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Old 10-18-2009, 06:21 PM   #101
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Blending with the attack.

Quote:
Thomas Campbell wrote: View Post
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
The body was meant to be used in opposing spirals.
Thanks for that.
Hmmm. Opposing spirals. Really? Who'd a thunk it?

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 10-18-2009, 07:16 PM   #102
thisisnotreal
 
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Re: Blending with the attack.

well played Erick.
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Old 10-18-2009, 07:16 PM   #103
DH
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Re: Blending with the attack.

Well played?
Hmmm........

a. It doesn't work like that
b. you never once mentioned it till AFTER I brought up the idea of opposing spirals
c. you don't know what you are talking about
d. it doesn't help one soul get any better in anything related to aikido
You yourself provided evidence of what all that knowledge does for you...It made you an average aikidoka like millions of others.

I now how to dramtically improve that.
And math and physics will not help.
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 10-18-2009 at 07:24 PM.
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Old 10-18-2009, 08:28 PM   #104
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Re: Blending with the attack.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Well played?
Hmmm........

a. It doesn't work like that
b. you never once mentioned it till AFTER I brought up the idea of opposing spirals
c. you don't know what you are talking about
d. it doesn't help one soul get any better in anything related to aikido
You yourself provided evidence of what all that knowledge does for you...It made you an average aikidoka like millions of others.

I now how to dramtically improve that.
And math and physics will not help.
Cheers
Dan
Then is there any way you can tell me how my average aikido azz can inprove this afterall you and eric have argued this out for three pages lets end it already.JEEZ
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Old 10-18-2009, 08:30 PM   #105
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Re: Blending with the attack.

Quote:
Tim Evans wrote: View Post
Any thoughts on practicing this important part of aikido.
It is a vital part of Aikido. You don't want to be part of two or more colliding forces. You want to get out of the way, and position yourself to the advantage/dominate position in relation to the opponent who is at a disadvantage/subordinate position in relation to you. The result is controlling your opponent with your movement.

Now, there are videos of O'Sensei doings demos where he stands in one place as his student charges him, and he lifts his arm up and the student lands on his back. We all know these videos. Yet in his younger day videos his moves around allot. He uses his actively blending using his whole body.

If you intently collide with your opponent, force impacting force the the greater force and stuff wins out. I don't know of any martial art other then maybe Sumo that focuses directly on colliding. When a weapon is involved colliding isn't a good idea.

It is a universal principle to get out of the way. It is an important Aikido principle on how that is done, and the purpose of it. Blending of course isn't just getting out of the way involves other things like irimi, and tenkan, so it is not just merely getting out of the way. That is what I think in O'Sensei's later films show. That there are skill levels of blending. That blending is a very important skill in Aikido that doesn't be just getting out of the way. Blending -I feel- identifies Aikido as Aikido from say jujitsu. Blending is very important to the art of Aikido. And it takes practice.

Those are my thoughts.
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Old 10-18-2009, 08:38 PM   #106
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Blending with the attack.

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
I understand George....I stand by my "experiance" of Aikido... I have been very comfortable with it for many many years thanks to Shoji Nishio's expression of what he thought Aikido should be... to whit "Sincere Heart through Austere Practice."

If folks should go into a "feeding frenzy" over my expression of Aikido It would not bother me one bit...I meant it to be personal... not provocative.

To each his own. All you did was remind me of what I consider "the obvious" and I thank you.

Back to the thread.

William Hazen
Hi William,
I do not think that the Aikido you and I received from our teachers was far off. When I first started seeing videos of other teachers than my own, it was Nishio Sensei who most seemed to view Aikido as Saotome Sensei did. Not exactly the outer form but more the essence. That was born out later when I had the chance to read his book in English. There wasn't anything in there I hadn't heard from my teacher.
- George

George S. Ledyard
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Old 10-18-2009, 08:50 PM   #107
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Re: Blending with the attack.

