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Old 03-14-2003, 12:32 AM   #51
shihonage
Join Date: Sep 2001
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Quote:
Brett Charvat (camel) wrote:
After reading the original post, I think it might be prudent....

etc etc etc
A certain thing that happened here recently.

Some guy wrote some poetry, and some woman copied it without permission and put her name on it.

So, the guy is justifiably upset, he says to her, "Why did you steal my original work ?", to which she replied "You didn't make anything original ! All these words you used are in the vocabulary !".

The quality of your arguments, Brett, is no less ignorant than the statement above.

I've had a few clashes with exactly the same type of "Aikido student" that Liane described, and it's no joke.

It kept getting uglier and uglier and (partially due to my fault) ended pretty damn ugly.

Unless you experience this type of continuous invasion of your personal space for yourself, you will not be able to perceive written description of incidents such as the one she described.

Therefore, since you're not able to perceive, you waive your right to pass ignorant off-the-wall statements.

Last edited by shihonage : 03-14-2003 at 12:43 AM.
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Old 03-14-2003, 01:53 AM   #52
Timothy Hansma
Location: Sacramento, California
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Hi everyone. Having dealt with bullies (sometimes not so succesfully, and other tims so) I would suggest something. Taking from a good book I have read, I would like to take up the WWOD, in other words, what would O-sensei do?. My perception is that he would deal with him in the Way of Harmony. First talk to the bully yourself. I myself have been quite a jerk in the past when I have a little too much Testosterone in my system. I regret it now, and unless someone didn't point it out to me I would have kept on hurting others unintentionally. I also think Timing is important, the best time to talk about someone hurting your feelings is right away, as soon as it happens. Be polite, try not to intiimidate, but be firm. I also think if this does not assuage the situation. I think talking to Sensei should clear things up. Perhaps he hasn't noticed when these "overenthusiastic" training sessions have happened. I also think refusing to train with him if it comes to that will definately get the bullys attention, as well as the Sensei. You have a right to feel safe, on the street and especially on the Dojo Mat. I think if this sounds "touchy feely" that is okay, because aikido is the "art of Love/Peace" If it wasn't we might as well be traiing in Ju-jitsu and learn how to break bones and smash faces. This is the little bit I have to offer. I hope it helps. Peace be with you.

Timothy Hansma

"To injure and opponent is to injure Oneself. To control aggresion without inflicting injury is the Art of Peace.", M. Ueshiba
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Old 03-14-2003, 04:18 AM   #53
ian
 
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I cannot believe your sensei is not stepping in on this one - he has the authority to do something about it. Any excessive bullying should be drawn to the senseis attention. Ueshiba insisted that aikido should only be taught to those of good character (though I'm not sure he followed his own advice!).

At the end of the day your sensei is liable for any problems that occur - he/she should be much more in control of the situation. One bully can change the atmosphere of the whole dojo - sometimes they just have to be removed.

Ian

---understanding aikido is understanding the training method---
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Old 03-14-2003, 06:22 AM   #54
rachmass
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Lets be polite with each other here. Brett (in my mind) was just trying to ask Lianne whether she felt the situation was dangerous and get a bit more background. Granted this thread is long, and maybe he hadn't read the thread all the way through (aren't we all guilty of that one sometimes?) and therefore missed some good points from all the contributors, but we really need to be respectful with each other on these public forums.

all the best,

Rachel
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Old 03-14-2003, 06:27 AM   #55
Avery Jenkins
 
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Quote:
Ian Dodkins (ian) wrote:
I cannot believe your sensei is not stepping in on this one - he has the authority to do something about it. Any excessive bullying should be drawn to the senseis attention. Ueshiba insisted that aikido should only be taught to those of good character (though I'm not sure he followed his own advice!).

At the end of the day your sensei is liable for any problems that occur - he/she should be much more in control of the situation. One bully can change the atmosphere of the whole dojo - sometimes they just have to be removed.

