Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 04-15-2004, 03:48 PM   #76
Magma
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 168
Offline
I have fallen into the trap of attempting to explain. To tell. There is no telling for these sorts of things, only experiencing.

Some people are ready to venture out to the deep end of the pool and see the beauty there. No description on my part (or anyone's part, for that matter) will give them that experience.

So, I've said my peace. If I have connected with some people, good. If not... eh. I will say this before I go:

You say my head is in the clouds... but I ask you, how better to see heaven?

Tim
It's a sad irony: In U's satori, he forgot every technique he ever knew; since then, generations of doka have spent their whole careers trying to remember.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2004, 03:58 PM   #77
Doka
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 169
Offline
Errr, I am kind of in the middle ground on this and I hope I can put together what I am thinking properly here.

Paul,

I first heard about the "tradition" concerning the Obi over 20 years ago in my old judo dojo. That is not to wash it! I have since then always tret my belt with tender respect outside of training. If it fell off in training then it falls off! I do not adjust my Gi or Obi during practice, as worrying about the state of your clothing shows your mind is not 100% on your Aikido. "Is that a Yoshinkan thang, Ron?"

Tim,

Chill. It is good that you have a focus of respect and learn from that. The other guys have different focus of respect and learn from them. Just because they don't do what you do does not mean that they disrespect it!

It can come across in these threads the attitude of, "If you disagree with me tell me why, and I will tell you why you are wrong and I am right!"

Just throwing thoughts around. Hope I didn't hit anyone!
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2004, 04:11 PM   #78
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Quote:
"Is that a Yoshinkan thang, Ron?"
Yes, it is.

As to seeing heaven, if you believe in it, there are many ways...Jacobs ladder, for instance.

I hope I didn't come across too harsh...but I really get frustrated by some of these made up things that get passed down so much they are told as truisms. Then they get this life of their own, and the true believers tout them as gospel. Sorry, but I just don't buy it.

And believe me, if my instructor came into the dressing room and saw someone's belt on the floor (especially a yudansha's belt), they'd catch heck. After all, he gave them the belt, so they earned it, and he'd want that effort and its symbol respected. That's a fine tradition IN THAT DOJO. To make too much of it though, can get to be rather silly. Belts hold your pants up, or your dogi jacket closed. Tie it properly so you don't end up naked during keiko. Now move along...nothing to see here...

Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2004, 04:47 PM   #79
pcallen
 
pcallen's Avatar
Location: St. Louis
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 19
Offline
Do symbol To wash or not to wash

I am very new to Aikido, I have only been training for two years. IMHO this is a question best left up to one's teacher.

My teacher is of the "don't wash" school. The reason is practical - if working with someone, a bright clean white belt suggests a person that is very new to Aikido and may not have the ukemi skills of a more experienced partner. I assume that this would be the case in many organizations that have students wear the white obi through multiple kyu ranks.

Personally, I find the blood, sweat and tears argument gives me satisfaction. The state of my belt reminds me that I've come a long way. There are probably many people out there who, like me, get down on themselves from time to time about technique and movement. We beat up on ourselves and realize that we have a long way to go (a life time). Looking at my belt lets me put that trip into perspective.

In reply to the post suggesting that the time that they have spent in the military that they have kept all of their equipment and uniforms clean-

"Folks in uniform, who don't pay close enough attention to personal and uniform hygiene are not regarded as models by most others."

- yes but it's not always the case. In World War II PT Boat officers would soak the braid on their caps to tarnish the thread so that people would know them at a glance. Submarine officers would grow beards on their cruises for the same reason.

We come up with lots of traditions, including Kwanza, for many reasons. You buy in or not - it's always personal preference.

I've enjoyed the thread - lots of great discussion. It would be great to work out with you all. It's easy to recognize me - I'm the sweaty guy with the dirty belt.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2004, 04:51 PM   #80
willy_lee
Dojo: City Aikido
Location: San Francisco, CA USA
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 178
Offline
Quote:
Tim Rohr (Magma) wrote:
You say my head is in the clouds... but I ask you, how better to see heaven?
Heh, if you want to stick with that metaphor... I would say, that if your head is in the clouds, you probably can't see much of anything, 'cept clouds

Paul, Ron, I was wondering when you guys were going to get in on this thread...

(I know, I know, this is really my last post, I promise),

=wl

Be polite. Be professional. But have a plan to kill everyone you meet.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2004, 05:30 PM   #81
Chris Li
 
Chris Li's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Sangenkai
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,306
United_States
Offline
Re: To wash or not to wash

Quote:
Phillip Allen (pcallen) wrote:
My teacher is of the "don't wash" school. The reason is practical - if working with someone, a bright clean white belt suggests a person that is very new to Aikido and may not have the ukemi skills of a more experienced partner. I assume that this would be the case in many organizations that have students wear the white obi through multiple kyu ranks.
A nice idea, but I wouldn't rely on it too much if I were you - I've worked with too many people wearing shiny new white belts who turned out to have, say, 30+ years of Judo or Karate, or even 30+ years of Aikido in a different organization.

