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Old 11-04-2004, 09:29 PM   #76
Don_Modesto
Dojo: Messores Sensei (Largo, Fl.)
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Re: Would you correct your sempai?

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote:
I know that sometimes the best way for me to understand the "way that is being shown" is to spend a part of the time playing with other ways so I can compare how it feels in my body and how it affects/doesn't affect my partner.
Kindred soul!

Quote:
As we cannot know people's motives, it's just one more reason for focussing on your own training.
Yes.

Last edited by Don_Modesto : 11-04-2004 at 09:35 PM.

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
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Old 11-04-2004, 09:34 PM   #77
Don_Modesto
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Re: Would you correct your sempai?

Quote:
Ian Hurst wrote:
...basing training behaviour on rank is pandering to egos.
So often I see blather and ego in corrections. It just distracts with a social element unnecessary.

Without exaggerating, I've seen beginners on the mat for a total of 15 minutes correcting people. Women have told me that men seem to think they have a genetic advantage and correct them despite vast gaps of experience and accomplishment favoring the women.

The dangers of condescension and distraction greatly outweigh the presumptive benefits of instruction.

Last edited by Don_Modesto : 11-04-2004 at 09:36 PM.

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
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Old 11-04-2004, 11:20 PM   #78
maikerus
Dojo: Roppongi Yoshinkan Aikido / Roppongi, Tokyo, Japan
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Re: Would you correct your sempai?

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote:
Mike;

I've convinced the powers to be to hold a workshop in Yokohama either this year or early next - last time I only met Mike Kimeda. This time I would bring dogi.
Hey...lets meet up. You have an open invitation to RYA...as do any and all aikithugs I also know about 47 good bars we could hit

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote:
Anyhow - the point about resistance at all costs is something I've noticed too and it always leaves me puzzled. Like Judo, Shodokan has a very powerful way of introducing that sort of practice just as (quick remind to Rupert) Judo also has non-resistant training such as uchikome and kata. Other forms of Aikido have their own way of introducing resistance training. With all there is a distinct time and place. I can't help thinking that these statements are nothing more than macho posturing and wonder how their Aikido can possibly improve if the relationship is so absolute.
There is a time and a place for resistance and I can't help but think that if you try and do it all the time you are just spinning your wheels and not focusing on getting better or learning about anything.

I mean if we learned to walk by trudging through a meter of snow uphill while carrying a full backpack while people were pelting you with snowballs...why stop crawling and try and leave the house? Okay...bad example, but you know what I mean.

--Michael

Hiriki no yosei 3 - The kihon that makes your head ache instead of your legs
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Old 11-04-2004, 11:43 PM   #79
xuzen
 
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Re: Would you correct your sempai?

Hi all,

Thank god in the Yoshinkan syllabus, there is a standardised format of technique (grading syllabus). It is rigid and my guess it forms the gold standard of minimum techinical competency. When all things fail and there is a disagreement, go back to the basics and start from the source in this case the standard format. The dojo sensei (the highest authority of any particular dojo) should have the final say on how the technique is interpreted.

Knowing that we are all individual with individual minds, disagreement are not an uncommon thing, but it will be good to refer to the grading syllabus as the gold standard and work from there.

Any unconvetional technique that one wishes to explore should be encouraged but only outside the official classroom time (eg. afterclass).

Boon.

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
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Old 11-05-2004, 01:09 AM   #80
William Westdyke
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Re: Would you correct your sempai?

OK, first for Raul, (only because yours is the last post I read) everyone hates that beginner or person from another dojo who is there simply to prove, as you say, "aikido was no good." But that has nothing to do with a fair amount of Resistance in the proper direction. For example, running through an irimi nage arm if it isn't solidly in someones center. It is definitely "falling down" for a 6'5" guy to fail to run though an irimi nage delivered off balance by a 5'8" guy. It does nothing for either the uke or nage in respect to training. It only cushions the smaller guys pride in the fact that he can't deal with the bigger attacker. As to your statement about strangling or elbowing, it simply boils down to the fact that a good aikidoka shouldn't need to resort to violence. The violent atemi isn't aikido anymore. Sure, I can through an elbow in, to make the technique easier but that is NOT aikido. Its aikijujutsu. Any shodan should be able to do any technique against an untrained attacher without delivering injury (pain is OK) even if they resist. Anything less and they need to be working on their basics again.
(By the way this post isn't meant to be directed against you personally, only the idea of the violent atemi.)

Second in regards to Michael's Post,
Thanks for your direct and honest approach replying to my post. Please allow me to respond in turn with no hard feelings.