Quote:
Tim Evans wrote: View Post
Then is there any way you can tell me how my average aikido azz can inprove this afterall you and eric have argued this out for three pages lets end it already.JEEZ
Tim
To be clear
There is no argument, nor any discussion going on about this stuff with Eric.
1. I am talking about this stuff.
2. Eric is not now, nor has he ever talked about this stuff.
And that's about it.

I would be happy to show you, Tim and Eric as well. Telling you is meaningless though.
I think I did show some things once in your neck of the woods, maybe even in your dojo albiet at a koryu event.
Cheers
Dan
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Old 10-18-2009, 08:58 PM   #108
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Re: Blending with the attack.

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
You don't want to be part of two or more colliding forces. You want to get out of the way, and position yourself to the advantage/dominate position in relation to the opponent who is at a disadvantage/subordinate position in relation to you. The result is controlling your opponent with your movement.

Now, there are videos of O'Sensei doings demos where he stands in one place as his student charges him, and he lifts his arm up and the student lands on his back.
It took me a very long time to get over the idea that I could either, "get out of the way" or "collide". What OSensei (or Shioda) was demonstrating was that it is entirely possible to stay on line, maintain ones integrity and NOT collide.

Chris Moses
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Old 10-18-2009, 09:12 PM   #109
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Re: Blending with the attack.

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
It took me a very long time to get over the idea that I could either, "get out of the way" or "collide". What OSensei (or Shioda) was demonstrating was that it is entirely possible to stay on line, maintain ones integrity and NOT collide.

Fundemental defining principle of non resistence that looks just like collision to the average bear when it is nothng of the sort. And we can explore tankan / while entering / while not moving off-line at all / while taking their space and controling their reactions. And it can be done in different ways but all based on a fundemental basic understanding of what aiki really means in practice.

Cheers
Dan
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Old 10-18-2009, 09:55 PM   #110
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Re: Blending with the attack.

Oh, I forgot to add that blending, referring to O'Sensei's design, is a set of actions and principles put together in way that says Aikido.

Blending in part, put you in a position advantageous to you to control the opponent and he is to be at a disadvantage where he can't control or attack you successfully. Like all things it takes practice and trial and error. It as been my experience each opponent having taller or shorter legs meaning a different stepping distance, a different gait, rhythm, and speed when they come at you. No everyone comes at you the same. Especially if they read you. They my hesitate, stop, stutter step or quick step, move off their line, take bigger or smaller steps- change their gate. All of which to throw you off. You have to adjust to them instantly. If not your hosed.

There is allot to blending that can't be taught, just like allot of other things, you got to practice to get it, and practice to get good at it. Practice makes perfect.

And I forgot change in energy of the on coming attack isn't allways the same, it isn't a constant. Maybe that is the issue with those struggling with blending. Is their practice attacks are a constant. A constant attack is fatal because it has no variables to expand upon, to discover other opportunities and stuff.

Sometimes it's the little things we don't notice or take for granted that make a world of difference.

Last edited by Buck : 10-18-2009 at 10:01 PM.
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Old 10-18-2009, 11:43 PM   #111
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Blending with the attack.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
a. It doesn't work like that
b. you never once mentioned it till AFTER I brought up the idea of opposing spirals
Saotome has been talking and illustrating interacting spirals as the shape of aikido since I started this art -- almost twenty-five years ago. Saotome could be seen sitting in the corner at a seminar dinner just watching his own arm twisting out and back again. I don't claim this line of thought -- no one can. No one owns it.

I just worked on pointing to correct mechanical models -- to give correct mechanical images on which to better found physical intuitions -- not to drag a Cray with an FEM module onto the mat. The fact that these models all relate according to juuji and other key concepts of O Sensei's descriptions is simply confirmation. The models were always there, they just had not been seen to apply in this setting, and thus were overlooked.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 10-19-2009, 11:47 AM   #112
DH
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Re: Blending with the attack.

