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Old 09-04-2008, 03:18 PM   #101
Erick Mead
 
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Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Huh, well, do you mind if I point Ushiro sensei in your direction since you have such a firm grasp on sanchin? I'm sure he'll be delighted to know his sanchin might be lacking or that he doesn't have it down just right. Let me know if it works out differently for you than the last person who said something like that to him.
Ye gods and little ducks. I didn't talk about Ushiro's sanchin, but the sanchin I was exposed to, which may lack things his very well may have, and is one of the reasons I look for these things elsewhere. There is nothing in the world that does not lack something. sheesh.

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
Yes -- and it is very effective. Sanchin is asagao, so it directly relates to the kokyu undo that are expressed in the various aikido waza
That is hardly critical of sanchin as a general statement -- but a simultaneous acknowledgement of its fundamaental VALUE and some limitaitons of some forms of it. I do not pretend that aikido waza do not have their own limitations -- I just decline to sign on to overbroad assumptions about what those limitations are, or how they should be remedied.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 09-04-2008, 03:31 PM   #102
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Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

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Since you have such a great grasp of things, I'm sure you won't mind if people in your area come visit you to learn all this stuff, right? So, for everyone in the southern part of the U.S., they can come to you to learn, right? You'll help them with training aiki...do, right?
I do not feel the need to save aikido from itself. I am fairly sure it will totter on. I have no intention of changing any traditional understanding -- I just want to ground that understanding in a different medium. Full disclosure: my main source for the traditional understanding, consistent with what I have been taught -- but with an empiricial bent -- is Miura Baien.
Quote:
Miura Baien wrote:
When I ask a person why a stone falls to the ground when it is released from my hand, he says "because it is heavy, everyone knows this". But he does not understand this thing he says he knows. He does not realise that he is speaking from habit, and to all intents he may as well be speaking in a drunken stupor.
If you will note I did not and do not criticize what Ark's exercises are claimed to accomplish -- I just described what they are doing mechanically from what they themselves have described doing physically. It is not a challenge but a broadening of understanding. It is a denial that there is only one (or a few ways) to accomplish those things. It is a claim that different ways to accomplish the same thing are far more mechanically alike than they are superficially different. It just broadens understanding of what they are doing, the same as it broadens my understanding of what aikido waza and kokyu undo are accomplishing.

Last edited by Erick Mead : 09-04-2008 at 03:37 PM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 09-04-2008, 03:46 PM   #103
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Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

But, why wouldn't you want to know what Ueshiba actually knew and did in HIS aikido. Isn't it odd for subsequent generations of aikidoka to continue to scratch their heads in puzzlement over the things Ueshiba did -- and called Aikido -- which they cannot emulate?

It's an odd thing that there are so many people still so completely satisfied to believe that Ueshiba's talent was so far above and beyond theirs, that they can only be in awe of him and never be like him. Or, heaven forfend, actually surpass him in skill.
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Old 09-04-2008, 04:38 PM   #104
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Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

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Erick Mead wrote: View Post
I do not feel the need to save aikido from itself. I am fairly sure it will totter on. I have no intention of changing any traditional understanding -- I just want to ground that understanding in a different medium.
In the same breath, you state you have no intention of changing aikido understanding but that you want to use a different medium to ... well, change aikido understanding.

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Erick Mead wrote: View Post
If you will note I did not and do not criticize what Ark's exercises are claimed to accomplish -- I just described what they are doing mechanically from what they themselves have described doing physically.
So, you state here in words that you understand Ark's exercises so that you know what his happening mechanically. Again, I say, hey, everyone, Erick knows this stuff, right? Surely people can come to you and have you *show* them what Ark's exercises are for, right? Or are you just intellectually mast...er... intellectualizing these discussions when you can't really *do*?

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Erick Mead wrote: View Post
It is not a challenge but a broadening of understanding. It is a denial that there is only one (or a few ways) to accomplish those things. It is a claim that different ways to accomplish the same thing are far more mechanically alike than they are superficially different. It just broadens understanding of what they are doing, the same as it broadens my understanding of what aikido waza and kokyu undo are accomplishing.
So you *know* such that you can broaden everyone's understanding? Hey, so, people can come to you to get understanding of what's going on, right? They can show up at your dojo and you'll get them started on the way, right? Or is this yet another intellectual exercise in futility?
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Old 09-04-2008, 04:55 PM   #105
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Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

aikido waza that best train aiki...do
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Old 09-04-2008, 05:44 PM   #106
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Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

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Since everyone moves a bit differently and everyone moves differently each time (with same technique), there will be quite a bit of variation in trying to do a technique. However, there seem to be generalities in movements and controls (As Dan pointed out with sankyo one time).
Precisely... waza is simply a snapshot of one particular application instance, which occurred at that precise moment of interaction between uke and nage, in which all the dynamic variables of interactive moment coincide to create it.

