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Old 12-21-2004, 11:05 AM   #751
Hogan
Join Date: Jul 2001
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote:
Lacking all recourse to debate his way from behind his strawman: "our hero" once again, resorts to his favorite weapon of choice: ad hominem.

Sorry to burst your bubble, John: but no one's "apologizing" for Jackson, Saddam, or Usama. Again I say: get a real argument.

Here: lemme break it down for ya, in simple arithmetic:

Wishing to understand one's foes (imagined dangerous or no)
Does not = Apologizing, for their actions

Gosh, I sure am glad we're in agreement about ignorance, being a deadly thing, eh, John?
Understanding one's enemy and making excuses for thier behavioe are two different things - but you don't seem to get it.

Apologist.
 
Old 12-21-2004, 11:06 AM   #752
Hogan
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Re: Anti-Americanism

deleted - duplicate post.
 
Old 12-21-2004, 11:09 AM   #753
Hogan
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Quote:
David Chalk wrote:
...Condemn Saddam for all the evil of his regime, including gassing a civilian population, because they were 'his enemy'. But don't claim they were 'his people'. It's like condemning GWB for bombing 'his people' in Iraq because he though some of them were his enemy. 3
Huh ?? Do you even know how to write a complete sentence ? The Kurds WERE his people, despite the Apologist Neil's attempts to think otherwise.

Quote:
Apologist
Wow, taking my quote and turing it against me ! How original !!!
 
Old 12-21-2004, 02:24 PM   #754
Neil Mick
Dojo: Aikido of Santa Cruz
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Quote:
John Hogan wrote:
Huh ?? Do you even know how to write a complete sentence ? The Kurds WERE his people, despite the Apologist Neil's attempts to think otherwise.
More inflammatory (as in: pointless, mindless, flaming) hot-air exhaled by "our hero."

Here, John: you seem to be in need of a sharp, objective, dose of reality. Allow me to pop that oversized flame-balloon, you're blowing:

Even whether or not Hussein even gassed the Kurds, is in dispute.

Did Saddam Hussein Gas His Own People?
Reality Checks Needed During War


Quote:
Two weeks later, the fog of war over Halabja thickened a little when the Star ran a Reuters story saying a United Nations team had examined Iraqi and Iranian civilians who had been victims of mustard gas and nerve gas.

"But the two-man team did not say how or by whom the weapons had been used," the Reuters story said.

It explained that Iraq and Iran were accusing each other of using poison gas in violation of the 1925 Geneva Protocol against chemical weapons.
Now, let's go verry slowwly about whom the Kurds are (since you seem stuck on the same record-groove), shall we?

Who Are the Kurds?

Quote:
A largely Sunni Muslim people with their own language and culture, most Kurds live in the generally contiguous areas of Turkey, Iraq, Iran, Armenia and Syria -- a mountainous region of southwest Asia generally known as Kurdistan ("Land of the Kurds").

During the early 20th century, Kurds began to consider the concept of nationalism, a notion introduced by the British amid the division of traditional Kurdistan among neighboring countries. The 1920 Treaty of Sevres, which created the modern states of Iraq, Syria and Kuwait, was to have included the possibility of a Kurdish state in the region. However, it was never implemented.

The Kurds received especially harsh treatment at the hands of the Turkish government, which tried to deprive them of Kurdish identity by designating them "Mountain Turks," outlawing their language and forbidding them to wear traditional Kurdish costumes in the cities. The government also encouraged the migration of Kurds to the cities to dilute the population in the uplands. Turkey continues its policy of not recognizing the Kurds as a minority group.

Despite a common goal of independent statehood, the 20 million or so Kurds in the various countries are hardly unified. From 1994-98, two Iraqi Kurd factions -- the Kurdistan Democratic Party, led by Massoud Barzani, and the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan, led by Jalal Talabani -- fought a bloody war for power over northern Iraq. In September 1998, the two sides agreed to a power-sharing arrangement.
So, are we clear, now? The Kurds are a minority spread across three countries with a common goal of independent statehood: each of whom have been mistreated by their host-country (I notice, incidentally: that you have said not one word about the brutal treatment of the Kurds, in Iran or Turkey..."Apologist!" )

Glad to have been of assistance, John: no thanks necessary. If you need any more applications of a sharp, logical fact inserted into your hot-air of invective and opinion: you go right ahead and drop me a line, OK?