Best,

Chris

  Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2004, 06:02 PM   #82
Doka
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 169
Offline
Re: Re: To wash or not to wash

Quote:
Christopher Li (Chris Li) wrote:
A nice idea, but I wouldn't rely on it too much if I were you - I've worked with too many people wearing shiny new white belts who turned out to have, say, 30+ years of Judo or Karate, or even 30+ years of Aikido in a different organization.

Best,

Chris


LOL!

I was that person!

I went along to a Jujutsu seminar, and although I have trained Jujjutsu quite a bit, I have never been graded in jujtsu, so I wore a white belt! "You know a lot for a white belt!"

I did the same with Judo. It had been a lllllloooooonnnnnngggggg time since I had done any Judo, so I put on a white belt! Similar thing, but the rules screwed me up. The Judo Sensei running over when he thought I was about to Atemi one of his dan grades!!!!!

I have another reason why I honour my Obi! It came from my teacher who has now passed on.

  Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2004, 06:06 PM   #83
pcallen
 
pcallen's Avatar
Location: St. Louis
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 19
Offline
Chris,

You are definitely right about the fact that the person may have many years in a different art. However, assuming a karateka knows how to take ukemi can cause a serious "owie". The bright white belt is just there as a signal - assume nothing. Thanks for the reply and giving me something to think about!

Phillip Allen

"If the bird will not sing...wait."
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2004, 06:07 PM   #84
Doka
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 169
Offline
Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
Yes, it is.


I remember being slapped round the back of the head for adjusting my Gi! Definitely a Yoshinkan thang!!! Punishing yourself, AND your Sensei punishing you at the same time!!!
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2004, 06:12 PM   #85
Doka
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 169
Offline
Quote:
Phillip Allen (pcallen) wrote:
Chris,

You are definitely right about the fact that the person may have many years in a different art. However, assuming a karateka knows how to take ukemi can cause a serious "owie". The bright white belt is just there as a signal - assume nothing. Thanks for the reply and giving me something to think about!

Phillip Allen
Philip,

I know people who change their belt when it gets worn. I also know a 30+ years Aikido teacher who wears a white belt and is a published author on Aikido!!!

What is it about books and covers????

  Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2004, 06:19 PM   #86
skyetide
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 27
Offline
Forgive me, but how can "looking deeply" be hogwash? What is sad to me is the thought "…not everyone wishes to glean non-physical benefits from Aikido." Huh? That gives me a new perspective, thank you.

And I think it has already been said that wearing a belt/hakama during practice, allowing it to obviously touch the ground is very different from tossing it to the ground after training. But I am a neophyte in Aikido and come from a TKD school where it was expected of students to have a clean ironed uniform and belts that hang perfectly even (again, a metaphor for balance/dualities of the universe). These habits are ingrained in me and are carried over to my Aikido. As I iron my uniform before class it is a sort of meditation/preparation of my mind to train. When I check to make sure my belt hangs even it is a reminder to me that my mind and body must function together. It is much like the many ritual preparations in a Japanese tea ceremony or Sumi-e painting. Of course it is just ritual, but it has meaning to me and helps to center myself before I train. So, I use it. I mean, a car is just a car, but where can it take you? Where would you go? How far? I don't think it is egotistical to want, to desire to know more and look deeper and go far.

Metaphor is a poetic language to speak to each other about the intangible mysteries of the world. I think, perhaps, some of us simply speak a different language. Aikido is an art. As Tim was saying, it can be brought into every level of our life—spiritual, interpersonal, etc. Art and metaphor are nearly impossible to separate (take this from a painter). But if Aikido is not an art to you and metaphor is not a language that you speak, then what Tim has said will not be of value to you.

But that's just me…searching, willingly looking deeper.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2004, 06:45 PM   #87
skyetide
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 27
Offline
Ha! Did I use a metaphor to describe metaphor? Would that be a meta-metaphor?
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2004, 07:18 PM   #88
Chris Li
 
Chris Li's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Sangenkai
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,306
United_States
Offline
Quote:
Tonya Walcott (skyetide) wrote:
Forgive me, but how can "looking deeply" be hogwash?
When it's used as an excuse for a factual error?

Best,

Chris

  Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2004, 08:21 AM   #89
skyetide
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 27
Offline
Looking deep into a shallow pool reveals nothing but your own reflection, I suppose.

May this thread rest in peace.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2004, 09:58 AM   #90
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Quote:
Looking deep[ly] into a shallow pool reveals nothing but your own reflection, I suppose.
This is exactly the type of attitude my post refers to. You assume because we like a pool filled with factual matters, that the pool is shallow, and that our own reflection is the only thing we can see.

That is an obnoxious, condescending, patronizing attitude. Apparently, you are the one who only sees their own reflection.

I have no problem with others having their own views, just a problem when they make unfounded assumptions about mine.

Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2004, 02:02 PM   #91
skyetide
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 27
Offline
Ron,

Forgive me. Yes, it is my own reflection. I assume nothing.

Be well.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2004, 02:27 PM   #92
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Tonya,

It was a short lived tantrum, all is well. Thanks for your words, and pardon the harshness of mine.

