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Old 01-13-2011, 04:29 PM   #76
Chris Li
 
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Re: Ki Exercise Exchange

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
We have a dojo right at our house. I thought about coming out your way...but I am 53 and want to keep training until I am least ninety...I wasn't sure what I would be walking into.
mary
We had two women a fair bit older than that when Dan was in Hawaii - and they had a great time!

Best,

Chris

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Old 01-13-2011, 04:47 PM   #77
Ketsan
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Re: Ki Exercise Exchange

Quote:
Robert John wrote: View Post
I'm surprised no one brought this up, and while I don't necessarily do AIkido, the basic foundation should be the same.

While keeping one point/pressure/ energy in the hara can reinforce good posture/structure, the reverse isn't necessarily true, ie, being structurally sound doesn't mean you have "one-point."

If anyone thinks I'm totally off base here, feel free to say so
How would you tell the difference between one point and good structure?
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Old 01-13-2011, 05:00 PM   #78
DH
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Re: Ki Exercise Exchange

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote: View Post
How would you tell the difference between one point and good structure?
You can be successfully moving from the center but your conditioning is not yet fully developed. One way I show this is to have people push on me and i turn into jello man yet they can't move me...then I start to walk through them without tossing them to show no power out...then start to bounce them all over the place or draw them in. It is the level of conditioning between tanden and the rest of the body, and how to fill it and drain it, what pulls what, what pushes what, that determines good internal power. Anywhere in there you can see people doing a good job of trying and...
Their hips are tight and they lose connection
Shoulders are tight they separate from the body under stress
Scapulars separate from the body....phht there goes the power
Body breaks between sternum and center...phht...
They move and their weight goes on to one foot before it shifts to the other ...loss of power and easier to throw them'
They move...from...their hips generating power there. Easy to read easier to throw them too.

HOW...you use that structure is where you get into aiki. And there are some complex and wonderful ways to do that that in and of themselves can truly be vexing.
Cheers
Dan
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Old 01-13-2011, 05:27 PM   #79
Upyu
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Re: Ki Exercise Exchange

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
No Robert. I won't...we both know what good posture is. I won't have you tell me again that I just don't get it and you do. I understand just fine. I am not trying to compete with you...I started a thead for sharing not tearing apart.
My process may be different from yours. It doesn't make your process better...just different.
Mary
Actually Mary, I really did want to make sure what your views were on the matter. Not to put you down, but to disagree if it there was something "to" disagree on.
I'd be the first to admit i confused what I perceived to be "good posture" to equate to IS, and I think it can be potentially misleading for the many beginners out there.

Let me rephrase then, what I wanted to ask is, could you have "good posture" whilst being bent over backwards? That to me, would clarify where you're coming from,

Scouts honor i won't put you down
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Old 01-13-2011, 05:40 PM   #80
thisisnotreal
 
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Re: Ki Exercise Exchange

Consider: posture vs. rules of the road (as I've heard it put)

posture to this lady is different compared to 'good posture' (which are 'rules', in fact) to this martial art.
(jump down to 'seven key point', and read until 'ten eyes')

i don't think this stuff is obvious.

and...what are the 'rules' for aikido, anyway..
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Old 01-13-2011, 06:55 PM   #81
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: Ki Exercise Exchange

"Let me rephrase then, what I wanted to ask is, could you have "good posture" whilst being bent over backwards? That to me, would clarify where you're coming from, "

It would depend on how my posture was...(I'm not trying to be difficult)
I have external posture and internal posture. My posture can be excellant in a clumsy position and can be off when it looks perfect. Do you know what I am talking about?
Mary
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Old 01-13-2011, 06:59 PM   #82
Thomas Campbell
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Re: Ki Exercise Exchange

Quote:
Josh Philipson wrote: View Post
Consider: posture vs. rules of the road (as I've heard it put)

posture to this lady is different compared to 'good posture' (which are 'rules', in fact) to this martial art.
(jump down to 'seven key point', and read until 'ten eyes')

i don't think this stuff is obvious.

and...what are the 'rules' for aikido, anyway..


This is Dan in the woods of New England before he took up TSKSR.



This is David Orange having breakfast.



