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Old 05-23-2006, 09:37 AM   #51
Mato-san
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Re: Real aikido question

'Only' Tohei Sensei 10th dan, is this a myth, am I wrong? Also the validation as I heard or read is that he was ambushed by the founder himself in an almighty attack of the JO to be considered worthy of the highest rank awarded in Aikido. I may be wrong but please '10th dan'? Am I wrong?

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Old 05-23-2006, 10:19 AM   #52
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Re: Real aikido question

George regarding your post #48,

I agree with you 100%. What you said is so important to the understanding of Aikido. When I explained what you said to my 10 year old daughter who practices Aikido with me and my 16 year old son, she said, "It is like building something without reading the directions."
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Old 05-23-2006, 11:51 AM   #53
nmrmak
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Re: Real aikido question

Would it cause so much stirring if he named the art "Serbaido" or something like that, and not realni aikido?
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Old 05-23-2006, 11:44 PM   #54
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Re: Real aikido question

The foundation of Aikido is based on O'Sensei's martial arts training, O'
Sensei's religious/spiritual/philosophical beliefs and O'Sensei's real life experience. We cannot relive O'Sensei's life. But you can understand his life and beliefs by reading and studying. This will help you with your practice to know what his Aikido is and be the foundation for your Aikido.
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Old 05-24-2006, 08:55 AM   #55
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Real aikido question

Quote:
Nebojsa Mrmak wrote:
Would it cause so much stirring if he named the art "Serbaido" or something like that, and not realni aikido?
Why would that help? It would be just another guy with mid-level skills starting his own style because he wanted to bill himself as having high level skill.

This is THE most common ploy to avoid actually working ones way up some sort of legitimate promotional ladder. Just start your own style, make yourself a Grandmaster, Super Soke, 10 Dan and go to town. Convince your students that they are getting something they are not. It actually works quite well as most beginners can't tell what high level skill actually is anyway.

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Old 05-24-2006, 09:10 AM   #56
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Re: Real aikido question

Would you agree George if you seen some innovation in the style? Yes most beginners will see nothing but cool stuff! Point taken. How would you feel if Sensei had broken away from a huge organization and showed a huge amount of innovation in his application ,eg: Waza that he cannot even put a name to because it is so fresh. Or even if the Sensei refuses to put a name or label on his art, due to the respect of its roots, where does that put this Sensei? Not being assertive just fishing for opinion. And also at what level can a student recognise innovation?

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Old 05-24-2006, 12:28 PM   #57
nmrmak
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Re: Real aikido question

I just think the aikido population wouldn't be so negative towards "real aikido" if it didn't bear the name of aikido in itself. We would regard it just as an another style. I'm saying this because it's not very common to see friendship between people who do "traditional" and "real" aikido (in serbia, that's all people know about aikido; there's real and traditional to them).
My point is that we shouldn't really be obsessed with the question of real aikido. There may be very good real aikido students in the martial sense, just as there are good boxers or good aikidokas.

Quote:
Convince your students that they are getting something they are not.
What exactly are they not getting? They do learn what their sensei shows them, don't they? It's not like their sensei tells them "i will teach you aikido". No, he tells them "i'll teach you the first serbian martial art derived from aikido that works in a street fight". And if they are consistent and devoted enough, that's just what they get.
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Old 05-24-2006, 12:53 PM   #58
Robert Rumpf
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Re: Real aikido question

Quote:
Nebojsa Mrmak wrote:
No, he tells them "i'll teach you the first serbian martial art derived from aikido that works in a street fight".
Does Aikido not work in street fights?

What makes the martial art Serbian? Is there anything that is novel in his brand of the art that doesn't exist in mainstream Aikido? Is there some locally descended Serbian martial arts style that it incorporates, or something like that, or is this martial artist doing something unique and truly new and labeling that new content as Serbian?

When you say "the first serbian martial art derived from aikido" what does that mean? I'm not sure I saw any derivation or deviation from norms at all in the footage that I saw in that video. It seemed pretty much like vanilla Aikido. I realize that one video is not a fair judge of things... but that's all I have.

I'd say that the statement "the first serbian martial art derived from aikido" implies the inclusion of new local content, or that (more likely) the instructor is rehashing what he learned elsewhere and using the new name and designation as an attempt at branding and marketing by playing off of local nationalist attitudes.