Last edited by Neil Mick : 12-21-2004 at 02:31 PM.
 
Old 12-21-2004, 07:43 PM   #755
Neil Mick
Dojo: Aikido of Santa Cruz
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"The Fire This Time"

But, lest you rant that I'm some sort of "Hussein-Apologist:"

Quote:
There is about Saddam Hussein a peculiar ruthlessness, an almost calculated cruelty, perhaps even an interest in pain. It wasn't enough to order the murder of his sons-in-law after their return from exile in Jordan. They had to be dragged away with meat hooks through their eyes. It wasn't enough to order the hanging of the Observer journalist Farzad Bazoft in 1990; Bazoft was to be left unaware of his fate until a British embassy official turned up at the Abu Ghorraib prison to say goodbye. At Abu Ghorraib, women prisoners are allowed a party the night before one of them is to be hanged. Women are dispatched on Thursdays. Families are asked to bring their own coffin when a relative has been executed.

And yet we loved him. In the days when Saddam clawed his way to power, personally shot members of his own cabinet, or used gas for the first time on his recalcitrant Kurds, we loved him. When he invaded Iran in 1980, we gave him Bailey bridges and Mirage jets and radio sets and poison gas - the Mirages from France, the poison gas, of course, from Germany - and US satellite reconnaissance pictures of the Iranian front lines. I once met the Cologne arms dealer who personally took the photos from Washington DC to Baghdad. The Russians poured in their new T-72 tanks. Saddam's war against Iran - the greatest mass killing in modern Middle Eastern history until the UN sanctions of the last decade - was designed to appeal to both Arabs and the West. For the Arabs who tamely poured their millions into his armoury, Kuwait among the most prominent, his Iraqi sons were wading through anharr al-damm - literally "rivers of blood" - to defend the al-bawwabah al-sharqiyah, the "Eastern Gateway" to the Arab world and Saudi Arabia.

Last edited by Neil Mick : 12-21-2004 at 07:51 PM.
 
Old 12-21-2004, 11:11 PM   #756
Neil Mick
Dojo: Aikido of Santa Cruz
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Quote:
John Hogan wrote:
Understanding one's enemy and making excuses for thier sp behavioe sp are two different things - but you don't seem to get it.

Apologist.
Understanding the complicated history of the "enemy," and (your attempt to use ad hominem, without basis or proof to the tune of) making excuses for their behavior are two different things - but you don't seem to get it.

Ad-homin-ist.

Last edited by Neil Mick : 12-21-2004 at 11:17 PM.
 
Old 12-22-2004, 07:20 AM   #757
Hogan
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote:
More inflammatory (as in: pointless, mindless, flaming) hot-air exhaled by "our hero."

Here, John: you seem to be in need of a sharp, objective, dose of reality. Allow me to pop that oversized flame-balloon, you're blowing:

Even whether or not Hussein even gassed the Kurds, is in dispute.

Did Saddam Hussein Gas His Own People?
Reality Checks Needed During War




Now, let's go verry slowwly about whom the Kurds are (since you seem stuck on the same record-groove), shall we?

Who Are the Kurds?



So, are we clear, now? The Kurds are a minority spread across three countries with a common goal of independent statehood: each of whom have been mistreated by their host-country (I notice, incidentally: that you have said not one word about the brutal treatment of the Kurds, in Iran or Turkey..."Apologist!" )

Glad to have been of assistance, John: no thanks necessary. If you need any more applications of a sharp, logical fact inserted into your hot-air of invective and opinion: you go right ahead and drop me a line, OK?
Oh thank you master, thank you for letting me see the LIGHT !

Please, you have your nose so far up Saddammy and Usammy asses you cannot see reality. Wake up.
 