I am sometimes really disappointed with the level of training our generation of aikidoka are receiving. It is simple fact that Osensei leveled his students. Pain was a part of things. His uchi deshi are all DANGEROUS. Any one of them can step on any mat with any group of people and show a proficiency at movement that is amazing. The sad thing is, that special thing they all have is slowly disappearing. The ability to do a technique under stress is becoming a very rare thing. Look at the posts about "aikido no working in a fight" or similar threads. Some people have tales of "one time I..." but most say that it didn't work for them.

I really BELIEVE in aikido. One shouldn't have to hurt another to gain the upper hand in a fight. But I don't believe someone can gain that level of proficiency without going through daily trials. If one doesn't leave the mat frustrated with at least one technique they tried that day, what have they learned. I think they have learned a false confidence in an ideal, which they can't back up.

You can't climb a latter from the 6th step up. Osensei showed us all what was achievable. He even showed his students a path up that ladder. I don't think he ever believed anyone could be as good as him without going though what he did. Now, obviously we can't all train day to day 15 hours a day, but we also don't need to make training "comfortable" or "easy" for our sempai. It should only become harder as one progresses though the levels of training.

If I stepped on any toes I apologize. I really didn't mean to be rude in this post. I surely didn't intend any of this against anyone specifically. As they say, its just my 2 cents.

William

"You, not anyone else, is 100% responsible for your own happyness and wellbeing." -- David Robertson
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Old 11-05-2004, 01:17 AM   #81
William Westdyke
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Re: Would you correct your sempai?

LOL... I just read Michaels post about trudging through a meter of snow. All I could think about was Rocky running up snow covered mountains to train to fight the Russian. We leave the house to prove something to ourselves. We aren't trying to walk, we are trying to run up a mountain with a full backpack. Perhaps the snowballs, the backpack, and the meter of snow help us learn.

"You, not anyone else, is 100% responsible for your own happyness and wellbeing." -- David Robertson
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Old 11-05-2004, 01:35 AM   #82
xuzen
 
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Re: Would you correct your sempai?

Quote:
William Westdyke wrote:

I am sometimes really disappointed with the level of training our generation of aikidoka are receiving. It is simple fact that Osensei leveled his students. Pain was a part of things. His uchi deshi are all DANGEROUS. Any one of them can step on any mat with any group of people and show a proficiency at movement that is amazing. The sad thing is, that special thing they all have is slowly disappearing. The ability to do a technique under stress is becoming a very rare thing. Look at the posts about "aikido no working in a fight" or similar threads. Some people have tales of "one time I..." but most say that it didn't work for them.

I really BELIEVE in aikido. One shouldn't have to hurt another to gain the upper hand in a fight. But I don't believe someone can gain that level of proficiency without going through daily trials. If one doesn't leave the mat frustrated with at least one technique they tried that day, what have they learned. I think they have learned a false confidence in an ideal, which they can't back up.

.William
Sniff.. sniff... I love your post William. Aikido is not a magic bullet, one has to work at it continuously to gain the sort of proficiency seen in previous great senseis. With your reminder... I should train harder and love pain more <grin>.

Gambatte.
Boon.

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
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Old 11-05-2004, 01:52 AM   #83
maikerus
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Re: Would you correct your sempai?

Hey William,

I have also sometimes been disappointed about the level of Aikido that I have seen and felt in my travels over the last several years. Its unfortunate that I always compare everyone I train with to my instructors (Chida, Takeno, Ando, Inoue, Mustard, Chino, Shioda among others), all of whom have leveled me without thinking about it and made me really, really train hard and haven't always held back (okay, they have since I am still here...but I have been knocked senseless and taken some terrible punishment) when they do a technique. Especially if I did something stupid in recent memory.

They also all taught me about the smaller movements and the sublties inside the techniques which I wouldn't have understood or even seen if I was always facing 100% resistance. Chida Sensei talks about differences in mm of how a technique is done. Takeno Sensei talks about the correct size of a circular movement dependent upon uke. Mustard Sensei stresses the attack and the timing to the microsecond. Inoue Sensei talks about how much of your skin is touching uke's. These are all really, really tiny things that make the technique unbelievably powerful. And use unbelievably such little strength.

What they really did was teach me how to learn and how to see progression in these details that they are showing me. And they used resistance to do that...just not 100% resistance *all* the time, no matter what.

The magic is in the details and you can't look at the details if you are stuck fighting your own ego when someone is resisting for resistance sake.