This is inspiration to suck in my qi belly, tuck in my chin a bit and float my head, and let my scapulae softly slide down and towards each other.



I don't know what the "rules of the road" are for aikido, but I strongly suggest looking at video clips of Derek's teacher from the point of view of posture in motion before reifying the "Seven Key Points" from that site. As stated, whether because of the translation or because of the lack of people's familiarity with the context of Xinyi Liuhe Quan teaching, the points may not accurate for Chinese internal martial arts. Two that are often misunderstood are the directives to "depress" or "hollow" the chest and "round" the shoulders/back (i.e., hanxiong ba bei). The points are probably better understood as partial statements of dynamic relationships between head, shoulders . . . and the rest of an internally-connected body.

Another branch of Xinyi Liuhe Quan states the points as follows:

There are a very strict set of principles that must be addressed from day one, they are as outlined in the Dai Xin Yi Quan quan pu.

Hu Bao Tau (Tiger Leopard Head)

Hou Bei (Monkey Back)

Ying Bang (Eagle Shoulders)

Han Xion (compress chest)

Gu Kua (sink hip)

Bao Jiang (wrap shoulder)

Wei Lu (tuck tailbone)

I will go over them very briefly and as my knowledge of these principles grows I will add information as time allows.

Hu Bao Tau (Tiger/Leopard Head). The reason the head is addressed in this way as when you are expanded or standing straight up in “squatting monkey” the chin is neutral or to be more correct is tucked in slightly, keeping the cervical vertebrae (neck) in alignment, just as a tigers head does not move around. The head should have the feeling of being suspended and the Bai Hui Shu (meeting of all the points) should feel as if hanging off a string.

The eyes in this position should focus on a distant point on the wall, straight in front of you, with the intention as neutral as possible.

The other aspect expressed is the (Bao) or the Leopard. This reflects a leopard tilting it’s head up and surveying for prey. In the “squatting monkey” this is expressed by tilting the chin up, while you are squatting.

The eyes in this position should now be looking up, due to the fact that when you squat you are still looking at the focal point you were focussing on when you were standing straight up.

Hou Bei (Monkey Back), this is something which is merely a consequence of other postural requirements held properly.

The upper back should have a natural curve in it, it should not be straight, even though the spine is in correct alignment and erect. This curve will usually only be present when the chest is in the right position.

Ying Bang (Eagle Shoulders), so called due to the Eagle dropping it’s wings. In Dai Xin Yi Quan this is achieved by keeping the elbows tucked in protecting the ribs and also due to the tight contracted position (shu) one seeks to achieve before delivery.

Han Xiong (compress the chest). This attribute is only really achieved when several postural requirements are held in check. The focus should not be on compressing the chest as this may cause unnecessary strain on the lungs or heart, so it should be subtle, though enough to be insubstantial (hollow).

Gu Kua (sinking the hip). The Kua or the hip should be soft and able to sink and relax, instead of being tight or restrictive, which shall hinder the low posture required.

Bao Jiang (wrap shoulders) This is called so by the shoulders squeezing together, which is evident in “dun hou shi”, but should also be present in all other Dai movements.

Wei Lu (tuck tailbone) Maybe one of the most obvious, but maybe overlooked or underestimated requirement is the tucking of the tailbone. Though simple in theory in practice is another thing all together, once you squat to the maximum, the buttocks will want to protrude easing the load off the legs. You need to roll the pelvis basin and tuck the tailbone as much as you can and more when you have control of that area.


http://daixinyi.blogspot.com/2008/09...ng-monkey.html

"Good posture" is definitely a good starting point for becoming aware of a balanced state while standing upright in the gravitational field . . . but it's just a starting point. Whether exercising for health or moving in a situation of physical conflict, the body is going to depart from finishing-school balance-the-book-on-top-of-the-head posture. What your body/mind can do away from that balanced state is one measure of your internal connection and strength-skill.

For example . . .

