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Old 05-22-2008, 04:22 AM   #76
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Gungrabs

Quote:
Philippe Willaume wrote: View Post
I agree with you on both accounts there.
as for you 15 yard question
my answer would be droping to one knee to the left or the right if possible forward as I deploy the weapon.
and as soon as i can, shoot with both eyes open (ie into the brown) and hoping for the best and for the gun I have to be autimatic (or at least semi auto) with a large clip.
and swearing to myself that i will not let that happen to me again should I survice that one?

phil
At the S/O training center in Orange County they use this scenario as your first evolution before the real scenarios just to get the desire to "trade bullets" out of you.

For years I traineda "drop and draw" ending up in a low kneel as my first shot was executed. Not real smart but it felt cool. A linear change of plane put my head right where most people are trained to aim, center mass.

When Iattended the Orange County S/O training, I broke to the right causing my opponent to twist left off his modified weaver. I did not get hit even though he used his whole magazine. I hit 80%.

I am still trying to evaluate the experience.
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Old 05-22-2008, 05:20 AM   #77
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Gungrabs

Chris, I don't think there are many good solutions or an ideal one.

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Old 05-22-2008, 05:44 AM   #78
philippe willaume
 
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Re: Gungrabs

Hello
@ Chris
Not being hit at all that is as good as it is going to be…

I think it really depend of the weapon that you are facing.
Personally I link shooting from a holstered position to a thrust.
So you need to get away from the front of your opponent.
I associate using weapons from port more like a rising cut, so one side is usually preferable to the other and it is worth making your self a smaller target (do to the inherent raising nature of moving from port position)
As well some weapons tend to be shouldered and some tend to be use from the hips or a drop position,
Some other tend to cover an area (shotgun or smg/ high cycle AR)
In such case dropping laying down may not be a bad idea (as going over the top style of not bad idea, I.e. get you of immediate trouble but put you in trouble for what ever comes immediately next.)
Basically I think moving away and reducing the target area is not bad default behaviour.

@kevin
I think Chris is talking about situation like being dragged to the ground type or facing an armed oppoenet or several opponent
It not so much how to make it good but more how to make it less worse..

One Ringeck to bring them all and in darkness bind them,
In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.
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Old 05-22-2008, 08:20 AM   #79
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Re: Gungrabs

Quote:
Chris Parkerson wrote: View Post
At the S/O training center in Orange County they use this scenario as your first evolution before the real scenarios just to get the desire to "trade bullets" out of you.

For years I traineda "drop and draw" ending up in a low kneel as my first shot was executed. Not real smart but it felt cool. A linear change of plane put my head right where most people are trained to aim, center mass.

When Iattended the Orange County S/O training, I broke to the right causing my opponent to twist left off his modified weaver. I did not get hit even though he used his whole magazine. I hit 80%.

I am still trying to evaluate the experience.
I'm in this camp as well - move and shoot - preferably utilizing a spiral , which has you being the worst kind of target (moving laterally) and the opponent being the best kind of target (relatively still or moving in a linear fashion toward you).

Here's that video Kevin mentioned:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cU_ynRjlMyw

d

David M. Valadez
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Old 05-22-2008, 10:02 AM   #80
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Re: Gungrabs

Quote:
David Valadez wrote: View Post
I'm in this camp as well - move and shoot - preferably utilizing a spiral , which has you being the worst kind of target (moving laterally) and the opponent being the best kind of target (relatively still or moving in a linear fashion toward you).
Yes. Folks that have been doing a lot of work in this area with Simunition rounds are finding that under the conditions Chris laid out, "positional dominance" means initially not taking a position at all. Lateral movement coupled with abrupt directional changes are what keeps the rounds from finding a home. Great for an open area, inside cluttered locations its a bit more problematic.

I have agree with Chris, taking a knee at 15 yards not only places your head where many people fire (in force on force (FoF) non lethal training ammunition (NLTA) training you will see even average-officer-trained shooters consistently shoot low - groin and leg hits are common), it limits your mobility.

Another common problem is people taking a knee to reload. This has been the prelude to so many "executions" I have seen or perpetrated in FoF training that I consider it a learning point. If you are mobile, moving off line of his weapon, and keep your head up while shooting and reloading your chances of avoiding taking hits are much better. When you capture an angle that he cannot engage from, or his weapon goes down, you can then transition to a direct "positional dominance" approach.
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Old 05-22-2008, 11:27 AM   #81
Bill Danosky
 
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Re: Gungrabs

That was a cool and illuminating video. Even though I have practiced several martial arts in my adult life I am finding myself to be more and more Aiki-centric.