The sempai/kohai topic of this thread goes with this, I think, because there has to be mutual respect to give yourself 100% to your shite and they also have to have at least some respect to teach you what they know.

My thoughts ramble on...

--Michael

Hiriki no yosei 3 - The kihon that makes your head ache instead of your legs
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Old 11-05-2004, 08:45 AM   #84
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Would you correct your sempai?

No Michael, no rambling there at all. What you said corrosponds exactly to my limited experiences with Inoue, Chida, and Mustard Sensei. I haven't had the pleasure (or the pain) of training with Takeno Sensei yet, but Man, have I heard stories!

Quote:
The violent atemi isn't aikido anymore. Sure, I can through an elbow in, to make the technique easier but that is NOT aikido. Its aikijujutsu.
I'm sorry, but I don't understand what that is based on. Aikido has no rules. Sometimes the atemi is the technique. Of course, different teachers in aikido do teach different things, so maybe this is just one of those differences.

Quote:
Any shodan should be able to do any technique against an untrained attacher without delivering injury (pain is OK) even if they resist. Anything less and they need to be working on their basics again.
Well, this I just can't agree with. In a dojo setting, I would certainly say my goal is not to injure my attacker. I might even say that my goal is to do the *least injury possible* to a real attacker outside of the dojo. But I would in no way expect to do no injury whatsoever against even an untrained attacker outside of the dojo who is larger or stronger or faster or better armed or....I think you get the point.

In Shioda Sensei's autobiography, he talks about many experiences where he used aikido outside of the dojo...for the life of me, I can't remember one where the attacker was not injured. But Kancho didn't say 'I wasn't doing aikido in that moment because I injured my attacker'. He said that it was instead evidence that aikido worked.

No offense,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 11-05-2004, 09:00 AM   #85
raul rodrigo
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Re: Would you correct your sempai?

[quote=William Westdyke]OK, first for Raul, (only because yours is the last post I read) everyone hates that beginner or person from another dojo who is there simply to prove, as you say, "aikido was no good." But that has nothing to do with a fair amount of Resistance in the proper direction. For example, running through an irimi nage arm if it isn't solidly in someones center. It is definitely "falling down" for a 6'5" guy to fail to run though an irimi nage delivered off balance by a 5'8" guy. It does nothing for either the uke or nage in respect to training. It only cushions the smaller guys pride in the fact that he can't deal with the bigger attacker. As to your statement about strangling or elbowing, it simply boils down to the fact that a good aikidoka shouldn't need to resort to violence. The violent atemi isn't aikido anymore. Sure, I can through an elbow in, to make the technique easier but that is NOT aikido. Its aikijujutsu. Any shodan should be able to do any technique against an untrained attacher without delivering injury (pain is OK) even if they resist. Anything less and they need to be working on their basics again.
(By the way this post isn't meant to be directed against you personally, only the idea of the violent atemi.)

I understand what you mean about a fair amount of resistance. For morote dori kokyu nage i expect my uke to hold really hard to show me if there is in fact something wrong with my technique. I don't mind honest ukemi. But it became (in my opinion) a contest of ego on the part of this particular uke. And I wasnt' going to play; I too am against the violent atemi. Yes, there are ways and means of getting compliance without pain, by going to a henkawaza, etc, etc. I dont want uke to salve my ego by just giving in. But at the same time I don't want to force a technique, ie, do irimi-nage when uke is positioning himself precisely to stop iriminage. One shifts to a henka -- kiri otoshi, kokyu nage. The point of my post is simply this: haven't you ever had an yudansha uke whose objective is apparently to demonstrate that your technique doesn't work?
What is fair resistance and what isn't?
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Old 11-05-2004, 11:24 AM   #86
happysod
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Re: Would you correct your sempai?

Quote:
What is fair resistance and what isn't?
Difficult one (cue for lots of caveats). In free-form sparring, I'd say any level of Resistance is "fair" as you're attempting to simulate a real (TM) attack. In normal practice, it should be based on what you're trying to achieve.

When learning the move itself (or tidying it up), minimal resistance, just enough to be dead weight and allow the balance points to be looked at, then ramping the resistance up as the technique becomes more instinctive.

We have three main levels of resistance and the type to use is normally set when the technique is asked for (and based on the shape of movement asked for) so determining how much is not normally a problem. I agree, resistance can hinder learning rather than help, but there's nothing worse than a floppy attack by a rag-doll uke.
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Old 11-05-2004, 01:40 PM   #87
aikidoc
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Re: Would you correct your sempai?