Old 12-22-2004, 02:31 PM   #758
James Giles
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Quote:
John Hogan wrote:
Wake up.

http://www.apfn.org/apfn/WTC.htm
 
Old 12-22-2004, 03:27 PM   #759
James Giles
Dojo: North Florida Aikikai
Location: Tallahassee, Florida
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Re: Anti-Americanism

This ought to provoke some thought too about who the real "terrorists" are. Take the time to download the video clip of the plane flying into the second tower. Look at the rocket being fired into the building and coming out the window on the other side right before the plane makes impact. I didn't know commercial jets fired rockets!

http://www.serendipity.li/wot/aa11.html

Last edited by James Giles : 12-22-2004 at 03:30 PM.
 
Old 12-22-2004, 03:58 PM   #760
James Giles
Dojo: North Florida Aikikai
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Re: Anti-Americanism

This is even better. Consider for yourself what really hit the Pentagon on 9-11.

http://www.serendipity.li/wtc3.htm
 
Old 12-22-2004, 05:40 PM   #761
Hogan
Join Date: Jul 2001
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Quote:
James Giles wrote:
This is even better. Consider for yourself what really hit the Pentagon on 9-11.

http://www.serendipity.li/wtc3.htm

hahaha.. thanks, that was even better than that mike moore fiction...
 
Old 12-22-2004, 05:47 PM   #762
James Giles
Dojo: North Florida Aikikai
Location: Tallahassee, Florida
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Truth is always better than fiction....at least to me anyway.....

http://www.serendipity.li/wtc5.htm
 
Old 12-22-2004, 07:46 PM   #763
Neil Mick
Dojo: Aikido of Santa Cruz
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
Join Date: Jun 2002
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Dead Re: Anti-Americanism

Quote:
John Hogan wrote:
Oh thank you master, thank you for letting me see the LIGHT !

Please, you have your nose so far up Saddammy and Usammy asses you cannot see reality. Wake up.
Snore. Wake me when you come up with something of substance to discuss, instead of the next "no-I'm-not-yes-you-are" flame.

Till then...ta ta!
 
Old 12-23-2004, 09:05 AM   #764
Hogan
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote:
...Till then...ta ta!

You promised to put me on ignore before, but all you do is come back for more.....

Hypocrite... and an apologist... so sad.
 
Old 12-23-2004, 09:09 AM   #765
Taliesin
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 82
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Re: Anti-Americanism

OK Folk's before I disappear home until the New Year my last post of the year.

John

Whilst i appreciate you sharing your wealth of ignorance with us. I must point out that neither the Kurds themselves nor Saddam Hussein considered them to be 'his' people (neither did the UN when the UN established the no-fly zone in 1991).

I also point out that his regarding Kurds as aliens in his land was the motivation for his 'Arabisation' program (as reported in various US State Department Reports).

lastly I point out that it is a safe bet that I have met and dealt with far more Iraqi Kurds than you have.

Getting the facts clear in not being an apologist.
But assuming your opinions are irrefutable facts is being a moron.

Here's hoping for your enlightenment in the new year and my sincere wishes that your aikido is nowhere near as sloppy as your arguments.

Neil

Here's to a Merry Christmas and a happy new year. And thanks for the interesting information you have posted on this thread.
 
Old 12-23-2004, 06:45 PM   #766
Neil Mick
Dojo: Aikido of Santa Cruz
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Quote:
David Chalk wrote:
Getting the facts clear in not being an apologist.
But assuming your opinions are irrefutable facts is being a moron.

Here's hoping for your enlightenment in the new year and my sincere wishes that your aikido is nowhere near as sloppy as your arguments.
Ouch!

Quote:
Neil

Here's to a Merry Christmas and a happy new year. And thanks for the interesting information you have posted on this thread.
Thank you. Happy holidays to you too, David.

And, even to you, John. Hopelessly ignorant in the ways of the world that you are: you still deserve a pleasant holiday.

Peace!
 
Old 12-24-2004, 09:58 AM   #767
Hogan
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote:
.......

And, even to you, John. Hopelessly ignorant in the ways of the world that you are: you still deserve a pleasant holiday.

Peace!

You don't. Terrorists, dictators, enemies of the US ... and their supporters....deserve the hell they will receive.
 
Old 12-24-2004, 10:45 AM   #768
akiy
 
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Re: Anti-Americanism

Thread closed. Too many personal attacks.

-- Jun

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