Do you guys have anything like ushiro nage in your style? I noticed several times as the officer passes to the left and has the perpetrator's back to him, he could snatch his sholders, collar, etc. and pull him right to the ground. I use it all the time in jiyu waza and nobody sees it coming.
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Old 05-22-2008, 02:43 PM   #82
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Re: Gungrabs

I think in a fighting style you got to have a sense of having whatever works, as long as you find "what ever works" relative to what you are doing or needing at any given time. This is particularly true when you are training. So, if for a given situation a throw from the rear is what is needed, etc., then go for it.

One thing we do, however, is to place priority on utilizing our weapons. Under the conditions set up in the video, we would not look to throw, as we are looking to engage with our weapons.

In short, the main reason is because weapons are the great equalizer and provide much better "leverage" than any kind of armbar might - if you get my point. This priority sets up different issues, issues that one has to deal with tactically. Specifically, one has to know how to set his/her weapon to the conditions at hand, and one has to know how to set or reset those conditions at hand for one's weapon(s).

As an extension to that, when it comes to empty hand fighting, we sort of, generally, understand it in two ways: 1) your option to use empty hand fighting is relative to your decision that it will suffice fully. This most often has us choosing empty hand fighting when we outnumber the person, and/or when we know them not to be armed (after a search), and/or when we are somewhat controlling our environment, and/or when they are not aggressively resisting, etc., and 2) we utilize empty hand fighting as an element to achieve setting or reseting those conditions at hand for one's weapon(s). This is what one is seeing in the video. As a result, we would opt not for the throw, possibly risking a ground-fight, a weapons retention issues, or some other element of the usual quid-pro-quo stuff that comes up when you engage at close range, etc., to control the attacker. We are, under these conditions, looking to arrest the person by putting him in a tactical disadvantage in terms of position before we commit to engaging him at close range with empty hands (e.g. arrest). We are opting to use weapons to achieve that. Once that is achieve, we have satisfied our first understanding of empty hand fighting.

David M. Valadez
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Old 05-22-2008, 06:45 PM   #83
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Gungrabs

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Chris, I don't think there are many good solutions or an ideal one.
I agree. That is why they use it. To teach that trading bullets is not what police should do if at all possible.

But for bodyguards, this is also the normal scenario but make it 3-7 yards.

In fact, one executive protection school uses the following test as part of their shooting test.

The drill is the 1 on 3 and if you do everything right, ie get all your hits, no misses, change plane somewhere between shooting target 1 and 3(kneel) scan, reload, scan then it is an 80% score and the additional 20% comes from potential time. 4.2 seconds or less increases the bonus percentage. 3.00 seconds or less is a full 20% bonus or a 100% score if all other elements fall into place. Distance is 8 yards for the 1st two targets and the last one at 180-200 degrees is 10 yards. Target is the standard blue steel upper torso..

You can pass the school without passing the test, but you will not get an A1 rating.
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Old 05-22-2008, 06:57 PM   #84
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Gungrabs

Quote:
David Valadez wrote: View Post
I'm in this camp as well - move and shoot - preferably utilizing a spiral , which has you being the worst kind of target (moving laterally) and the opponent being the best kind of target (relatively still or moving in a linear fashion toward you).

Here's that video Kevin mentioned:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cU_ynRjlMyw

d
I saw this tape and responded to it when you first put it up on the thread a few months ago.

I think globally, Kevin's approach is right on for military and for certain high risk EP venues. The Israelis are reall buggers for this approach. In fact, Mexican teams also tend to love the idea of attacking the attacker and often hire Israelis to come and teach the skill sets.

In the U.S., we tend to follow the "cover and evacuate" model".

It is my opinion that the State Department in 2004 had a real eye opener in Iraq. Windows up and tight formations on the freeway was not aggressive enough. Windows cracked down with guns pointed out covering anyone who eyeballed you was the better bet in a war zone. A QRF vehicle that attacked the attacker was best practices.