If atemi is not part of aikido then O'Sensei must have been doing another art.
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Old 11-05-2004, 01:44 PM   #88
Don_Modesto
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Re: Would you correct your sempai?

Quote:
William Westdyke wrote:
....about strangling or elbowing, it simply boils down to the fact that a good aikidoka shouldn't need to resort to violence.
Reconciliation works both ways. Knucle-draggin thugs need to learn more benevolent ways; limp wristed hopefuls need to learn a modicum of violence. Osensei wouldn't even admit a student to training unless he'd already mastered another martial art ("aikido for the world" came as an economic imperative--adapt or disappear--recognized by his son). The lovey-dovey harmony stuff the founder considered ADVANCED martial art. Violence, like the words or not, is the foundation.

Quote:
The violent atemi isn't aikido anymore.
Poppycock.

"Violent atemi"?! Redundant phrasing here. Atemi IS violent. Moreover, this IS harmony. Remember the context whence comes aikido. The famous Jpn definition of social harmony has it thus: The nail that sticks up gets HAMMERED. No accomodation of diverse needs and desires through tacitly democratic means--Hammered!

Quote:
Sure, I can through an elbow in, to make the technique easier but that is NOT aikido. Its aikijujutsu.
This demonstrates a misunderstanding of the two (?) arts.

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
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Old 11-05-2004, 02:14 PM   #89
Nick P.
 
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Re: Would you correct your sempai?

Ahhhhh! Not again!

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6632

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Old 11-05-2004, 03:28 PM   #90
suren
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Re: Would you correct your sempai?

Nick, your situation I believe is a little different. I'm not talking about correcting someone based on my own limited knowledge, I was asking whether it's appropriate to express your opinion when you see your partner does not follow sensei's instructions.
I know it became a huge thread, but if you follow my posts you will see that I do not rely on my interpretation of the technique.
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Old 11-05-2004, 09:18 PM   #91
raul rodrigo
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Re: Would you correct your sempai?

In this particular case,the uke crouching down to prevent irimi-nage, my shihan taught me a tsubo using the thumb and middle finger applied to the face of uke just inside the jawbone, where the molars are. Applied hard, it makes uke rear back instinctively and then you can move in with irimi-nage. It hurts and that too is part of aikido. But for me to have done this to someone from another dojo (a whole other aikido federation actually) would created tensions between the two groups that I didn't want to get into at that point. So to me its not a matter of not having the technique to work against the resistance, its a question of, as I said, what was honest resistance at that point. Against someone from my own dojo, I would have no compunction about using that method against a recalcitrant uke.
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Old 11-06-2004, 01:33 AM   #92
Nick P.
 
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Re: Would you correct your sempai?

Quote:
Suren Baghdasaryan wrote:
I'm not talking about correcting someone based on my own limited knowledge, I was asking whether it's appropriate to express your opinion when you see your partner does not follow Sensei's instructions.
I know it became a huge thread, but if you follow my posts you will see that I do not rely on my interpretation of the technique.
Is not one's opinion based on one's (limited or otherwise) knowledge?

Back in Japan, there is a student who, I am convinced, is certain he is honestly attempting to do as Sensei is 1) telling him and 2) telling the whole class. How else can one explain a whole room of people (Sensei included) simply shaking their heads, but this person continues as they always have: frankly, butchering the technique to the point where it takes an awful amount of imagination to convince yourself you and this person are learning from the same teacher! He is my Sempai, so I do as he instructs me (to do otherwise would be rude to him). Then Sensei walks over, and instructs me and the Sempai in a manner best described as 180 degrees from what Sempai was just showing. Then, while Sensei watches, Sempai GOES BACK to what he was teaching me. Sensei leaves, and I am stuck there scratching my head: is Sensei condoning this? Tolerating it? What?!!! This did not happen just once, but several times over 3 weeks (True story).

If Sensei does not correct this (or other) Sempai, why could / should I? For all I know, Sensei thinks I am equally as thick / wrong as the Sempai.

I will worry about my own training; it is after all the only technique I truly can control. If one can even call it that.

And for what it is worth, no, do not correct Sempai, unless asked.

Best,
-N

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Old 11-06-2004, 07:44 AM   #93
GaiaM
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Re: Would you correct your sempai?

Ok, I've stayed out of this thread so far, but now I feel compelled to contribute my two cents.
First of all, I don't generally "correct" my sempai on their technique, but I wouldn't hesitate to point out in a respectful manner if they are doing something very different than what sensei showed, ie. "Is that what sensei did? I thought I saw a tenkan there." or something along those lines.