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Saotome has been talking and illustrating interacting spirals as the shape of aikido since I started this art -- almost twenty-five years ago. Saotome could be seen sitting in the corner at a seminar dinner just watching his own arm twisting out and back again. I don't claim this line of thought -- no one can. No one owns it.
Believe it or not- I am not against *you* I hope you can see that, I'm just against this dumb idea of modeling things you cannot do yourself and expecting results other than what you have gotten for yourself...average skills.

Moving onward
Why are you bringing up personal witness as testiment, when you summarily reject it every other time we use it as counters to your positions?
You do like to make up the rules of the argument as you go along don't you, Eric?
Well since you are now back to personal testiment as evidence;
You state he uses the spirals from your model and you understand it?
1. Yet no one from anywhere holds your skills in any high esteem.
2. Your seniors freely discuss the fact that Saotome says he has trouble teaching the inner things he is doing to them.
3. Are you saying you have gotten something that they don't?

If so, apparently your own model on spiral energy hasn't helped you out at all. Why, refer back to the fact that no one holds your skills in high esteem. So what makes you think anoyne should listen to anything you have to say or consider your models at all? It's illogocal. You have set yourself up as your best advertisement to ignore your methods and understanding.

I won't discuss what other teachers from the ASU have said about the way I express spiral energy. You just might want to consider that maybe I am doing something different after all, and you still don't understand it. You might want to hold back on your modeling theories till you get more information. Which brings me right back to where we started. You don't understand what we are talking about- even a little bit- and everything that you do know has produced what...average skills for Eric Mead. No harm no foul there. But as you can see and read from other ASU teachers-we are not talking about average skills, Eric. This is something better.
But good luck with the modeling ideas for a teaching tool.

Write back when you have an example of someone with unsusual skills who uses them as a source, Otherwise I think wer'e done.

Quote:
I just worked on pointing to correct mechanical models
Unfortunately you still haven't produced even a single one-correctly.

I wonder if it wouldn't be smarter to go and find out what real people with unusual skills are actually doing before you talk about it. You have some good examples to follow in what is now *many* ASU teachers who just go and test and find out!! How easy is that?

If you ever do decide to train just let me know. Come to Atlanta and I will dote on you, get you to laugh, give you individual attention and help you to actually get a peak into what I am doing. At least then if you want to try to model it (I still think its waste of time for a learning tool though) you will have more accurate information to go all *mad professor* with.

Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 10-19-2009 at 11:57 AM.
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Old 10-19-2009, 11:51 AM   #113
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Re: Blending with the attack.

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
It took me a very long time to get over the idea that I could either, "get out of the way" or "collide". What OSensei (or Shioda) was demonstrating was that it is entirely possible to stay on line, maintain ones integrity and NOT collide.
Christian, How on earth can you do that?!
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Old 10-19-2009, 11:55 AM   #114
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Blending with the attack.

Quote:
Josh Phillipson wrote: View Post
Christian, How on earth can you do that?!
By "joining"

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Old 10-19-2009, 12:48 PM   #115
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Blending with the attack.

I suggest the video clip below, and similar ones of Ueshiba (both post war and pre war) directly contradict what you have said here. I'll also suggest that you experience first hand what is being spoken of and demonstrated here as soon as possible. The longer you delay, the more "oops factor" once you do experience it. And the more posts archived that display the "oops factor".

http://www.56.com/u97/v_NDE1Njk3OTA.html

Best,
Ron

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
It is a vital part of Aikido. You don't want to be part of two or more colliding forces. You want to get out of the way, and position yourself to the advantage/dominate position in relation to the opponent who is at a disadvantage/subordinate position in relation to you. The result is controlling your opponent with your movement.

Now, there are videos of O'Sensei doings demos where he stands in one place as his student charges him, and he lifts his arm up and the student lands on his back. We all know these videos. Yet in his younger day videos his moves around allot. He uses his actively blending using his whole body.

If you intently collide with your opponent, force impacting force the the greater force and stuff wins out. I don't know of any martial art other then maybe Sumo that focuses directly on colliding. When a weapon is involved colliding isn't a good idea.