By the way, in case he is teaching BJJ or some other stuff as well and that's what makes it "unique"...

In my personal opinion, including some other common art into your curriculum and saying that the resultant total art is "new" and not naming the components separately is kind of cheating. I can't count how many times I've seen Aikido teachers say "here's this jujitsu technique, in case you're curious" (same with Judo, Karate, whatever..). That doesn't mean they should go out and start their own style...

Well... maybe it would mean that if they were interested in creating their own franchise.

I think a problem that can happen with breaking away from a mainline organization is that you separate yourself and your students from that infrastructure of that organization by declaring what you do to be different and unrelated. That can be a lot of burden on all concerned... It leaves the "head" of this new style with a lot of responsibility, as he is the basis for what all "real aikido" should look like. It leaves the students with a single point of failure that they base their studies around.

Rob
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Old 05-24-2006, 01:10 PM   #59
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Re: Real aikido question

If the founder of 'Real Aikido' had spent a large part of his life studying and practicing martial arts, have a proven lineage and can demonstrate the viability of his art, then maybe his 'Real Aikido' would be taken more seriously.
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Old 05-24-2006, 01:12 PM   #60
nmrmak
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Re: Real aikido question

He is using it as a sort of a trade mark. for example, in my dojo, we call techniques and all the other stuff by their japanese names (shomenuchi, kotegaeshi and so on), while in real aikido they use everyday terms such as thrust or punch instead of tsuki and so on. They don't have seiza, nor do they have weapon training (except for knife i think or maybe some short staff that could be used as a bat). The techniques are rougher in my opinion, and more painful. Some are derived from BJJ it seems. There is no local content to the best of my knowledge. There are techniques i've never seen done in aikikai aikido (it's not like i train long enough to claim i've seen it all anyway). The techniques are often done in a more painful way that in aikikai style (shihonage is a good example, they tend to keep uke's hand far from his shoulder. dangerous but effective)
Quote:
Does Aikido not work in street fights?
Luckily, i wouldn't know, i guess it does. But isn't the idea of aikido not to get into a conflict at all? Real aikido doesn't have any such philosophy as far as i know.

I just feel the need to say that i do not train in nor am i trying to "defend" real aikido. I'm just trying to share the information i have. Please excuse me if i am wrong somewhere because some of the information i have about real aikido is hear-say.
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Old 05-24-2006, 01:24 PM   #61
Robert Rumpf
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Re: Real aikido question

Quote:
Nebojsa Mrmak wrote:
He is using it as a sort of a trade mark. for example, in my dojo, we call techniques and all the other stuff by their japanese names (shomenuchi, kotegaeshi and so on), while in real aikido they use everyday terms such as thrust or punch instead of tsuki and so on. They don't have seiza, nor do they have weapon training (except for knife i think or maybe some short staff that could be used as a bat). The techniques are rougher in my opinion, and more painful. Some are derived from BJJ it seems. There is no local content to the best of my knowledge. There are techniques i've never seen done in aikikai aikido (it's not like i train long enough to claim i've seen it all anyway). The techniques are often done in a more painful way that in aikikai style (shihonage is a good example, they tend to keep uke's hand far from his shoulder. dangerous but effective)

Luckily, i wouldn't know, i guess it does. But isn't the idea of aikido not to get into a conflict at all? Real aikido doesn't have any such philosophy as far as i know.

I just feel the need to say that i do not train in nor am i trying to "defend" real aikido. I'm just trying to share the information i have. Please excuse me if i am wrong somewhere because some of the information i have about real aikido is hear-say.
Yeah... ok.. Thanks for the info, and I hope I wasn't rude. Its nice to get more detailed information about this stuff, in case it ever comes up in conversation.

Rob
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Old 05-24-2006, 01:26 PM   #62
nmrmak
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Re: Real aikido question

No offence taken, and i didn't want to sound rude either.
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Old 05-24-2006, 01:32 PM   #63
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Re: Real aikido question

George Ledyard wrote:

Quote:
Convince your students that they are getting something they are not. It actually works quite well as most beginners can't tell what high level skill actually is anyway.
Completely understand where you are coming from, but with an art such as aikido, how do you "judge" skill level anyway.

