead patterns'"

It's a thin line between "dead patterns" that allow for little of no progress what-so-ever and "so alive" that progress in sophistication of movement gets stifled just beyond the mundane. Given the two extremes, I would chose very alive, but I think there is a middle ground here, where the training can be alive without being so constantly pressure tested that the person has time and space to process and develop better sophistication in their movement.

For the most part, I am against 'dead patterns'. The patterns are needed, but the 'dead' part needs to be discarded. My teacher uses what looks like the typical training methods, progressions, and ritual. Of course his methods look like the ‘dead patterns' that other "aikido" teachers are using. (I've been there, done that, got the tee-shirt, etc.). However, I see/feel what he can do without muscling things and without relying on evasion to accomplish non-muscled technique (principle expression) and I'm amazed. He says his teaching methodology is the best way he can come up to show his students how to get like that too so I (and I assume his other students) believe him. He actually tried very hard to avoid dead patterns to the point of criticism. When he teaches, he switches techniques rapidly and is often accused of "too many techniques and not enough time to work on them". Are these people just comfortable in relatively 'dead patterns'? I asked my teacher about this, and he explained that when he sees no one (or almost no one) is getting it he moves quickly on to another technique to try to approach the point in a different way before the people end up practicing wrong habits any longer (and ingraining them deeper).

Given my experience, if we trained much more alive than that, we (assuming the level of martial ability we typically see in aikido students) would need to over-use our muscles (our normal-strength as Mike Sigman likes to say). Maybe I'm wrong here, but I have not met anyone who has gotten a sophistication of movement like my teacher using more pressure testing than his class provides some people in different arts I know of have similar sophistication in their movement, but I'd say the pressure testing provided in their class is quite similar to what my teacher provides from what I can see.

Rob
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Old 08-08-2005, 11:26 AM   #194
Adam Alexander
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Kevin Leavitt, did you mean something by that? Because if you did, I noticed that the article said..."Understanding what motivates YOU is the important issue. The first thing you must do is avoid the temptation to use this information as a way to judge others. To the degree that you say "that guy is all image based" to another persona, is the degree to which you need that persona to view you as something better."


Anyway, I thought that was a pretty good article. However, the author, I think, slid some ideas/opinions in that didn't really seem to belong. Nonetheless, cool article.

What's hilarious is that I agree with him. I was in the shower today after training and thinking about these two threads. As already stated, I think my training is somewhere else (I hope I don't need to rephrase that for some smart-a**es). And I realized, what's the difference of what a couple of people think? Initially, I believe I entered the thread for the best reasons, but it turned into ego.

Maybe my way is best for me, maybe it's not best for you all.

I was doing my cuts today--same one, over and over--and I realized, maybe practicing techniques have the effect on ourselves like an Aikido technique has on uke. My goal is to control uke. However, just like an Aikido technique, my goal moved and I found out where, as uke, I am.

Good stuff.

Good luck with your training.
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Old 08-08-2005, 11:27 AM   #195
Roy
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Rob,

Good points here! I also can remember a particular Aikido club that would "micro manage," everything. They would stop you right in the middle of the technique and adjust your big toe slightly to on side or the other. I often felt this was discipline, or fine tuning, but really all it did was make me hesitant and confused.
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Old 08-08-2005, 12:02 PM   #196
Keith R Lee
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

It probably is worth its own thread honestly. Matt Thornton has written some really great stuff about training. Specifically his opinions on "live" training, one that I whole-heartedly agree with. Without "live" training, training becomes only conjecture. It's very easy to accept the norm if one has never been to another dojo, let alone another style of MA.

Kevin I think you said it best earlier:

Quote:
The hard part is dealing with the ego of "letting go" of what makes us comfortable. It is easy to surround yourself in a dojo with instructors you are used to, doka you are used to, and doing the same routines you are used to....
I think ego plays a big part in it.

Keith Lee
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Old 08-08-2005, 12:34 PM   #197
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

thanks keith.

Good points Jean. I agree things got a little screwy in that article, but overall it is good.

I had the discussion about live and dead forms years ago with several of my dojo mates in karate. I think, at least in my karate practice, much of the forms/kata we practiced were dead as a door nail.

I have not found that to be so with aikido. The so called kata that we practice is pretty decent if you ask me. Most of it centers on teaching correct fundamental principles. so, therefore, I do not find it dead. Where I think things go astray sometimes is when we focus on bunkai..or hidden techniques, or looking for meaning/effectiveness in kata. It is usually hidden because the reason for doing it was lost!

Jean got me to thinking. Cutting sword cuts over and over is good training if done properly. It develops muscles and habits or posture that are necessary for performing empty hand in correct alignment.

I think what is important in all of this is to consider WHY YOU are training (as Jean points out). If you are practicing for the wrong reasons, your training is dead and a waste of time.
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Old 08-08-2005, 12:55 PM   #198
Adam Alexander
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Yeah, if I understand what he meant by "dead," I've never experienced that in Aikido (except with beginners...and that's for good reason). Generally, it's a misunderstanding of individuals who do not train in the art,"oh, you guys train with "cooperative" ukes."

My experience is that with the solo-kata (bokken strikes in the previously stated example) lead you to "secret techniques." Just my experience.

In that sense, LOL, I bother my girlfriend daily by saying,"I'm unlocking the secrets of Aikido with every training session." I think it's true. Although you might even be lucky enough to have someone tell you how to do something literally, it really doesn't mean anything until you "unlock" it for yourself.

I guess the point was: What makes it a secret technique isn't that someone is withholding it, it's that you don't see it.
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Old 08-08-2005, 01:20 PM   #199
Keith R Lee
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

"Live" training is generally considered to be two people enganging in a fully resistant manner. Meaning a grappling match, boxing, kickboxing, MMA etc.

Only in an environment in which both parties are competing and attempting to win over the other person can techniques and theories be proven. Techniques that are never "put to the question" so to speak remain hypothetical only because they have been put to use in a setting where they are tested.

It's the difference between empirical knowledge and deductive knowledge. I think many of us have seen or been a part of Aikido dojos that are based purely on deductive knowledge.

Keith Lee
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Old 08-08-2005, 01:26 PM   #200
Adam Alexander
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Re: ?? Exaggeration in Aikido ??

Well, if that's the case, I don't think the person who supports that ideology has a real clear grasp.

But, that's just me.
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