It is a universal principle to get out of the way. It is an important Aikido principle on how that is done, and the purpose of it. Blending of course isn't just getting out of the way involves other things like irimi, and tenkan, so it is not just merely getting out of the way. That is what I think in O'Sensei's later films show. That there are skill levels of blending. That blending is a very important skill in Aikido that doesn't be just getting out of the way. Blending -I feel- identifies Aikido as Aikido from say jujitsu. Blending is very important to the art of Aikido. And it takes practice.

Those are my thoughts.

Last edited by Ron Tisdale : 10-19-2009 at 12:50 PM.

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Old 10-19-2009, 12:54 PM   #116
phitruong
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Re: Blending with the attack.

Quote:
Josh Phillipson wrote: View Post
Christian, How on earth can you do that?!
this is the aiki part which the IT/IS folks talk about. took a few smack-downs for me to understand that. once you realize that you don't have to get out of the way, things start to get interesting. i can't help you with the aiki part, but i can help you with the smack-down part.
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Old 10-19-2009, 01:54 PM   #117
ChrisMoses
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Re: Blending with the attack.

Quote:
Josh Phillipson wrote: View Post
Christian, How on earth can you do that?!
Well, that's the real question now isn't it?

Unfortunately, I'm only beginning to feel I can do this regularly. I don't think there's any way to explain it online, one reason I just haven't been posting much lately. The real reason I can't explain "how" is because it's (to my limited understanding) a very complex combination of internal structure/skill and external strategy/technique. I remember Ark telling me when I first met him that he doesn't focus on techniques with his students for a long time because before they have developed "martial bodies" there's no point. When I started with Neil, he would tell me what I needed to be doing, I understood what I needed to do, but I could not make my body do those things. It was not capable of the kind of movements/internal supports that were necessary to accomplish the overt waza. Before I ever met Ark, Neil had realized this was holding us all back and started using some of the training methods that he had used to build a martial body. Then when I met Ark it pushed us all to another level (both in terms of the intensity/specificity of training and the level of development we were now aiming for in our training goal). So if someone hasn't been actively building a martial body, I can't get them there. They are still a frog in a shallow well.

In the video I posted last year you can see a bit of what I'm talking about. Ignore the first demonstration for now because it's too easy to think that's about going around the attack (it's not, the tenkan movement only happens after kuzushi has been established and should be looked at as tsukuri). Around the 1:30 mark I demonstrate a cam entry and talk about what it is and isn't (sound familiar?). The first one is OK and you should be able to see me control Jeremy without getting out of the way or a 'collision'. The second one wasn't very good and I call myself on it the video. The reason it didn't work, was that I DID get off the line very slightly and that failed to control the encounter. I was able to get it back, but only because we were going SLOWLY in order to feel where things worked and where they fell apart.

There are also some excellent clues in the Transparent Power (Sagawa) translation that recently came out. I'm still working through a lot of hints that came from that text.

Chris Moses
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Old 10-19-2009, 02:17 PM   #118
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Re: Blending with the attack.

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
There are also some excellent clues in the Transparent Power (Sagawa) translation that recently came out. I'm still working through a lot of hints that came from that text.
I can see it's time to drop by for tea again.
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Old 10-19-2009, 02:36 PM   #119
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Re: Blending with the attack.

Quote:
Thomas Campbell wrote: View Post
I can see it's time to drop by for tea again.
Delicious hoppy malty tea...

Chris Moses
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Old 10-19-2009, 02:56 PM   #120
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Re: Blending with the attack.

Thank you. Nice post. I like tea too.
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Old 10-19-2009, 02:59 PM   #121
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Re: Blending with the attack.

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
By "joining"
Hello Mr. Ledyard.
Hmm. I think there is probably a lot hidden in what you wrote. May I ask you about how you think about joining?
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Old 10-19-2009, 03:01 PM   #122
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Re: Blending with the attack.