Because of the variable nature of dynamic movement, the importance of uke's role is underscored; uke needs to re-create the "ideal" set of conditions for nage, each and every time - a tall order for the beginning student, in a format that has the roles reversed.

Practically, I feel that approaching it in terms of generalities of movement and control (powered by "aiki") is the way forward. Every "technique" has an entry, the technique proper, and an exit. What I would consider actual "technique" is not the entire sequence from start to finish (what is generally referred to as "waza"), but what happens in the middle. How aiki is applied from start to finish is what makes the waza - not the other way round.

Ignatius
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Old 09-04-2008, 06:19 PM   #107
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Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

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Jim Sorrentino wrote: View Post
Hi Hunter,The sanchin I know from Uechi-ryu karatedo is a solo kata. One may practice certain conditioning exercises in sanchin stance with a partner, and one may also have one's sanchin stance and overall form tested by a teacher or knowledgeable partner. Which "sanchin" do you mean? Thanks!
Jim,

Not Hunter, never done sanchin. But I can say that there are several versions or variations of sanchin from White Crane to Uechi-ryu to Goju-ryu to Isshin-ryu etc. They may all look different to some degree (e.g. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzOMYrtNWRI), but they're all (supposed to be) conditioning the same thing. It can be done as a solo practice, or (usually) with a partner doing shime "testing". So I would almost guarantee Hunter is referring to the one exercise.

Now... to bring this back on topic... the (open) question is... if solo kata is a form of body conditioning, is it plausible to perform an aikido waza in the same way, or would it just be akin to an empty (as in devoid of...) taiji form? OR... is how you move an expression in itself, and it just happens to look like a "form"?

Ignatius
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Old 09-04-2008, 09:27 PM   #108
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Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

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Ignatius Teo wrote: View Post
... in which all the dynamic variables of interactive moment coincide to create it.
Should read:
in which all the dynamic variables of interactive movement coincide to create it.

Ignatius
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Old 09-04-2008, 10:01 PM   #109
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Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

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Ignatius Teo wrote: View Post
Precisely... waza is simply a snapshot of one particular application instance, which occurred at that precise moment of interaction between uke and nage, in which all the dynamic variables of interactive moment coincide to create it.

Because of the variable nature of dynamic movement, the importance of uke's role is underscored; uke needs to re-create the "ideal" set of conditions for nage, each and every time - a tall order for the beginning student, in a format that has the roles reversed.
Precisely. You always learn more from failure; success can be just dumb luck -- but failure always teaches. Waza training is set up to fail -- to fail to ever reproduce the technique precisely every time. Despite the importance of uke trying to reproduce the prescribed attack -- it is never exactly "right" We speak of the principle that "Uke is never wrong," and so it is Nage's job to adapt to uke's "error." Similarly, I was taught the risk of atemi (hand, elbow, shoulder, knee or shin) in aikido as the "errors" that inevtiably occur and are to be narrowly avoided. If one is slightly less careful -- they are not avoided. In aikido the errors are more dangerous than the "techniques." The pedagogy follows the first rule of warfare -- "No battle plan survives contact with the enemy."

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Ignatius Teo wrote: View Post
Practically, I feel that approaching it in terms of generalities of movement and control (powered by "aiki") is the way forward. Every "technique" has an entry, the technique proper, and an exit. What I would consider actual "technique" is not the entire sequence from start to finish (what is generally referred to as "waza"), but what happens in the middle. How aiki is applied from start to finish is what makes the waza - not the other way round.
I agree. What the waza provide is a set of working templates from which to take an example and generalize a principle or principles that it contains with specific sets of variations in the form, varied in the timing, the distance, orientation etc. that show the interplay.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 09-05-2008, 03:41 AM   #110
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Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

OK.. so which waza best trains aiki then?

Ignatius
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Old 09-05-2008, 06:32 AM   #111
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Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

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Precisely. You always learn more from failure; success can be just dumb luck -- but failure always teaches.
Huh, really? So, all this time that I've been training to succeed is wrong? I should be just failing so that I can really learn? How about training up to the point of failure? Where's that fit in?