Quote:
He is my Sempai, so I do as he instructs me (to do otherwise would be rude to him). Then Sensei walks over, and instructs me and the Sempai in a manner best described as 180 degrees from what Sempai was just showing. Then, while Sensei watches, Sempai GOES BACK to what he was teaching me.
I disagree with this. My first responsibility is to sensei, so if I am confident that I am doing what he showed, I will continue to train that way no matter what my partner is doing. Within this context it is possible to receive advice from a sempai on how to IMPROVE my technique, but I won't change to something different than what was demonstrated.

In your case it sounds like this sempai has a really hard time picking up what sensei demonstrates. But this is his problem, it should not affect the technique of the entire dojo.

Just a few thoughts,
Gaia

___________
Gaia Marrs
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Old 11-07-2004, 07:58 AM   #94
Nick P.
 
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Re: Would you correct your sempai?

Quote:
Gaia Thurston-Shaine wrote:
I disagree with this. My first responsibility is to sensei, so if I am confident that I am doing what he showed, I will continue to train that way no matter what my partner is doing. Within this context it is possible to receive advice from a sempai on how to IMPROVE my technique, but I won't change to something different than what was demonstrated.

In your case it sounds like this sempai has a really hard time picking up what sensei demonstrates. But this is his problem, it should not affect the technique of the entire dojo.

Just a few thoughts,
Gaia
I disagreed (and still do) with it as well, but it still happened and continues to happen.

As long as I endeavour to the best of my ability, to do as Sensei instructs, I do not, nor should I, care what others do or say. Ever.

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Old 11-07-2004, 06:55 PM   #95
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Re: Would you correct your sempai?

I don't know - is it even conceivable that you saw the wrong thing and the semapi didn't.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 11-07-2004, 07:31 PM   #96
maikerus
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Re: Would you correct your sempai?

In a situation where you see one thing and your Sempai (or Kohai for that matter) sees, or interprets another is there any problem with asking the instructor to clarify for both of you?

Hiriki no yosei 3 - The kihon that makes your head ache instead of your legs
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Old 11-07-2004, 09:12 PM   #97
GaiaM
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Re: Would you correct your sempai?

Quote:
In a situation where you see one thing and your Sempai (or Kohai for that matter) sees, or interprets another is there any problem with asking the instructor to clarify for both of you?
Nope, that's usually a great plan. And our instructor will often notice things like that quickly and come over on his own.

___________
Gaia Marrs
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Old 12-06-2004, 06:58 PM   #98
Rupert Atkinson
 
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Re: Would you correct your sempai?

My piece on Judo was not meant to be about resistance, but rather to highlight the natural tendency in Judo to try to plant your senior on the mat - an indirect version of correcting your sempai! In good Judo, they do not so much resist as both attack at the same time. I attended a couple of High School competitions in Japan (serious stuff) way back when and the school sensei were the judges. In the process of the fights their sensei (judges) would chide their own students, sometimes giving them a hefty kick up the backsides, and a very loud earfull, if they did not attack constantly or played too defensively (=resistance). As a result, lots of spectacular techniques emerged - both were going for it simultaneously.

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Old 12-06-2004, 08:01 PM   #99
suren
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Re: Would you correct your sempai?

Wow! This thread even beats my previous record one - "Female uke"

Quote:
Michael Stuempel wrote:
In a situation where you see one thing and your Sempai (or Kohai for that matter) sees, or interprets another is there any problem with asking the instructor to clarify for both of you?
It would be a good strategy, but because sensei specifically showed that "common mistake", I'm sure I did not interpret it wrong and my sempai was doing it differently. Asking sensei to clarify would be the same as to ask him to correct my sempai...
Anyway, I did not correct him, but now I know him much better and in such situation would tell him about my observation. Being a nidan I highly doubt he will give me such a chance in the observable future though In any case I would be tactful and would do it in a manner to not hurt his feelings.
I realize this is not acceptable in some dojos, therefore I would not do that in another dojo, but in my dojo with people I know well that's ok and they don't mind.

Again, this is my own opinion, do not get this as a suggestion and if your sempai uses any applied technique on you after your correction, do not blame me .
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Old 12-06-2004, 08:21 PM   #100
PeterR
 
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Re: Would you correct your sempai?

Rupert - its a slightly different situation.

Judo randori is Judo randori - a place where you put your words on the line. Same with Shodokan randori and I dare say with other forms of Aikido randori.

In Judo kata training and uchikome the same basic rules apply as with Aikido kata training.

Still think its possible for two guys to get together and work on a technique and not worry too much who stepped into the dojo before who.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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