Of course, the S. Africans were the most aggressive and mobile. Forget 360 coveraqge. All guns forward, the back seat shooter shootinf over the front seat shooter and "attack the attacker" with full force in one direction and let the others try and catch up.
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Old 05-22-2008, 08:26 PM   #85
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Re: Gungrabs

You mean some combo of shoot move communicate? Gee who'd da thunk! LOL

The feedback I got from some of the NGSF guys who went to OEF is that the police officers on the teams had to go through some remedial CQB because the tactical scenarios they were engaged in did not fit the training they recieved in L.E.

WIlliam Hazen
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Old 05-22-2008, 09:14 PM   #86
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Gungrabs

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William Hazen wrote: View Post
You mean some combo of shoot move communicate? Gee who'd da thunk! LOL

The feedback I got from some of the NGSF guys who went to OEF is that the police officers on the teams had to go through some remedial CQB because the tactical scenarios they were engaged in did not fit the training they recieved in L.E.

WIlliam Hazen
as someone said before, you do seem to hit the nail on the heady with pithy accuracy.

For me, my martial training tells me to split the opponent's mind. By stepping to the right, his structure is compromised as he tries to track me by twisting his shooting platform in contention with his "left lead" modified weaver.

Try shooting an "el presidente" from right to left as a right handed shooter. Your time will be slower and your hits on the 3rd target will be less accurate than if you shoot left to right.

IMO, the big win in traditional martial training is in learning strategy.
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Old 05-22-2008, 09:26 PM   #87
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Gungrabs

Mr. Hazen,

Police and SF, IMO are very different missions and require different strategy, tactics and techniques.
in fact, most police have never been trained in Executive Protection, but they get assigned to it all the time.

How many police have been trained to shoot 3 people (1shot, 1kill) on a 200 degree range in under 4.2 seconds.
how many are trained not to chase the perp?
Bill gates' pie in the face was a great example. Three pie attackers. No one secured the site before arrival. The BG takes out one pie perp pushing him toward a uniformed motorcycle cop. Gates was left exposed to the other attackers.

We do what we are trained to do.
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Old 05-22-2008, 09:35 PM   #88
Brion Toss
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Re: Gungrabs

Several things:
First, thanks to all of you for the fascinating details comprising the Way of the Gun. Next, I'm particularly surprised/pleased to see what a vivid energy metaphor guns provide, with the exaggerated linear power amplifying the significance of the subtler (i.e. slower, more complex) empty-hand strategies.
In a dojo context, I have found that, to paraphrase Dr. Johnson, the prospect of being shot focuses the mind wonderfully. I believe this is important inasmuch as any weapons practice can provide the participants the opportunity to learn to be centered in stressful situations. Tantos and bokkens are somehow not as psychologically compelling in this regard, even though they are meant to represent deadly weapons; perhaps it is an acculturated phenomenom, but people tend to have much stronger emotional reactions to having a pistol pointed at them, even if it is a bright blue one, made of rubber. Maybe it's a matter of too many movies, but it makes a difference. So if we hope to help people polish their spirits, in addition to teaching them some, well, fairly-unlikely-to-succeed techniques, guns can provide a way.
Granted, one can all too easily become complacent, lose the sense of reality, of immediate, mortal danger that the practice gun represents. To prevent that, I find it helpful to treat our rubber guns with the same exaggerated care with which one would treat a real gun, starting with which way they are pointing when you bow in, whether or not your finger is on the trigger, whether the safety is off, etc. The idea is to help bring the student and the instructor to a state that at least vaguely approximates the real thing.
Which brings up the question of what the real thing feels like. I had a gun pointed at me, briefly, by a very drunk, angry person, a long time ago, and I hold on to that memory, and how it felt. But I don't think that someone needs an experience like that in order to teach or train effectively. It seems far less important, for instance, than having a working knowledge of the mechanics of actual guns. Helps to have fired some, and to have seen their effects. What do you all think?
Finally, as I think many of the posts above make abundantly clear, the thread title is a serious misnomer; the last thing you want to do is to grab at a gun.
Yours,
Brion

Regards,

Brion Toss
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Old 05-22-2008, 09:59 PM   #89
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Gungrabs

Mr. Toss,

Traditional Budo included horses, archery, shuriken and shaken as well as tanto, katana, hojo, and naginata.

IMO modern budo should include tactical driving, pistol, rifle, shotgun, knives, clubs and long blades; as well as empty hand.

The more realistic you make it, the better.
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Old 05-22-2008, 10:11 PM   #90
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Re: Gungrabs

Quote:
Chris Parkerson wrote: View Post
We do what we are trained to do.
Preaching to the choir ma man Chris...Unless you train specfically in gun take away scenarios really bad things may happen if you try to "wing" it...

I spent years doing EP and Military Stuff. It is a perishible skillset and I think for most of the folks here the "Please do not try this at home or the Dojo without the benefit of an experianced and skilled instructor." caveat may apply... With the exception of James Williams ( Who has worked with some legendary Real Deals) and a few Systema Guys (All Spetsnatz Vets) I know of no Aikido Instructor worth his salt in gun take aways including me.

It be foolish of me to think that I can "grow" this skillset without inviting outside real expertise...

William Hazen
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Old 05-23-2008, 07:02 AM   #91
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Re: Gungrabs

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
The guy that is the fastest draw or is the best shot wins.

at 15 Yards in the open, with no Cover, (concealment doesn't matter at that point) I would be drawing, shooting, and continuing to move forward...closing distance until he down.

What you also have to dissect, is what led to the 15 yard showdown?

If I were assaulting or conducting a room clearing, weapon drawn, I am not going to slow down but continue to press into the fight until I achieve dominance.

Stopping allows him to have time to gain Cover or to fix me, then I or my guys have to "start over" and regain what we started. Translated, "more guys hurt just to get back to where you were!"

I am trying to think of a situation in which I would be in a "high noon" situation in which we both had equal knowledge of what the other was about to do. I can't.
Here's one I use as a teaching aid. I was going to post it before, but forgot:

http://www2.indystar.com/articles/9/...-8689-228.html
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Old 05-23-2008, 07:07 AM   #92
KIT
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Re: Gungrabs

Here is another very good one, with post incident photos. Warning, if you are weak of stomach this isn't for you:

http://www.masscops.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43551
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Old 05-23-2008, 07:29 AM   #93
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Re: Gungrabs

Which brings me to my last point. One that refers to polishing the mind, training the body, preparing yourself for the point when, yes, you have reached the point of "the last thing you want to do" and you believe he will shoot you, your family, or someone else if you do not act...

Don't assume you will die. In so doing, you are training yourself to do just that. Recognize the potential for death is certainly there, but do not go into such a fight thinking "I hope I don't get shot and die," go in with a sense of righteous indignation that someone would threaten you with a gun!

As many of you know, in July of last year I was shot through the chest with a .45. It is, miraculously, the only bullet of the many that were fired directly at me and some others through walls, a door and face to face at a distance of a few feet. I cannot go into details of the incident as the case has not been tried, but I feel safe in telling you about my injury and the aftermath.

The round missed the majorly important vitals (to include a full tac vest! ) by an inch or two. If those had been hit, I might be dead. Instead, I got a shattered rib, a collapsed lung, and a bullet go almost all the way through and lodged in my back.

My experience of this hit was that it was on the vest. I continued with the mission for a few moments longer, stepped out of the room in which the firefight happened, and then had the impression that the wind was knocked out of me. I felt that I needed a moment to catch my breath, and I even told the medics to leave me there as I just needed a second to rest. They of course pulled me out, and pulled off my gear, and I started spitting blood which made me realize I was not, in fact, hit on the vest.

Of course I considered the possibility that I might not "make it." But I never dwelled on it or took it seriously because I knew I would. Not knowing the extent of my injury, I based that on my training, the "polishing of spirit" that occurs and the transcendance of, not acceptance of, the thought of death.

Accepting death is never okay. Accepting the thought of it and moving beyond it to matters at hand, is.

I say this because, in the officer survival and tactical studies that I have made central to my career, people with far worse injuries than mine have stayed in the fight, prevailed, rehabbed, and returned to work. Their rehab is often much more rapid that expected (as mine was), I think because of their mindset from the beginning.

Then again, there are people with much less serious injuries that have died. People with minor or even superficial injuries that have "given themselves up for dead," or reacted with such a state of sheer fear and panic that the only reason their assailants did not finish them off was because the assailants chose not to, not because of any action on the part of the victim.

Handgun rounds are notoriously weak. Many, many people survive multiple hits and keep right on trucking. If the bad guys can do that - SO CAN YOU!

I do not mean to minimize the potential for death in facing a gun or even being shot. By all means if you think all he wants is your money, give it to him and don't risk it. Some of us work in professions where there is the possibility we may have to run down the barrel of gun, we accept that responsibility (or should) and prepare for it (or should.)