Best Regards,

Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2004, 02:55 PM   #93
Magma
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 168
Offline
Ron & Chris -

The difference is that while we all can and *do* live in a factual world (knowing this and that, and able to quantify and qualify, understanding that the belt-washing and belt-off-the-floor tradition may be more recent creations), while we all can and do experience and draw meaning out of facts, we can also take great meaning, lesson, and beauty out of metaphor and symbol.

We do not all do that, as you have said, but perhaps that is the source of the condescension you think you hear... it is not condescension but a simple statement of fact: if we all live in a factual world, yet some of us also appreciate and learn from metaphor, is that not more than facts alone?

Peace.

Tim
It's a sad irony: In U's satori, he forgot every technique he ever knew; since then, generations of doka have spent their whole careers trying to remember.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2004, 03:12 PM   #94
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Quote:
yet some of us also appreciate and learn from metaphor, is that not more than facts alone?
I think the misunderstanding is the belief that folks like Chris and I do not 'appreciate and learn from metaphor'.

As an example, check out the following link:

http://www.netaxs.com/people/kinokawa/kingdom.html

Best,

Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2004, 04:46 AM   #95
bogglefreak20
Dojo: Ki dojo
Location: Ljubljana
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 102
Slovenia
Offline
Quote:
Guy Weeks (GLWeeks) wrote:
Hehehe... In my dojo, we all are a white belt until Shodan. We don't wash our belts and we joke about our belts turning black.
We are also all white-belt until shodan.

We wash our belts with our gi.

We don't joke. Ever.

(just kidding)

I wouldn't worry about the belt shrinking. I wash it with my gi every time. The gi didn't shrink at all (though I actually hoped it would, because it's a bit too big for me) and neither did the belt.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2004, 07:07 AM   #96
Magma
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 168
Offline
Ron -

That statement (re: learning from metaphor) comes simply from what I have read here. That though I have tried to explain the value of the metaphor of a belt ('explaining a metaphor'... an oxymoron, I know), it is not the interpretation but the historical veracity of the tradition that is challenged or attacked.

The value is in the metaphor - regardless of challenge of age, source, or anachronism - if the person is willing to engage it. There is no either-or about debunking it and learning from it. We can do both: I accept that the tradition may be more recently contrived, but I also accept that it has value.

Tim
It's a sad irony: In U's satori, he forgot every technique he ever knew; since then, generations of doka have spent their whole careers trying to remember.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2004, 09:56 AM   #97
Qatana
 
Qatana's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Petaluma, Petaluma,CA
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 834
Offline
And can you accept that for _some_ people, a belt is just a belt?

Q
http://www.aikidopetaluma.com/
www.knot-working.com

"It is not wise to be incautious when confronting a little smiling bald man"'- Rule #1
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2004, 11:05 AM   #98
Hanna B
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 647
Sweden
Offline
Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote:
Realize the post was in humor, but for the sake of those who may be gullible: home freezers do NOT kill bacteria.
Not?

I accidently put a vial of pretty expensive lab bacteria in the freezer. They died.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2004, 12:54 PM   #99
Chris Li
 
Chris Li's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Sangenkai
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,306
United_States
Offline
Quote:
Tim Rohr (Magma) wrote:
Ron -

That statement (re: learning from metaphor) comes simply from what I have read here. That though I have tried to explain the value of the metaphor of a belt ('explaining a metaphor'... an oxymoron, I know), it is not the interpretation but the historical veracity of the tradition that is challenged or attacked.

The value is in the metaphor - regardless of challenge of age, source, or anachronism - if the person is willing to engage it. There is no either-or about debunking it and learning from it. We can do both: I accept that the tradition may be more recently contrived, but I also accept that it has value.
I'm sure that everybody understood the metaphor, it's not that hard, really. So what's the point - because it's a metaphor it must be profound?

What most people seem to have had a hard time accepting is your apparent insistence that if we don't recognize that particular metaphor as valuable than we are therefore somehow deficient in our Aikido practice. It may have value for you, and that's fine, but that doesn't mean that it necessarily has value for anybody else, or ought to dictate their actions.

As to "debunking", one of the first posts in the thread (long before the "metaphor" thing came up) brought up the historical question, so I would say that such a discussion is entirely appropriate.

Best,

Chris

  Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2004, 08:09 PM   #100
PeterR
 
PeterR's Avatar
Dojo: Shodokan Honbu (Osaka)
Location: Himeji, Japan
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,319
Japan
Offline
Of course that deep pool can be obscured by all those metaphors.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
funny grading moments jimmy2006 Testing 28 04-16-2007 01:32 PM
Brawling with a friend Luc X Saroufim General 227 07-17-2006 08:33 PM
My answer to a very good question: Charlie General 1 08-02-2005 08:10 AM
Article: Thoughts on Bugei Studies by Karl Friday AikiWeb System Training 28 04-27-2002 06:21 PM
Question about clothing Shouri (Steve) General 3 07-26-2000 10:44 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:59 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2018 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2018 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate