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Old 03-18-2004, 06:13 PM   #51
ikkitosennomusha
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Quote:
Aleksey S (shihonage) wrote:
Your desire to learn the human sense of humor is quite endearing, Data, but I do think you could benefit from more rehearsals before exposing it to the general public.
Perhaps so, perhaps so! hehehe.

Maybe I should sit back and only reply to other peoples post in the same vein as they have mine!

Brad
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Old 03-18-2004, 06:15 PM   #52
George S. Ledyard
 
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Digging a Deeper and Deeper Hole

Brad,

You have only been contributing on these threads for a few days but you are digging yourself a deeper and deeper hole. Too much more and you are going to have trouble getting on the mat at any seminar you might care to attend.

It's one thing for a fellow who has just enough experience in the martial arts to be dangerous to himself to show up on the ineternet and act like he knows more than he does. But it starts to get really iffy when you start to try to enhance yourself by either denegrating other people or trying to raise yourself up by comparing your abilities to those of folks who have trained ten times longer than you have, with teachers who are some of the very best in the world. You are maybe qualified to fold Glaeson Sensei's hakama...

Your attempt to "out technical" the senior Aikido folks falls flat with this forum because there are plenty of folks who hang around these forums who are just as senior to you in the realm of science as the aikido folks are to you in Aikido experience.

I am offering this as a friendly warning, not because of any physical threat to you, but because you are systematically destroying what little credibility that you started with. You REALLY don't want to be in that place in the Aikido community. if you inetend to train long.

Last edited by George S. Ledyard : 03-18-2004 at 06:18 PM.

George S. Ledyard
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Old 03-18-2004, 06:40 PM   #53
ikkitosennomusha
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..

Last edited by ikkitosennomusha : 03-18-2004 at 06:43 PM.
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Old 03-18-2004, 06:47 PM   #54
ikkitosennomusha
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Gleason-sensei? who is that? Know who Yasuo Kobayashi-shihan is? Is this about who has trained under whom?? Do you know how old I am?

If you feel someone is trying to "out technical" you, or whatever you called it, then perhaps you have some sort of insecurity problem? No one is trying to out do someone else on my behalf but it seems to be the case on your behalf.

I have seen you pic and website. George I gotta tell ya, you wouldn't be running your mouth like that in person with me. So keep your hakama foldin' jokes to yourself before I have to adress your smart-witted demeanor.

Last edited by ikkitosennomusha : 03-18-2004 at 06:57 PM.
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Old 03-18-2004, 07:00 PM   #55
ikkitosennomusha
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This is it, I thought this site might be more open minded. I will not acknowledge any more comments as this site is a complete waste of time. George, be careful how you choose to monitor people on this site. Just because yo look like someone's grandfather, doesn't mean you have the right to act like it. I should hope you are not like this in a dojo with others. If you were like this with me, your mouth would write a check your body can't cash.

Goodbye to all.
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Old 03-18-2004, 07:00 PM   #56
Michael Mules
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Quote:
Brad Medling (ikkitosennomusha) wrote:
Do you know how old I am?
No. We don't. How old are you? And since it is pertinent to the topic, what are your qualifications/training in the fields you are representing?

Not that it matters too much of course. What does matter is how you comport yourself in public and how accurate and in-context your information is.

This is not an attack. It is a request for information based on questions and statements you have raised. I look forward to your reply

Michael
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Old 03-18-2004, 07:01 PM   #57
Michael Mules
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Damn. Missed him by this much.

Michael
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Old 03-18-2004, 07:06 PM   #58
PeterR
 
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Against my better judgement.

Craig and I have had this debate many times - our differences on Ki I think are due to global versus specific outlooks.

What Ki society calls Ki, Shodokan people tend to break down into various powers with Ido Ryoku (power of movement) being the main one. Also contributing are breath power (timing), power of focus, and the more mystical Ki. This latter Ki just is (the very definition of mystical) and I think it is easier to understand it, in this context, as a fudge factor to explain the synergistic effect of all the powers.

The mystical Ki is believed by many to be found in all things, including rocks and trees. Neither of which have a gluconeogenic pathway - last I checked. In fact Ki seems to be related to size - big trees and even bigger rocks. My own personal theory is that the mystical Ki equals gravitation .

Further argument against the gluconeogenic pathway as Ki has already been given. Like Craig I've got Biochem degrees bursting out all over not to mention 25 years of study and research. Like Craig some of that is directly related to the Gluconeogenic pathway. I do consider Craig more expert though and would defer to him even if we did disagree - which we don't.

Craig - just (like while I was writting this response) got a paper accepted in JMB. Letter from R. Huber no less. Tonight - I party.

Last edited by PeterR : 03-18-2004 at 07:09 PM.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 03-18-2004, 07:22 PM   #59
ikkitosennomusha
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ok This is really it, but before I got I wanted to respond to Michael and Peter.

Peter:

I agree with you %100. I never said that you can't call ki what you wish b ecasue I feel everyones definition is correct! I feel that same way as you and I also call it ki. This post was just to try to get to a deeoer understanding which I had hoped would spark some of your great comments. Why people think I introduced this for any other reason is beyond me. I read a post discussing CTS and it sounded techn ical so I thought the crows could handle my post.

Michael:

I began training aikido at the age of 15. I am now 30. Yes 15 years is more than some but less than others. I have studied various styles of aikido. 2 of them I have a black belt, one I am shodan, the other sandan. My first organizational experience, I only got to 2nd kyu. I took that 2nd kyu, joined another and became shodan again. Mainly because I have hoped around so much, I was unable to get to highly ranked because everywhere I went, I got demoted until I learned their system. I was currently working on testing again but know, I have become a ronin beecause I am not satisfied with any one particular dojo. I am trying to reach a certain place in my training and I have to search more before I find the place to take me there. That is variious ranks I have which don't mean squat! I have been going to seminars and I find many black belt that didn't know crap from tar and some who did. You know how it is......I am currently teaching which is great but I feel that I have more personal development to do. Recognizing this, I am reparing for a unique journey soon...

Aidos.....

Last edited by ikkitosennomusha : 03-18-2004 at 07:27 PM.
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Old 03-18-2004, 08:10 PM   #60
aikidocapecod
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well...I am certainly done with this thread....

Aikido has taught me the good sense to know when to turn the other cheek and walk away...

walking...........
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Old 03-18-2004, 08:29 PM   #61
shihonage
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Quote:
Brad Medling (ikkitosennomusha) wrote:
George, be careful how you choose to monitor people on this site. Just because yo look like someone's grandfather, doesn't mean you have the right to act like it. I should hope you are not like this in a dojo with others. If you were like this with me, your mouth would write a check your body can't cash.
Mr. Ledyard is not just some hoodlum who decided to step forward and insult you for no reason.
From his posts on this forum I've observed that he doesn't exactly have a habit of talking to people this way, with you being an obvious exception.

The general tone of his statement has summed up what was on the minds of many people who are reading this thread.

I don't know or care about who's qualified to fold who's hakama, and I'm certainly not qualified to pass judgement on that, and I have a loooooong way to go before reaching your rank, but that doesn't stop me from seeing things and passing a simple, private human judgement based solely on common sense and self-preservation - if by a chance of fate I will meet a "Brad Medling" on the mat, I'm going to be giving slow, insincere and very controlled attacks, and I will provide absolutely no useful resistance, not even because I dislike the said "Brad Medling" but because I don't think he can control himself, and thus I cannot trust my physical well-being to him by giving him sincere attacks.
I will at least START training with that attitude, purely out of self-preservation, and see if my cautions were warranted.

I _think_ that is also the part of the point that Mr. Ledyard was making in regards to you having "trouble on the mat".

Last edited by shihonage : 03-18-2004 at 08:40 PM.
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Old 03-18-2004, 09:19 PM   #62
Mel Barker
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I mostly lurk on Aikido forums, so I get to know the regulars. Mr. Ledyard's posts always catch my eye due to his willingness to offer steady non-judgmental, informed insights. He is truly a gentleman and I hope to meet him on the mat someday (or perhaps the pub).

His willingness to offer our brash newcomer some sorely needed advice was certainly more than I was willing to endeavor as I tend to ignore these types.

Unfortunately his endeavors have been for naught.

Hopefully, like many before him the new comer will be true to his word and find someplace else to troll.

Mel
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Old 03-18-2004, 10:17 PM   #63
L. Camejo
 
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Talking

Quote:
Aleksey S (shihonage) wrote:
Threads like these are like watching a car wreck unfold.
I just got through reading this entire thread. Came in a bit late (I generally avoid "ki" threads). I think Aleksey hit the nail on the head LONG before stuff got nasty. Got some Bruce Baker flashbacks actually

Was about to ask Brad if he equated gluconeogenics with ki and chi as the chinese call it, then how does this conversion of energy explain something like "chi healing" which has not much to do with muscles and has been detected as energy vibration by scientific equipment to some extent in China.

But after he lost his cool so easily when challenged I guess it's better if he find a good Sensei and get in some quality mat training. It might improve his social aiki. May be a good idea to trade in those dan grades in the process.

Just my humble opinion. BTW, ki is "the force" - now if we can only find Yoda we can put this whole thing to rest.

L.C.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
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Old 03-18-2004, 10:44 PM   #64
JiuJitsuka87
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My experience

"fight-or-flight" aka adrenaline is very non-beneficial to martial arts in most regards.

I could be wrong. But from my experience I know that in jiu-jitsu tournaments, especially in beginner's division, everyone gets a huge adrenaline dump. What do they do? THEY TENSE UP. What happens to their technique? It goes out the window.

My second tournament, I was much more relaxed, no huge adrenaline dump, I just worked my technique, and ended up placing 2nd. The loss in the finals match was due to my own technical errors which I must work on in training.

I don't know much about ki or aikido. But I assume from my reading and study that KI is central to aikido and the practice there-of. The adrenaline dump you speak of is very non-beneficial to using martial arts skills. Therefore, how can you associate it with Ki?

I think, I could be wrong, again, I am an outsider on this, but the process that Brad spoke of has to do with metabolising energy for desperate circumstances. I thought KI was kinda bigger than that. But hey, I could be wrong.

Perhaps the adrenaline dump is one face of KI. The harsh, angry, uncontrolled, chaotic side. Perhaps the flowing techniques encompassing balance and leverage and a calm, empty mind are the other side of KI.

Nothing has to be one extreme or another. As a grappler I know this. My art depends upon balance, not extremes. There are times when one must be hard, and others when one must be soft.

I think he may have one aspect of KI scientifically explained. But what about the other thousand aspects of KI?

The quickest way to kill a martial art or anything for that matter, is to stop learning and studying it. To assume you understand KI is only going to hurt your training.

I have done many double-leg takedowns. But there are still principles and set-ups and minor variations in techniques I have no grasp of. Until I am an olympian like John Smith who can use a single takedown and wreck my opponents with it, I have no right to claim I understand anything.

Bram Stoker was a genius for publishing Dracula. The book is about the fallacy of total faith in science. Brad, I commend you for trying to apply scientific reasoning to your understanding of the martial arts. But I beseech you, don't shut your mind there. Keep striving to learn, and never claim to have an absolute unless you are willing to prove it.

How do you prove it? Line up Aikido black belts and beat them with your superior understanding with KI. Then I'll believe you.

Think it's not possible?

Rickson Gracie does it when preparing for his fights. He takes black belts and beats them like ragdolls. He has a right to say he understands Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. Until you do that, or until I do that, we have no right to claim understanding. Well, we might have the right, but we only deceive ourselves.

Forgive me for this lengthy post, I wish I was better at writing these things.
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Old 03-18-2004, 10:48 PM   #65
Ian Williams
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Quote:
which has not much to do with muscles and has been detected as energy vibration by scientific equipment to some extent in China.
there has never been any scientific credible evidence of "chi/ki" to the best of my knowledge.

Last edited by Ian Williams : 03-18-2004 at 10:51 PM.

Tsutsumi Ryu Jujitsu
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Old 03-18-2004, 11:10 PM   #66
p00kiethebear
 
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<quote>You probably do not intend to come across as a self-selected know it all, but that is the tone you consistently take, and its quite offputting.</quote>

Not trying to offend... But I can't agree more.

"Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity"
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Old 03-18-2004, 11:15 PM   #67
Erik
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Go away for a couple of hours and BOOM! Anyways, I always find it interesting what threads generate the most posts and the type of personality it takes to generate them. And, Craig and I aren't even duking it out in a thread with the word ki in it.

By the way, Brad if you are still there, note how I phrased the question. I was not asking what creatine was, rather, I asked if it was ki, or not.
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Old 03-19-2004, 01:17 AM   #68
ryujin
 
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Cool

Damn, and here I thought ki was that object I unlock or lock doors with.

Carl Bilodeau
Jiyūshin-ryū AikiBudō
Renshinkan

"Yield to temptation it may not pass your way again." - Robert Heinlein
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Old 03-19-2004, 05:20 AM   #69
L. Camejo
 
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Quote:
Ian Williams wrote:
there has never been any scientific credible evidence of "chi/ki" to the best of my knowledge.
Granted, and I have no physical evidence to prove or disprove either. This was from a chinese documentary on qigong and its different aspects, one of which was qi healing. They used some sort of recording device and recorded a constant pulse emanating from qigong healer's hands at a frequency of between 8 to 14 hertz from what I remember.

Like I said in before, I tend to avoid ki threads. It's almost as bad as talking about Religion, everyone has a theory but not many can prove their theories.

If we are fortunate enough to have some insight into the matter this is good, I don't think there is any knowledge that is not power.

Just my few cents.

L.C.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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Old 03-19-2004, 08:17 AM   #70
jamesallen
 
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Quote:
Nathan gidney (p00kiethebear) wrote:
... ki is urine colored kool aid that is magically produced in the appendix which pushes it through the blood in your body and becomes invisible when it leaves the body and was originally devloped by lizard gods in order to make beer taste real good.
Dagnabbit! That's what I was going to say!
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Old 03-19-2004, 09:26 AM   #71
Ron Tisdale
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Sorry, but what a waste of space.

Brad, listen to George, Craig, Peter. They are really trying to help.

Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 03-19-2004, 09:57 AM   #72
jgrowney
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Brad,

It's nice to see that you have found a new way to personally identify with your idea of what Ki is. That's a real breakthrough for you. Congratulations.

Keep this in mind however. For you to progress, your definition of Ki will need to change over time... just like your understanding of everything else in aikido.

Even George Ledyard admits that his definition is really a work in progress, and that for a deeper understanding to be attained, he will need to empty some of his cup.

All I'm suggesting is that you preface your comments with something like "my current understanding is that...."

If you continue to progress with aikido, I guarantee you that 5 years from now you will have a different opinion on the issue, no matter what you think today. I don't mean an opposing opinion, but different than exactly what you described here.

Sincerely,

Jim

Jim Growney
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Old 03-19-2004, 10:07 AM   #73
BLangille
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Interesting thread. I must say that I disagree with Brad's definition of ki, but hey, me not to bright.
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Old 03-19-2004, 11:47 AM   #74
Jason Mudd
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Here's my beginner's reply... which you can completely dismiss if you'd like...

At my current stage, I see ki as a visualization tool to aid in bringing the mind, intention, and the body together.

That being said, I don't want to attach to that definition (even if it is fairly "weak"). I have a feeling that as soon as it becomes a concrete idea in my mind I've shackled myself.

We all come from different backgrounds, and we make sense of our world by fitting it into the structure of our past experiences and knowledge.

However, maybe it's not such a wonderful idea to force everything into our rigid construct.

There may come a time when you must overcome yourself to move forward, and this attachment may be the anchor holding you back.

Or, I'm wrong about everything. Oh well.

I break the surface so I can breath.
I close my eyes so I can see.
I tie my arms to be free.
Have you ever been free?
- Fugazi
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Old 03-19-2004, 01:02 PM   #75
kironin
 
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Quote:
Peter Rehse (PeterR) wrote:
Against my better judgement.

Craig - just (like while I was writting this response) got a paper accepted in JMB. Letter from R. Huber no less. Tonight - I party.
Peter,

Congratulations!

Well, today after reading more posts here, I realize now that I had a moment of bad judgement and I fed a troll. Well, live and learn.

as for our disagreements, it's probably really a matter of terminology (or I am just softening as I age). Tohei Sensei talks about Universal Ki which is what you are talking about when you say the mystical ki found in all things and then he also talks about the particular ki, which seems to be all the other things you mentioned and which I tend to chalk under the heading of getting your mind and body coordinated (aka Tempu Nakamura's Japanese yoga training methods adapted by Tohei Sensei). In fact my operating definition for particular ki really is, ki is mind. So in classes I talk more about the mind, as expressed in posture, breathing, focus, attention, etc. It's been an evolving process for me of how to teach such stuff. My senior student is a hypnotherapist so it's made for some interesting discussions with him and Kashiwaya Sensei.

party on, dude.

Craig

Last edited by kironin : 03-19-2004 at 01:05 PM.
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