We can get into the whole "effectiveness" argument, and the whole "street fight" thing...which becomes pointless as we would be here all day figuring out the parameters of such a fight and never agree.

This is what is so confusing to beginners. How do you tell what is "high level" or what is "effective"?

I think time, and the number of people, and the reputation of the people that acknowledge your style is what ultimately determines the acceptability or legitamacy of an art.

Don't really care if someone is a 3rd Dan, or a 10th Dan. Frankly there are "mudansha" BJJ guys i'd rather study with than most 3rd Dans and below in aikido, as they really have a better grasp of martial concepts....and that is from generally accepted aikido orgs!

So, I think it is hard to tell or judge someone's ability to teach or what not. I agree, if anyone is referring to themselves as a 10th Dan or Grandmaster...I am immediately skeptical, as there are only so many people that really can claim that degree of proficiency!

In BJJ out of the thousands there is like one or two right? In aikikai aikido...how many out of the thousands???

so, someone that has a few students or small following that has just recently created a "art" and is calling himself a 10th Dan, probably is not really at that level as "most" in the TMA world would accept.

So, how do you judge "high level" in an art that is basically a "DO" and has no real quantitative methods for measuring "effectivenss" or "skill". It makes it kinda interesting!
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Old 05-24-2006, 03:45 PM   #64
Robert Rumpf
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Re: Real aikido question

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
Completely understand where you are coming from, but with an art such as aikido, how do you "judge" skill level anyway.
Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
So, how do you judge "high level" in an art that is basically a "DO" and has no real quantitative methods for measuring "effectivenss" or "skill". It makes it kinda interesting!
How do you "'judge' skill level" in tea ceremony, calligraphy, driving a car, or writing a novel? Does every value judgment in life come down to a quantitative evaluation?

That's the beauty of artificial systems such as sports or economies: they're very easy to evaluate quantitatively.

Rob

Last edited by Robert Rumpf : 05-24-2006 at 03:48 PM.
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Old 05-24-2006, 04:10 PM   #65
Raptus
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Re: Real aikido question

It takes quite a bit of nerve to start your own art, don't you agree? )

As far as of the name 'real aikido', it is true that it means 'aikido in real situation', and not what it sounds like in English.. Bad choice of words, indeed.
While I am at it. Aikido is not unreal. 'Real aikido' can also be unreal. The only thing that will decide about it, is the practitioner. Both can be as real as it gets, or as unreal as ballet, it's the user who makes the difference. Now, master Vracarevic has introduced some of his own principles, and some of the ju-jutsu as an integral part of the techniques and everything. I believe he would encounter just as much judgement if he continued using the name 'aikido', as it wouldn't be the same anymore. This way, it's a style, and not a different martial art, as it isn't. It is, however, quite easy to distinguish aikido and 'real aikido' when seen performed.

Aikido teaches thousands of techniques, not ALL of them are usable, you will agree. Real aikido is a subset of techniques, modified to suite the purpose, which are supposed to be usable on the street, in a real fight. Immobilisations are stronger, and special attention has been paid so that all the immobilisations are effective, and so that the opponent cannot escape. This ensures the effectiveness (thus the comment about the finishing atemi, I gave earlier), and full control afterwards, not necessarily causing injury, death or so. Just plain submission. There are no punches and kicks (as is often thought), just atemi to relax the opponent, and give you the time and space necessary to perform a technique.

Robert: I am not interested in technicality about names, and stuff, it irritates me. What I care about is the art itself. I can assure you that Real aikido is not 'vanilla' as you've called it. It varies from display to display, and from a master to a master. Even at the same club, under a same master, students, although taught the same way, will develop their own styles, suited to their constitution, personalities etc. Some will work harder, some softer. I've seen several clips of high rank dans in Aikikai (famous ones), which when compared, could be interpreted as different arts, without a second thought! You might have had the luck to see one such clip Stay open-minded
As for the students of Real aikido, they are free to create their own techniques, use their own abilities, make use of whatever they see and learn. It's a self-defense martial art, everything is allowed.

