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Old 03-15-2007, 12:24 PM   #76
Talon
 
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Re: Getting very discouraged, need your help.

I could not even dream of ever reaching Sensei Phong's level and at my current level, I would first worry about myself not getting hurt during the attack and would think of the attacker later (in a real life situation). The "ethical" no pian to the attacker "true Aikido" will work perhaps when someone has the skills to do this. Right now I don't.... I personally like to see that the lock works so if someone gets me in Hijime, katagateme, kote mawashi etc... I want to feel the lock and a bit of pain or discomfort. Otherwise I'd really have my doubts about myself and the people that I practice with at my dojo. The "Not hurt" attacker is perhaps a good thing to shoot for but not at my current skill level.

Also I think that the hurting of attacker is subjective and perhaps missunderstood by some. In the past, I believe maiming and killing someone was considered hurting them this was the aim of some systems like hardcore jujitsu. Not hurting the attacker did not mean that he or she should not feel temporary discomfort or pain. This in my humble oppinion is a missunderstanding by some Aikido folks. Hurting an attacker to me means knocking his teeth out, braking one of his limbs, maiming him for life. Causing a lock that temporarily causes him discomfort or pain in my oppinion is still NOT hurting the attacker.

But what do I know? I've only been training 4+ years and am a Kyu3 at the moment. Perhaps others have an oppinion on this.
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Old 03-18-2007, 03:35 AM   #77
Edwin Neal
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Re: Getting very discouraged, need your help.

unsure if your training prepares you for self defense? get some of your training partners to "throw down" on you... set up a self defense scenario where you don't know whats gonna happen... but remember "aliveness" does not necessarily mean 100% resistance... even thornton says that is also a wrong view... you must balance between learning form or technique and increasing resistance... most aikido is done by most people for fun with some incidental and small self defense benefit... if you want to focus on that aspect you have to train that way, and i believe in cross training since most aikidoka have no idea how to punch or kick learning how it is really done will only help you do it and defend against it... one can talk forever about water but your mouth will not get wet... good luck

Edwin Neal


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Old 03-18-2007, 03:52 PM   #78
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Re: Getting very discouraged, need your help.

We are starting to do this type of training recently. Slowly upping the randmness and resistance.
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Old 03-22-2007, 05:48 PM   #79
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Re: Getting very discouraged, need your help.

Martial effectiveness of Aikido seems a common debate in Forums, and the strongest critics are students themselves. You must always question your art, your style, your sensei, other arts and most of all yourself. There are too many robots who blindly follow their leader so as not to offend sensei or training partners. Those people will never grow. Please keep faith in Aikido, but feel free to look around. All the great martial artists were multi styled which is often forgotten. Look at Ueshiba!. When you return to Ai' you will find new angles to your training and be better for it. Keep lookin!.
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Old 03-25-2007, 11:05 AM   #80
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Re: Getting very discouraged, need your help.

Don't Quit, (that is if you ever really started aikido).

Aikido isn't self-defense. It was born of the battlefield, an area of engagement that is nothing like brawling or sport. In sports, you're not going to get killed. On the battlefield you need 360 degree awareness. Blah,blah,blah,centuries of discussion,blah,blah,blah.bring us back to today.

Aikido is Aikido. Get to know it. Just because some people don't like your girlfriend doesn't mean she isn't the bomb. Get to know her. Bring out her beauty. Aprroach the relationship with respect, mystery, awe, wonder, willingness. See how the relationship goes after that. Is she still an unpopular guest at your 'friends' house? What did she ever do to them? Why are they so threatened by her? How are you treating her? Do you bring your best completely every time you see each other. Can you bring your true feelings to her? Can you grow in your life with her at your side? Does she help you when you need truth and support. Is she strong? Is she beautiful? Does your mother approve?Do you still want to break up? Are you prepared to receive her fully?
How are your friends relationships with their 'girlfriends'. Are they ready for marriage? Keep the faith. Relationships are hard. I think you get my point.

"Aikido is Love"- Morihei Ueshiba
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Old 03-25-2007, 11:35 AM   #81
Edwin Neal
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Re: Getting very discouraged, need your help.

great post Jennifer... aikido is yours... what you make of it is up to you... you bear that burden not your sensei or your dojo...

Edwin Neal


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Old 03-25-2007, 06:33 PM   #82
mwible
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Re: Getting very discouraged, need your help.

ok, well ill just start out by saying there are like a million different styles of aikido, so mine is probably different than yours, but i think the same underlying principles are the same.
other than that, i am a 2nd dan in taekwondo, and when i was still a 1st dan i started taking aikido, after a few months training in aikido, i noticed a definite increase in balance and just the flowing of my techniques, not just in aikido, but whenever i executed any number of kicks or during sparring. and now after i have gotten my bluebelt in aikido, my sensei in taekwondo has noticed (so he tells me) a dramatic increase in my fighting abilitys. and its not just him, i have sparred with some fellow taekwondoka and also noticed a definite increase in my fighting. not to mention (im not bragging, i thought id just give you an example of the increase in my technique) i have beaten a fellow 1st dan taekwondoka with one hand in a sparring match(no kicks) a feet which i was not previously able to accomplish. i am very sure that aikido is the cause of this, not just the increase in training between colored belts and after 1st dan. i would use aikido on the street maybe along with a kick or punch as utemi, gladly. you just have to be confident in your abilitys, and dont think about it so much, just DO. i hope this has helped atleast somewhat. my apologys if i was just rambling.
-in aiki-
-morgan
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Old 03-25-2007, 10:31 PM   #83
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Re: Getting very discouraged, need your help.

Morgan, your comment rings home for me, as well. After many years in TKD, I came to Aikido, and almost immediately noticed an improvement in stances and hip movement. It made much sense to me, although I must confess that it took me a while to overcome the TKD mindset and the desire to beat up on people in Aikido class (at least, I think I'm over that now...).
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Old 03-25-2007, 10:46 PM   #84
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Re: Getting very discouraged, need your help.

Doesn't the name of the forum 'Bullshido' imply that it is full of bull****?

David

Trust only movement. Life happens at the level of events not of words. Trust movement. --Alfred Adler
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Old 03-26-2007, 09:45 AM   #85
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Re: Getting very discouraged, need your help.

It's time for the USAF to endorse or even set policy for mixing of the martial arts. The cultural, spiritual aikido is growing increasingly annoying by many. Some of us want to concentrate more on self defense and less on culture and spiritual concepts.

Martial evolution is essential to insure that we exhaust the effectiveness of self defense. The open minded mentality will ensure that this is carried out. Great attention is needed to modifying and introduce new techniques for countering an attack. This just one small example.

Organizations such as Real Aikido should be embraced for taking the core concepts of Aikido and mixing them with Judo and Jujitsu. Yes there are effective concepts in aikido as it is. The effectiveness has not been exhausted and it's not addressing the growing challenges to modern aggression, the changing world we live in.

I would continue to practice aikido and mix it with Judo or BJJ, as I plan to do. I want a well rounded set of defense application/methodology. This can only be obtained through an open minded approach.

Last edited by salim : 03-26-2007 at 09:50 AM.
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Old 03-26-2007, 10:21 AM   #86
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Re: Getting very discouraged, need your help.

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Doesn't the name of the forum 'Bullshido' imply that it is full of bull****?

David
Actually the whole idea of "bullshido" is to expose the bull in martial arts and Aikido comes up a lot on that site. Of course the majority of those people were never really exposed to Aikido and never experienced it first hand.
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Old 03-26-2007, 11:14 AM   #87
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Re: Getting very discouraged, need your help.

The feeling of discouragement is natural when you haven't explored other martial techniques to add to your repertoire. Let's not forget the lessons of Bruce Lee and his research into the science of fighting. Constant, habitual, exhaustive application of researching and applying effective technique is the core to great self defense.

There is some much we can gain by adding to our great martial art, Aikido. Using the core of Aikido and mixing the art with BJJ or Judo is a nice compliment of one another. It's time for the American Aikidoist to change our mentality of self defense. Cultural, Spiritual Aikido is not for those want self defense.
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Old 03-26-2007, 11:48 AM   #88
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Re: Getting very discouraged, need your help.

Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
It's time for the American Aikidoist to change our mentality of self defense. Cultural, Spiritual Aikido is not for those want self defense.
Okay, I'm going to challenge you to defend this position as I believe it's just wrong, especially the last sentence.

I think the conflict between the spirituality of Aikido and the self-defense applications are an invention of those who'd like to turn to jiu-jitsu as a better approach and want to justify their attitude.

Part of the point of an art like Aikido is to consider our responsibilities in defending ourselves as part of our training. I guarantee there will be disagreement among Aikidoists about those responsibilities, but not considering what they should be seems like an abandonment of Aikido to me.

I once quoted someone who said that "Aikido with the wrong attitude is just bad jiu-jitsu" and was challenged with, "What is the right attitude?". It's a good question which I would not be able to answer. I think part of what's important is considering the question, though, and working out an answer for ourselves.

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Old 03-26-2007, 12:40 PM   #89
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Re: Getting very discouraged, need your help.

I think it's just wrong to reduce martial effectiveness to spiritual concepts and cultural etiquette. Let's stop playing games and give those who want value of what Aikido has to offer the opportunity.

Bruce Lee's, Tao of Jeet Kune Do should be in the library of all serious minded martial artist. Bruce did not bring a new style, but liberation of trained, mind controlling thought process. The idea is to explore the benefits of any art form.

If Aikido is our basis, mixed with Judo and BJJ, this affords a wonderful complementary of martial effectiveness. America is an aggressive society and peace can come from just walking away from an altercation as Bruce Lee has indicated, but there are time when we are cornered like a cat and the only result is defend yourself. Let's be real about the world in which we live in.

Last edited by salim : 03-26-2007 at 12:47 PM.
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Old 03-26-2007, 02:40 PM   #90
mwible
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Re: Getting very discouraged, need your help.

haha, yea, the need to fight is something that me and a karate guy in my aikido school have a hard time with. we just kinda throw stuff at eachother when no ones looking, and then go back to our aikido. :P
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Old 03-26-2007, 04:51 PM   #91
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Freaky! Re: Getting very discouraged, need your help.

Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
It's time for the USAF to endorse or even set policy for mixing of the martial arts. The cultural, spiritual aikido is growing increasingly annoying by many. Some of us want to concentrate more on self defense and less on culture and spiritual concepts.

Martial evolution is essential to insure that we exhaust the effectiveness of self defense. The open minded mentality will ensure that this is carried out. Great attention is needed to modifying and introduce new techniques for countering an attack. This just one small example.

Organizations such as Real Aikido should be embraced for taking the core concepts of Aikido and mixing them with Judo and Jujitsu. Yes there are effective concepts in aikido as it is. The effectiveness has not been exhausted and it's not addressing the growing challenges to modern aggression, the changing world we live in.

I would continue to practice aikido and mix it with Judo or BJJ, as I plan to do. I want a well rounded set of defense application/methodology. This can only be obtained through an open minded approach.
I would like to remind anyone reading this forum that mixing 'aikido' with judo or jujitsu(along with any other kick ass art japan had to offer) is not innovative; it is aikidos' past physical foundation. To belong to the dojo that O'Sensei began you needed a letter of introduction from your sensei( the one in the dojo of the other art you practiced) to be accepted into the tutelage of O'Sensei. To refute the degree of expertise that belonged to this era of training is to refute the power of almost any other dicipline of the time. This era gave rise to the realization that O'Sensei experienced as his inspiration for what we call 'aikido'. Tomiki began the Tomiki style after returning to Judo. Others did similar.
Keeping an open mind is really important. Not an open mind to certain things; an open mind to anything. Having the tool of good training makes us people who are unafraid of the opinions of others. Having singlemindedness in dicipline allows us to examine our own process in this evolution. Don't distract yourselves with worldly talk about fighting. Fighting is yesterday(remember Hiroshima? Nice technique, huh?). As practitioners of O'Senseis' inspiration we have no place in this trivial conversation except to live valorous lives in example. The way to this is through valorous training.

"AIKIDO IS NOT A METHOD FOR FIGHTING. IT IS A WAY TO UNITE THE WORLD AS ONE FAMILY."-some little japanese guy

Last edited by jennifer paige smith : 03-26-2007 at 04:55 PM.
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Old 03-26-2007, 05:08 PM   #92
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Re: Getting very discouraged, need your help.

Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
There is some much we can gain by adding to our great martial art, Aikido. Using the core of Aikido and mixing the art with BJJ or Judo is a nice compliment of one another. It's time for the American Aikidoist to change our mentality of self defense. Cultural, Spiritual Aikido is not for those want self defense.
Really. Isn't throwing all those things together simply a definition for mixed martial arts? I'm getting too damn old to mix it up on the ground with the young bucks who want to twist one into a pretzel. So what is wrong with evolving my aikido along defensive lines with a spiritual component. Do I want to compete in the octagon? Hell no! That does not mean that my training will not give me an edge and perhaps save my life if for some reason I am attacked. I'm not interested in training to beat people up or score wins in the octagon. That choice, however, does not mean that my path is any less valid.
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Old 03-26-2007, 09:04 PM   #93
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Re: Getting very discouraged, need your help.

well put jennifer smith. i couldnt agree more!!
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Old 03-26-2007, 09:34 PM   #94
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Re: Getting very discouraged, need your help.

Quote:
Paul Nowicki wrote: View Post
Actually the whole idea of "bullshido" is to expose the bull in martial arts and Aikido comes up a lot on that site. Of course the majority of those people were never really exposed to Aikido and never experienced it first hand.
All the more reason not to let Bullshido influence your thinking about Aikido.

Trust only movement. Life happens at the level of events not of words. Trust movement. --Alfred Adler
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Old 03-26-2007, 10:19 PM   #95
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Re: Getting very discouraged, need your help.

Jennifer Smith,

I think you missed my point about self defense. Self defense in itself does not imply fighting, nor was I implying refuting leadership. That's the problem, no independent thinking. Receiving permission to practice another martial form makes no sense. We're human beings, not programmable robots. The controlling, cult mindset scares the hell out of me! I don't like dictatorship martial art forms. If you step out of the country for just a second then your are suspect and subject gated to verbal imprisonment.

The dojo that I attend, definitely encourages exploring the world of martial arts from different perspectives. We're not into competition or beating up people. We're only interested in self protection, and protecting our love ones. The main objective is purely protection from harm, in it's various manifestations, so the competition crap is out for our dojo. We're too old as well, as stated earlier in the post by John Riggs.

George Ledyard, in his post, “The Future of Aikido”, bring some interesting points. He concentrates his commentary on the American Aikidoist in particular. He states that, “Aikido is an art going through a continuous identity crisis. This can be easily recognized when one pours over the contents of the various discussions in on-line forums. Aikido practitioners can’t seem to decide whether this is supposed to be a fighting style, whether it’s a deep spiritual practice, or if the whole things just a dance-like metaphor for a philosophy of conflict resolution.” This should tell us something about the changing mentality of the American Aikidoist.

We have to be fair in judgment and not aspect everyone to follow our form of Aikido. Our dojo respects those who want to practice spiritual and cultural aspects for the art. There is nothing wrong with this. It's very difficult in the same conversation to have the same group of Aikidoist to accept those who want more of the defense application of the art. This is a great injustice to Aikido and the psyche of martial arts in general.

We stand to see more splits and division from USAF if there is not a more multi-system approach of accepting others under one umbrella. We most banish the my way attitude. George Ledyard's commentary speaks volumes.

Jennifer Smith, the uniting the world as one can happen, if we learn to accept others ideas. We accept yours.
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Old 03-27-2007, 12:18 AM   #96
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Re: Getting very discouraged, need your help.

Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
The feeling of discouragement is natural when you haven't explored other martial techniques to add to your repertoire .....
I think the original poster spelled out why he was feeling dsicouraged pretty well, so there is no need to speculate or explain it.

Quote:

Let's not forget the lessons of Bruce Lee and his research into the science of fighting. Constant, habitual, exhaustive application of researching and applying effective technique is the core to great self defense.

There is some much we can gain by adding to our great martial art, Aikido. Using the core of Aikido and mixing the art with BJJ or Judo is a nice compliment of one another ....
Maybe. However, one could get that from crosstraining without having to "change" anything.

When I resumed studying Aikido in 2004, I had been doing Inosanto Kali since 1997, under Guro Kevin Seaman and Guro Andy Astle; I've continued with Guro Andy since 2003. The empty hand sections of Lacoste Insanto Kali already has kicking and punching combined with trapping and grappling; and the grappling seciton, Dumog, has many locks not unlike those in Aikido. As far as combining categories of techniques together, that's already been done, so I don't see the need for Aikido to do it.

Furthermore, I started Jun Fan Gung Fu/JKD last May, and Aikido is one of the arts Bruce Lee drew on! You want to see Aikido comibined with other things? Take a Jun Fan class.

Have you ever heard of anyone calling for Thai Boxing to be expanded by adding grappling to it? Neither have I, yet MMA people use Thai Boxing for their standup game. They draw on it for what they want without arguing that Tahi Boxing must be changed. In the same way, I don't see a problem with a martial artist using Aikido as source material without leaving it alone.

For myself, I'm not going to Aikido to see if they regurgitate what I'm learning in Kali or Jun Fan. The what's the point of doing something different?

Quote:
It's time for the American Aikidoist to change our mentality of self defense. Cultural, Spiritual Aikido is not for those want self defense.
And where are the people who get into the cultural and spiritual aspects supposed to go? Never mind that by design, Aikido is the most spiritual MA at the outset! If that's where it goes to town, why mess with it? You want to throw that stuff out and pile in Judo and BJJ, that's your busniess. But please leave everyone else alone.
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Old 03-27-2007, 07:37 AM   #97
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Re: Getting very discouraged, need your help.

Michael Gallagher,

I strongly suggest you read the commentary from George Ledyard's post, “The Future of Aikido”.

There is apparently a continuous identity crisis. The leadership of USAF is struggling with some issues with the right direction of the organization also. I suggest you read the writing on the wall. There are some that disagree with you. This is not about personal attacks, let's be fair here.
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Old 03-27-2007, 08:37 AM   #98
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Re: Getting very discouraged, need your help.

I really like the perspective that George Ledyard offeres. He seems to be very balanced in his understanding.

The post, “The Point of Aikido”, George Ledyard states, “In spreading so far so fast, it lost some of its Budo aspect and its technique became watered down through lack of understanding on the part of many of the teachers of the art. I have no quarrel with looking outside the art for what it has lost in terms of the technical aspect of the waza. But we do not have to look outside the art for its essence; that is right in front of us.”

This is a balanced guy, that's the point.
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Old 03-27-2007, 09:42 AM   #99
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Re: Getting very discouraged, need your help.

Quote:
John Riggs wrote: View Post
Really. Isn't throwing all those things together simply a definition for mixed martial arts? I'm getting too damn old to mix it up on the ground with the young bucks who want to twist one into a pretzel. So what is wrong with evolving my aikido along defensive lines with a spiritual component. Do I want to compete in the octagon? Hell no! That does not mean that my training will not give me an edge and perhaps save my life if for some reason I am attacked. I'm not interested in training to beat people up or score wins in the octagon. That choice, however, does not mean that my path is any less valid.
There is nothing wrong with it, as long as you are honest in what your goals are and how you are accomplishing your goals.

On a side note, but somewhat related. I finally got my wife to train with me in bjj. She tried aikido a few years back, injured herself learning to roll and didn't want to go back. Her main problem was that it wasn't focused enough on self defense for her. (Her main goals are fitness and self defense when she walks alone to her car at night after going out dancing with the girls.) She was hesitant to try bjj, but our coach started doing woman only primers with self defense oriented techniques as opposed to the sport oriented techniques we focus on a lot in the guy classes. She's now addicted to bjj. She loves it, she does the girls and the guys classes with her friend who also loves it. It helps her build confidence against the only attack she is likely to face, rape. Watching our coach teach the womans class shows a new side to bjj, similar to traditional jiujitsu, only mixed with much more alive drills then you would normally see. I can't wait to watch her start tapping out guys once she build a good base.

My point is that you have to find your own path. It might be aikido, it might not be. But if you have doubts, it might be good to take a class or two and find out. My wife tried aikido (although one could argue she did not give it enough of a try, only 3 months). She never fell in love with it. For those 3 months she went because I was going, but she wasn't clicking with it. She went to bjj because she wanted to help my coach fill his womans class up for its first class. She really didn't plan on staying in it and basically gave up on martial arts. But now she is in love with it and bugs me to help her train more then anyone else I know.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 03-27-2007, 10:03 AM   #100
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Re: Getting very discouraged, need your help.

Don Magee and his wife understand the word self defense!
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