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Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Waza training is set up to fail -- to fail to ever reproduce the technique precisely every time. Despite the importance of uke trying to reproduce the prescribed attack -- it is never exactly "right" We speak of the principle that "Uke is never wrong," and so it is Nage's job to adapt to uke's "error."
You know, you should put out some vids and go on the seminar circuit with your expertise. And let everyone come to you so that you can teach them how to *fail* at aiki...do yet learn something all the time -- using your own words, that is.

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Erick Mead wrote: View Post
I agree. What the waza provide is a set of working templates from which to take an example and generalize a principle or principles that it contains with specific sets of variations in the form, varied in the timing, the distance, orientation etc. that show the interplay.
Time to show people Erick. Let them all come to you and you can show them. Or put up video of you doing all this. Let people see how you *fail* but learn through it all. I think that would be most helpful to people.
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Old 09-05-2008, 06:45 AM   #112
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Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

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Ignatius Teo wrote: View Post
OK.. so which waza best trains aiki then?
shomen uchi ikkyo and iriminage where nage feet do not move. of course I could say just about any aikido waza. see if you can do it in natural stand, feet parallel shoulder width, and don't move an inch. then graduate to do it on one leg. on my best day I could hardly do any of that. I have seen other folks that could do it. I was also on the receiving end of folks that could do it.
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Old 09-05-2008, 07:25 AM   #113
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Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

It's a trick question Phi...

If aiki is formless, and waza is static, how can you train aiki in waza? I don't think you can... the best you can do is attempt to apply aiki in that particular instance - which may or may not end up being the waza you intended.

Last edited by eyrie : 09-05-2008 at 07:33 AM.

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Old 09-05-2008, 07:54 AM   #114
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Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

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OK.. so which waza best trains aiki then?
None.
It was never there to begin with, it's not there now. It's an empty promise, as more and more are finding out.
And the more you search for it there, the worse off you will be.

Worse still are all these crazy ideas of externally moving your body and turning and blending as... aiki.
It has nothing at all to do with it, and is the worst thing you can do if you are in pursuit of it.
You can do that for thirty years and you still won't find it.
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Old 09-05-2008, 08:11 AM   #115
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Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

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Huh, really? So, all this time that I've been training to succeed is wrong? I should be just failing so that I can really learn? How about training up to the point of failure? Where's that fit in?
You know, you should put out some vids and go on the seminar circuit with your expertise. And let everyone come to you so that you can teach them how to *fail* at aiki...do yet learn something all the time -- using your own words, that is.
Time to show people Erick. Let them all come to you and you can show them. Or put up video of you doing all this. Let people see how you *fail* but learn through it all. I think that would be most helpful to people.
Why? If you plainly have not understood what I am relating from the stuff you HAVE seen in other videos then it is doubtful you would grasp the point merely seeing me -- all YOU would see are waza and kokyu undo rather than what lies within them - and in what Ark describes as I have also related. I don't have to diminish his work, or anyone else's to uphold the work I have been given -- or to make observations about how they may indeed relate. A failure to bend the knee of subservience to another person's vision of things is not a countering claim of dominance --- but of independence. Only those who demand dominance would take it amiss. I appreciate your contribution to the discussion, however, in light of the teaching role of failure. Some misunderstandings are mere accident -- some the result of unhappy coincidence -- and some are the product of a serious and studied effort. I commend the depth of your study.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 09-05-2008, 08:18 AM   #116
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Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

One nagging question I've always had throughout my aikido training is: "What can you do if you don't have the space to make tai sabaki?" The standard advice about making your movements smaller were understood from an external point of view. However, the recent body training that I've undertaken has provided immense insight to me wrt this question. Likewise it has helped to provide other insights to things like "Stillness in motion, motion in stillness".

For me the start of this training was like finding a secret decoder ring.....

The question which started this thread are which waza used to best train aiki. IMO, training waza has real value just not in training the body to do aiki. However, can I practice aiki (test my abilities) while doing waza? Yes, I'm already doing it a little (I believe).

Mark

Last edited by mjchip : 09-05-2008 at 08:29 AM.
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Old 09-05-2008, 08:37 AM   #117
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Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

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Why? If you plainly have not understood what I am relating from the stuff you HAVE seen in other videos then it is doubtful you would grasp the point merely seeing me -- all YOU would see are waza and kokyu undo rather than what lies within them - and in what Ark describes as I have also related. I don't have to diminish his work, or anyone else's to uphold the work I have been given -- or to make observations about how they may indeed relate. A failure to bend the knee of subservience to another person's vision of things is not a countering claim of dominance --- but of independence. Only those who demand dominance would take it amiss. I appreciate your contribution to the discussion, however, in light of the teaching role of failure. Some misunderstandings are mere accident -- some the result of unhappy coincidence -- and some are the product of a serious and studied effort. I commend the depth of your study.
It isn't about me at all, Erick. It was all about you as your posts show. You are the one detailing expertise in these subjects. You are the one giving analysis of these things. You are the one putting yourself out there with post after post of details and physics and rotational theories and etc. You are the one subjecting everyone to your expertise. I merely am calling you on it so that you can help everyone else out there who is having trouble, since I would obviously miss all the things that lie within (internal stuff) that you're doing. Hey, no big deal to me. I'll miss it. But you could be helping other people out there in your area. How about they stop by and you can teach them?