Last edited by Thomas Campbell : 01-13-2011 at 07:12 PM.
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Old 01-13-2011, 07:15 PM   #83
Andrew Macdonald
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Re: Ki Exercise Exchange

Hi Mary

Excellent question. I think these sort of exerices and practices are very important but seem to have been forgotten or at the very least not practiced by most aikido schools

My favoured exercise for this is the previously mentioned zhan zhuang or standing post. the most common of posture of this is the "hug the tree" posture i have also heard it reffered to as the three circles qigong posture however, the posture that you adopt is far less important than the way that you adopt it, I myself have seen around 11 different postures used and i read that in tradtional teachings there were more than 200!

so that taken in to account you could easliy use an aikido posture for the exercise. when i am doing my practice i settle intomy posture and make sure that i am as aligned as i can be, then relax, let a heaviness come over my body and use only as much muscle as i need to to not fall over. most importantly breath, I have heard mention of ki breathing in this thread but i am not too such what that breathing method is, depending a persons level of such exercises they usually begin with abdominal breath then move on to reverse breathing, reverse breathing in my humble opion in where all the good stuff is. most people try to hold the positon for anything up to 40 mins, but it need to be more than 10 to get into the groove.

after I became comfortable with this practce i continued on to 'xing zhuang' or moving post. to do this i kept my hands in the fixed postion but started to walk forward, keeping the relaxation and breathing focus, not tensing/using any muscles that i wasn;t using again i tried to do this for about 40 mins.

the boat rowing exercise in aikido is also a very good practice for this, if you do it for long enough and you pay attetion to you posture and breathing through out.

through all the exercsies I keep my intention on my dan tian, except the rowwing where it try to drive forward with my intention, the chinese classics say intention leads the qi and the qi leads the strength.

benefits i have got from these exercises:

improved power
improved foundation and structure
more focused mind
greater knowledge of my body
sensationof greater qi flow or atleast it flows better to where i want it

it is still quite early in the morning for me here, i hope that everything made sense and i didn't ramble too much
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Old 01-13-2011, 07:21 PM   #84
Ketsan
Dojo: Zanshin Kai
Location: Birmingham
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Re: Ki Exercise Exchange

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
You can be successfully moving from the center but your conditioning is not yet fully developed. One way I show this is to have people push on me and i turn into jello man yet they can't move me...then I start to walk through them without tossing them to show no power out...then start to bounce them all over the place or draw them in. It is the level of conditioning between tanden and the rest of the body, and how to fill it and drain it, what pulls what, what pushes what, that determines good internal power. Anywhere in there you can see people doing a good job of trying and...
Their hips are tight and they lose connection
Shoulders are tight they separate from the body under stress
Scapulars separate from the body....phht there goes the power
Body breaks between sternum and center...phht...
They move and their weight goes on to one foot before it shifts to the other ...loss of power and easier to throw them'
They move...from...their hips generating power there. Easy to read easier to throw them too.

HOW...you use that structure is where you get into aiki. And there are some complex and wonderful ways to do that that in and of themselves can truly be vexing.
Cheers
Dan
Nope, still perplexed. Thanks though.
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Old 01-13-2011, 07:23 PM   #85
Upyu
Dojo: Aunkai, Tokyo
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Join Date: Oct 2004
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Re: Ki Exercise Exchange

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
"Let me rephrase then, what I wanted to ask is, could you have "good posture" whilst being bent over backwards? That to me, would clarify where you're coming from, "

It would depend on how my posture was...(I'm not trying to be difficult)
I have external posture and internal posture. My posture can be excellant in a clumsy position and can be off when it looks perfect. Do you know what I am talking about?
Mary
Sure, I'd buy that. Then having "good posture" is more akin to having "good internal posture," with good external posture being a result?

Btw, I'm purposely throwing out what defines "good internal posture" for now, but my only point was to differentiate the two, so I'd be in agreement with the concept.
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Old 01-14-2011, 10:09 PM   #86
RonRagusa
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Re: Ki Exercise Exchange

Quote:
Robert John wrote: View Post
Sure, I'd buy that. Then having "good posture" is more akin to having "good internal posture," with good external posture being a result?
Internal posture and external posture reflect and reinforce one another. They are distinct by not separate in the same way that the two sides of a coin are distinct yet not separate. Good posture (in the combined sense) is a product of both good internal posture and good external posture.

Ron
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