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
i can't help you with the aiki part, but i can help you with the smack-down part.
Phi, that sounds like fun. I've been thinking i need a good smack-down lately.
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Old 10-19-2009, 03:08 PM   #123
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Re: Blending with the attack.

All I can say is once you start dealing with force or someone really bent on hurting you there is no getting out of the way. You either take his center or he takes yours.

If you take his, you don't need to get out of the way he will do all the blending that you need in order to save his ass. how much you return to him is pretty much dependent on your skill to control or your intention to harm or what not.

If he takes yours, well again, no collision, you are trying to save your ass...so you had better learn how to regain your center, advantage or whatever you want to call it. Any "collision" that takes place results in you getting hurt or killed.

This whole collision thing occurs when you have two folks in a dojo that are not really bent on hurting each other and don't really understand the whole reality of the situaiton and usually results in a laugh or an "excuse me".

The funny thing really is even "thugs" with no skill inherently understand the prinicple of taking center or siezing the iniativie and overwhelming you with mass, firepower, or what not.

No collision involved at all in reality.

So if we approach it with that mentality, then "collisions" are the engagements that we want to work through and learn how to deal with.

This whole blending idea only happens when folks are trying to be polite to each other in the dojo and we start practicing a theorectical allegory that only occurs in fairy tales.

...and they lived happily ever after.

not saying that this is not we cannot produce this happy ending with what we are doing in aikido. I believe we can, however, we must make sure the steps we are going through are dealing with violence and what actually really happens so we are working on solutions and problems that occur in reality and not in what we would like them to be like.

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Old 10-19-2009, 06:42 PM   #124
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Re: Blending with the attack.

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
I suggest the video clip below, and similar ones of Ueshiba (both post war and pre war) directly contradict what you have said here. I'll also suggest that you experience first hand what is being spoken of and demonstrated here as soon as possible. The longer you delay, the more "oops factor" once you do experience it. And the more posts archived that display the "oops factor".

http://www.56.com/u97/v_NDE1Njk3OTA.html

Best,
Ron
Sorry Ron,

umm...I don't think Shioda sensei and O'Sensei are the same person, that isn't what I am saying. I would hope that it is automatically understood that we are talking about O'Sensei when I said Aikido, as he is the founder of it.

It is worth looking at, O'Sensei's blending technique changed as he got older; my point. Let's look at the 1935 vid. when he is doing Handachi, you clearly see blending. Then like I said, as he got older his blending was less noticeable in his tachiwaza and handachi as compared to 1935. The point is the blend is really noticeable when he was younger and less noticeable when he was older. But, never the less, he was still applying blending. All of which showing he felt blending was important; blending is important to Aikido.

I am sure you are familiar with these vid but look at them in the following order to see how he has changed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98yRuBkUBGQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4_RUrFsBG8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XoDK3...eature=related
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Old 10-20-2009, 07:37 AM   #125
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Blending with the attack.

Quote:
Josh Phillipson wrote: View Post
Christian, How on earth can you do that?!
OK, how 'bout some tabletop aiki. Take a chopstick. Sit down at the dinner table. Put one end of the chopstick on the table and hold the other end with your fingertip with the hand and arm reaching straight out. Let the weight of your arm press down slightly while reaching out holding the chopstick vertical. Now, keeping that contact pressure, allow your arm to simply fall naturally to the table top without changing anything. You might think that the chopstick will simply topple toward you -- but no, it flies AWAY from you as its contact is sheared way from the surface and the applied moment rotates and translates it when released.

You never collided with the chopstick, but you never lost your connection to it, either. You joined with it -- actually helping to keeping it upright initially, and then, well -- you remained joined in not keeping it upright...

Now imagine a chopstick with several flexible taped joints trying stand vertically under its own weight. The weakest of those joints becomes the tabletop. Done dynamically, and well-oriented that applied joint failure in shear will remove the base weight holding friction for lateral support, like lifting the other end of a long rope off the ground by applying a wave to the rope.

That's what Shioda is doing.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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