So, why aren't you offering or inviting people to your dojo so that you can teach them through your understanding of all that's going on? Why aren't you out there showing people what you can do through your understanding? I am simply asking you to *show* and *do* what you so easily post. Can you *show* or *do* these things in aiki...do with the work you have been given?

It isn't about silly things like dominance or subservience. It's about someone else out there who understands these things, can show them, and can do them, and can teach them. I just want people to get started on learning the internal stuff. Since you're in the south, your dojo would be a great place for people to go to get trained. Ark visits every so often on East and West coast. Dan's in New England. Mike is in Colorado. You're in Florida. Don't you want to help people with your understanding of internal stuff to allow them to be *independent*? Isn't that what you're professing here? To be independent and not subservient to another's vision? Why aren't you inviting people to come to you so that you can show and do and teach aiki?
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Old 09-05-2008, 08:38 AM   #118
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Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

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Why? If you plainly have not understood what I am relating from the stuff you HAVE seen in other videos then it is doubtful you would grasp the point merely seeing me -- all YOU would see are waza and kokyu undo rather than what lies within them - and in what Ark describes as I have also related. I don't have to diminish his work, or anyone else's to uphold the work I have been given -- or to make observations about how they may indeed relate. A failure to bend the knee of subservience to another person's vision of things is not a countering claim of dominance --- but of independence. Only those who demand dominance would take it amiss. I appreciate your contribution to the discussion, however, in light of the teaching role of failure. Some misunderstandings are mere accident -- some the result of unhappy coincidence -- and some are the product of a serious and studied effort. I commend the depth of your study.
This is too assume all works are of equall merit. We all get a passing grade regardless of output. It's utter nonsense that continues to fail, one, after the other, after the other, when folks meet people with true aiki, and true understanding. Further that we would fail to "see" such obviously external understandings you continue to discuss is ridiculous. That system and understanding was never equal, and is clearly lacking the depth most thought it held.
For me the failures I see occur on two levels, Aiki-power, and then martially. Two very different topics.
There are those undone by the former(most actually), but who can more than adequately answer the later (good grapplers). I haven't met anyone who as yet impressed with me with an understading of both...yet.
I know they are out there though.
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Old 09-05-2008, 08:42 AM   #119
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Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

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Ignatius Teo wrote: View Post
OK.. so which waza best trains aiki then?
All of them together; none of them in isolation. That's like asking which line in the grain of the bokken is the "Real" wood. Real wood is both analytically patterned, an unbroken whole, inherently both branched into divisions and seamlessly joined. So is everything. Everything partakes of jōri (条理). If I were to rank them however, I would say that iriminage and sumi-otoshi contain the clearest representation of differing elements of critical importance. But ikkyo has aspects of both of those elements and so ikkyo really still is the most basic and worthwhile of any one of them.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 09-05-2008, 09:16 AM   #120
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Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

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You are the one subjecting everyone to your expertise. I merely am calling you on it so that you can help everyone else out there who is having trouble, since I would obviously miss all the things that lie within (internal stuff) that you're doing. [snip flame bait]
The application of what I have seen to principles that are themselves beyond dispute is not the role of an expert. Anybody can do likewise and if I am wrong in that application -- anybody willing to do the work could show it to be incorrect if it were so. The differences of method between what is raised in this topic of training versus waza and kokyu undo as traditionally received and properly understood are not as stark nor as substantive as is claimed. Understanding may well be lacking in many places , but lack of understanding will screw up any method. Understanding can be had by many means and in many different terms. I rely on principle, my experience and my own thought in this way -- not some claim of applying indisputable authority. If you disagree -- dispute it substantively. Don't just issue dares and ridicule. It is demeaning -- but not to me.

I read what Sagawa has said (one of the things this recurrent discussion has led me to discover) and I take the man seriously. Since you will not listen to me -- and are not required to -- perhaps you will listen to him, simply because someone else claims to:

Quote:
Yukiyoshi Sagawa <<from "Clear Power">> wrote:
By Thinking <for yourself> You Will Continue to Innovate

Up until now, no one was able to send people flying by merely a touch. Indeed, most important is that you keep on thinking. If you don't you cease to have any <good> thoughts. If you continue to think, then a new thought will pop into your head! And then you must write this thought down immediately so that you may try it out, otherwise you will forget it later. Writing this down is key.
You (the Author) are always thinking about math, so you should be able to do even better work <as you go one>. The secret is in always thinking about it. The reason no one progresses or gets any better, stronger is because no one thinks. They forget about what they do in between practices. It has to become a part of your life.
(Author "Even Gauss, and other Mathematicians said the same thing.")
See! This is why you are no good. You don't do something simply because so and so said so. If you simply go through life by simply thinking you can copy people you'll never get anywhere. The only person that can do this is you. You must create your own understanding for yourself.
Take Aiki for example. There is no way to really teach this. Even if I could point at something that is Aiki I can't put it into words. You simply think you can learn everything from me, so you don't develop the habit to think for yourself. That is what divides people that are smart from whose who are not. Even with mathematics, its not as if you suddenly wake up one day able to do these things, am I right? This is the same with Bujutsu. It is about long periods of work, innovation, that you slowly over time become able to do these things. It is not something you can do because you receive a scroll, or secret teachings. Maybe the lot of you grew up watching movies and reading comics and so came to believe that it was this way but all I have to say is that people like that are simply stupid. You can not progress without hard work and effort. And if your effort is simply equal that to others then you'll always be scraping the bottom of the barrel.

Accumulating Thoughts

If you think that humans are gifted and capable of miraculous feats, and to unlock them all you have to do is scrape away the excess, then you'll never get anywhere.
In the end its about accumulating your thoughts and having them act as the foundation for other thoughts. This applies to everything, even math and other areas of study, don't you think?

Deciding for Yourself

<If you decide because> others tell you so, or influence you, then it's no good. You must hold your own counsel. Decide for yourself what is right and what is wrong.
No matter how accomplished a person is, he is never perfect. Never hold what he says to be gospel. If you do, then it will obstruct your own determination to innovate and find things out for yourself. You must take what you learn, and then innovate it based on your own ideas.
or closer to home:

Quote:
'Nothing is known perfectly which has not been masticated by the teeth of disputation'"

Last edited by Erick Mead : 09-05-2008 at 09:27 AM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 09-05-2008, 09:33 AM   #121
ChrisMoses
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Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

My bud "Big" Tony Alvarez gave me one of his Senpokan t-shirts a while back. It has the Japanese equivalent of "More mat, less chat" written across the front.

I'm certainly not opposed to forums, but I'm really sick of the constant bickering.

I'm still teaching Thursday nights at Seattle School of Aikido. If you're in the area and feel like stopping by, please do so. I'm not Mike, Dan, Ark or Rob but I can show you what I'm working on in more concrete terms in 30 minutes on the mat than in six months of posts.

/now back to your regularly scheduled poo slinging.

Chris Moses
TNBBC, "Putting the ME in MEdiocre!"
Budo Tanren at Seattle School of Aikido
Shinto Ryu Iai-Battojutsu
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Old 09-05-2008, 10:29 AM   #122
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Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
I'm still teaching Thursday nights at Seattle School of Aikido. If you're in the area and feel like stopping by, please do so. I'm not Mike, Dan, Ark or Rob but I can show you what I'm working on in more concrete terms in 30 minutes on the mat than in six months of posts.
Hi Chris,

I'm near Clarksburg, WV. So if anyone is in the area or would like to visit, I'm always up for meeting people. Like you, I'm not Mike, Dan, Ark or Rob, but I'll also show what I'm working on, have fun, catch dinner (hey, I'm in WV, we take that term literally sometimes ).

Mark
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Old 09-05-2008, 10:43 AM   #123
gdandscompserv
 
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Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

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Christian Moses wrote: View Post
I'm certainly not opposed to forums, but I'm really sick of the constant bickering.
My aiki sucks...but my scroll-wheel-ryu is very good!
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Old 09-05-2008, 10:47 AM   #124
gdandscompserv
 
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Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
I'm near Clarksburg, WV.
Ah. Clarksburg. Nice town when I was wondering around there back in the early eighties. How bout them 'Eers?
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Old 09-05-2008, 10:53 AM   #125
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Re: aikido waza that best train aiki...do

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Ricky Wood wrote: View Post
Ah. Clarksburg. Nice town when I was wondering around there back in the early eighties. How bout them 'Eers?
This state loves the Mountaineers. The whole season's home games have been sold out since way before the season started.
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