But if you have to act, don't assume that because you may get shot that its "game over." Don't give up and go fetal and say "Okay, this is it." If you can think "That bastard just shot me!" then you are still able to stay in the fight, and that is the mindset that will carry you back to your loved ones.
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Old 05-23-2008, 07:37 AM   #94
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Re: Gungrabs

Another story:

I spoke with another officer recently shot in the line of duty. He was struck with two rounds from a completely concealed suspect during a track with a dog.

The first round tore through his right bicep and exited the elbow, in this case incapacitating his right arm. He did not have his weapon out, and was thus now unable to draw it.

The second entered his right hip, went up through his liver, diaphragm, lung, and broke some ribs on its way out, where it lodged between his chest and his protective vest.

This officer went down. A second officer ended the threat, but since they could not see the suspect, did not know it and still had to treat the situation tactically.

This officer told me that as he lay on the ground, looking up at a gray and overcast sky, he told himself "This is it. This is how I am going to die, this is where." He said that as he looked up into nothing but a featureless expanse of light gray, the world started to collapse in on him, his vision clouded over and began to come to a pin point. He started to pray.....

And then he stopped himself. He said to himself "WTF am I doing? People that are dying pray. I am not dying here!"

He then was able to assist in some way with his own rescue.

If any of you ever get hit, never give up. Do not be willing to die and odds are strong that you won't.
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Old 05-23-2008, 07:58 AM   #95
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Gungrabs

Inspiring Kit. Thanks for those posts.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 05-23-2008, 10:01 AM   #96
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Gungrabs

Kit ,

Thanks
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Old 05-23-2008, 10:58 AM   #97
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Re: Gungrabs

Quote:
Kit Leblanc wrote: View Post
Here's one I use as a teaching aid. I was going to post it before, but forgot:

http://www2.indystar.com/articles/9/...-8689-228.html
Good article Kit,

This sums it up:

Quote:
The 41-year-old SWAT team member, in his first public comments since the shootings, declined to detail the last moment except to say: "I closed the distance and assaulted his position and terminated the incident."

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Old 05-23-2008, 11:06 AM   #98
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Gungrabs

Thanks for sharing your story with us Kit.

One of my soldiers a year ago was hit by a 7.62 that went underneath his vest. He lost half a lung and it perforated his heart. He drove on and actually was doing first aid to another that didn't make it. His mentality parallelled yours, he never thought about the fact that he might die, he did what he was supposed to do and just kept going.

Thanks again for sharing this.

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Old 05-23-2008, 01:15 PM   #99
KIT
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Re: Gungrabs

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Thanks for sharing your story with us Kit.

One of my soldiers a year ago was hit by a 7.62 that went underneath his vest. He lost half a lung and it perforated his heart. He drove on and actually was doing first aid to another that didn't make it. His mentality parallelled yours, he never thought about the fact that he might die, he did what he was supposed to do and just kept going.

Thanks again for sharing this.
Its a double-edged sword, though.

We need to always be prepared for our assailants having the same mindset and capabilities.

It further puts the lie to some of what martial arts has codified in its practice, or the mentality of its practitioners, as "fight ending" moves, and refutes ideas about "pressure point fighting" and "bio-mechanical cutting."

Good one, Kevin, thanks for sharing it.

I always sought out examples like those above to inspire me, meditate upon, inform my training, and pass along to others - and now I know that kind of mental training - in conjunction with proper physical "combat conditioning," works!
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Old 05-23-2008, 02:13 PM   #100
Aikibu
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Re: Gungrabs

Quote:
Kit Leblanc wrote: View Post
Its a double-edged sword, though.

We need to always be prepared for our assailants having the same mindset and capabilities.

It further puts the lie to some of what martial arts has codified in its practice, or the mentality of its practitioners, as "fight ending" moves, and refutes ideas about "pressure point fighting" and "bio-mechanical cutting."

Good one, Kevin, thanks for sharing it.

I always sought out examples like those above to inspire me, meditate upon, inform my training, and pass along to others - and now I know that kind of mental training - in conjunction with proper physical "combat conditioning," works!
North Hollywood 1998

What a day that was...Reminds me why your words ring so true. I had a buddy there his mindset was the same as your post, and I think it's one of the reasons he survived. God Bless him and all the L.A.P.D. folks there that day.

William Hazen
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