David, master Vracarevic, the Founder of Real aikido, did study and practice martial arts for a long time, as it is said in his biography. I really don't see a reason to fake any of the information there, but it is left to you to believe, of course

It is not easy to point out differences like this, some of the changes are small, but important, and some of the basic principles are different. Of course, techniques you can see in Real aikido do exist in Aikido (damn names! ), of course, are similar, and recognizable, but are often shown as several variations of the same. Pick out the most effective one, disregard others, if possible, modify for even more effectiveness, and you get Real aikido

Hm, of course, a master would probably have different explanations and different views. This is 'my humble' point of view. I'll invite you to visit
http://www.realaikido.org/tehnike_realnog_aikidoa.htm

this webpage, there are a few more techniques, done at presentations by one of our best masters. Most of these aren't in our syllabus, and look alot like aikikai

If you have any questions, I will be glad to try answering them, as far as my knowledge goes. I am not a master yet

After all this said, people can still choose between the two Aikikai organizations right here, at the same place, so it's left to their own will and affinities.

Last edited by Raptus : 05-24-2006 at 04:13 PM.
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Old 05-24-2006, 04:40 PM   #66
Mark Freeman
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Re: Real aikido question

Great post Milos,

regards

Mark

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Old 05-24-2006, 04:56 PM   #67
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Re: Real aikido question

From Wikipedia,

" In the late sixties, when Europe first started training of aikido, Ljubomir Vracarevic was one of the first students. In 1971 he obtained a black belt, 1st Dan.

During his first training in Japan in 1978 he stayed in the Aikikai Honbu dojo, with master Kisshomaru Ueshiba, the son of the founder of Aikido Morihei Ueshiba. Taking into consideration the knowledge and prestige of Japan masters, Ljubomir was aspiring towards his style based on construction, mentality and tradition. His work in the military and police force during the seventies inspired him to start perfecting the practical aspect of aikido. This would allow him to increase the use of effective techniques in real situations.

During his second stay in Tokyo in 1993 at the famous Yoshinkan (the school of master Gozo Shioda 10. Dan), his way of thinking was confirmed. Even though he was working in his own style, by the end of his stay he received great honor. He got to meet great Shioda, who rarely received visitors, because of his age. Shioda honored him with a diploma that he personally signed."
_

Who was his sensei when he received his 1st dan? Was there a 2nd Dan? Did he receive rank when he was at Aikikia Honbu? Did he receive rank when he was at Yoshinkan Dojo?

From
Wikipedia,

"It must be emphasized that Real Aikido is not recognized by any other Aikido federation or organization. Because Real Aikido doesn't have the main principles of Aikido, some critics say that he had very little knowledge of what Aikido really is when he created this style."
_

Regarding the second sentence of the above quote, if it does not have the main principles of Aikido is he just using the name to market his martial art?
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Old 05-24-2006, 05:25 PM   #68
Raptus
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Re: Real aikido question

Good questions Never occured to me, though...
I believe master Vracarevic was a student of master Shimizu, but I am not certain, I will try to find out.

Not all of the principles are excluded. Movements are similar, immobilisations too, blending, using opponents own force to defeat him etc. I don't think market was the goal, it didn't go very well that way
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Old 05-25-2006, 01:32 AM   #69
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Real aikido question

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote:
Regarding the second sentence of the above quote, if it does not have the main principles of Aikido is he just using the name to market his martial art?
I would point out that, if it was about marketing, he'd have done a damn sight better to call it something that had some commercial potential...

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Old 05-25-2006, 09:10 AM   #70
Robert Rumpf
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Re: Real aikido question

Quote:
Milos Savic wrote:
Real aikido is not 'vanilla' as you've called it.
Maybe, or maybe not.. but the video (which is what I was commenting on) was. Were those students, or was one of them Vracarevic-sensei ? I was merely pointing out that the video didn't show anything that I haven't seen before in other Aikido contexts.

You point out very well how styles vary widely among Aikidoka, almost to the point of being different arts. That's a very important idea - and I'd love to see the innovations that Vracarevic-sensei has brought to the table. Are there any videos of Vracarevic-sensei out there?

What is also noticeable is that often people disagree about Aikido and still call themselves Aikidoka, and still coexist in organizations together... or at least until they get annoyed with each other and start their own styles. There seems to be less of that in the US these days, as the main organizations are fairly well established and seemingly flexible about doctrine.

I look forward to seeing more "Real Aikido" in the future.

Besides... vanilla, while common, is still a great flavor.

Rob
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Old 05-25-2006, 09:13 AM   #71
Robert Rumpf
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Re: Real aikido question

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:
I would point out that, if it was about marketing, he'd have done a damn sight better to call it something that had some commercial potential...
I think there's definitely a market out there for BAJ (Brazilian Aikijutu).



Anyone know any Brazilians?

Seriously.. It'll be really interesting to see what the "in" martial art is in ten years.
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Old 05-25-2006, 11:40 AM   #72
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Re: Real aikido question

Quote:
Milos Savic wrote:
It takes quite a bit of nerve to start your own art, don't you agree? )
David, master Vracarevic, the Founder of Real aikido, did study and practice martial arts for a long time, as it is said in his biography. I really don't see a reason to fake any of the information there, but it is left to you to believe, of course
a) I don't think it takes much nerve at all to start ones own martial art, judging by the myriad folks who have been moved to do so. Just do a search on martial arts... the majority that come up when you look at the schools all over the place are arts in which ait is impossible to trace any lineage at all... In other words, somebody just made them up. In the vast majority of the cases with which I am familiar, a person of medium rank felt that his true talents were under appreciated by the legitimate teachers with whom he was associated and he creates his own style. These styles are very often a hodge-podge of the many style in which this person trained. The problem is that the person who has jumped all over the boards training may have black belts in all sorts of things but hasn't gotten to a deep level in any of them. Inevitably this person is a Grandmaster, Master, Soke, 10th Dan, maybe all of the above.

b) it's not a matter of "faking" a resume... There are whole organizations devoted to assisting you, in return for money, in building the most outrageous resume you could wish for. The World Sokeship Council is made up of a bunch of bogus Sokes who will certify you as a Soke.

Check out:
Hall of Fame Order Form

You feel you don't have the rank you deserve? Go To:
Get your rank here!

Real Aikido is associated with these guys. It's not "fake", it's painfully real. But no serious martial artists I know of would take these guys seriously.

This is a huge problem in our whole culture, not just in martial arts. It has turned out that a number of government officials and corporate executives have padded their resumes with degrees granted by diploma mills which are totally non-accredited.

The issue in these martial arts diploma mills is that, the top guy might actually have some legitimate rank in an art. "O-Sensei" Phil Porter was a real Judo guy, although of spotty personal reputation. He starts this organization and grants rank in anything and everything. I know of an Aikido "8th Dan" who got rank this way from a bunch of folks who included NO Aikido practitioners. It's all smoke and mirrors.

People who rely on this type of thing raise questions of personal integrity. It doesn't matter what kind of "bad ass" fighter you are.

Last edited by George S. Ledyard : 05-25-2006 at 11:43 AM.

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Old 05-25-2006, 12:00 PM   #73
Dennis Hooker
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Re: Real aikido question

In a resent Black Belt Magazine Dave Lowry did a real good article on just this topic.

Dennis Hooker: (DVD) Zanshin and Ma-ai in Aikido
https://www.createspace.com/238049

www.shindai.com
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Old 05-25-2006, 12:13 PM   #74
Raptus
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Re: Real aikido question

No, master Vracarevic is not on that clip, but one of his masters, and I believe, his own students.
There are videos of his, syllabus and other presentations, and seminars recorded.
The exact reason for separating is not known to me, I can only assume that some of his modifications, and exclusions wouldn't have been accepted just like that.
Oh yeah, vanilla is my favorite flavor but I enjoy strawberry around it

George, I have to agree with you. I realize that Hall of Fame (and such mentioned) are a way to elbow your way up... Sadly, there is not much I can do about it, and I find it far more useful to concentrate on learning and practicing.
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Old 05-25-2006, 12:13 PM   #75
nmrmak
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Re: Real aikido question

I'm not really informed in this area, but didn't O'Sensei make aikido as a compilation of other arts, such as aikijutsu, judo and the like (including weapons arts)?
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Aikido in Amsterdam, Terry Lax style... tiyler_durden General 11 11-03-2008 08:31 AM
?? Exaggeration in Aikido ?? Roy General 305 03-30-2006 12:34 PM
Dilution of aikido eugene_lo General 40 02-07-2006 11:22 AM
Is Aikido techniques applicable in real world? cyclone7 General 30 11-21-2001 05:32 AM


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