Ian
I recall an incident from many years ago, when I was training at a different dojo. This dojo was in a run-down area of the city, and we got a lot of different types of people that came to train...made for an interesting class, sometimes.

This was a dojo with a lot of young people, and it was fairly rough-and-tumble; respectful and disciplined, but there wasn't a whole lot of cosmic dancing. One fellow started training with us who seemed intent on trying to best everyone, resisting instead of learning, really trying to hurt you.

About two weeks after this student had started training, I heard a great shout in the middle of class; I looked over in time to see sensei slam this student onto the mat. Then he looked down at him and told him to get off the mat and leave the dojo.

At the end of class, sensei apologized to us for his outburst; but, he said, that student just didn't have "the right spirit" for our dojo.
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Old 03-14-2003, 11:46 AM   #56
ruthmc
Dojo: Wokingham Aikido
Location: Reading, UK
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Eek!

Liane wrote:
Quote:
i don't want to cause trouble at my dojo, but i don't feel that i can continue my training in an environment where there is an agressive student. i also feel that i have a responsibility towards the junior members of the dojo, to protect them from being harmed or from driving them away from the dojo. i would like to talk to my teacheer about it, but i don't know how well it would be received. does anyone have any idea as to how i can best phrase this to my teacher, without causing trouble?
Liane, your message sets off all kinds of warning bells! Something very similar happened to me about a year ago. I wasn't sure my sensei would listen to me, and after I posted the problems I was having on a mailing list and he found out that I had done so, sure enough he didn't want to hear anything I had to say.

So I left the dojo. My sensei was reportedly hopping mad that I'd even thought of writing for advice - I guess he saw it as a betrayal. From what you've said in your original post, it sounds like you have exactly the same concerns about speaking to your sensei as I had.

My advice is, if the knucklehead bully-boy is a University student, he won't hang around for ever so find out when he finishes his course and keep him at arm's length until he leaves. If he's a permanent fixture, you have to decide how important it is to you to continue training at this dojo. Things to take into consideration are:

1) Your sensei's attitude. The well-being of his/her students should be priority no.1, and if this is not the case, find another teacher. We are not learning to be warriors, we have to go to school or work the next day, so anybody who repeatedly puts us in dangerous situations must be dealt with AT ONCE.

2) The general attitude in the dojo. Go visit some other places if you can and find out what's different in the general atmosphere. If the students are happy and learning, you can taste it in the air. If there is a problem, the place will have an air of tension.

3) What you want to get from your training. Think carefully about this. If you aren't getting 95% of what you want from this dojo, don't waste your time there.

Now make a decision you know is right for you. THEN go talk to your sensei. You have to prepare for both the best and worst case scenarios, and make sure you come out of it as a winner. If your sensei sorts out the problems and you are happy training there - fantasic!! If OTOH your legitimate concerns are ignored, please go find a better dojo. You are worth far more than you are getting at the hands of that bully.

I am now very happy at my new dojo - we have a brilliant atmosphere there and everybody is progressing happily. Things can work out right when you make the right choices.

Good luck!

Ruth
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Old 03-14-2003, 12:55 PM   #57
Alfonso
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It's not difficult to envision a situation in Liane's scenario might have risen out of a misunderstanding, of the sort of that Brett may hint at.

Thinking in rosy terms I think that the best one could hope is that the guy in question saw this thread and this caused him to reevaluate what he's trying to do, or how he's coming accross.

Regardless, the multiple responses may have indicated to Liane what is expected behavior in a random sampling of Aikido Dojos. Hopefully this has helped her get the confidence to breach the subject with her sempai/sensei.

3 years into Aikido I was experiencing a first timers enthusiasm over the martial side of Aikido; after so much time of being awkward things started to make sense, talk of openings, of zanshin etc.

At the same time working with beginners is a challenge because they don't do what is expected automatically, and suddenly you can see where they leave themselves exposed.

The burden is on the senior student though, to help the beginner understand; and being threatening about it is an inappropriate response. People forget what it feels like to be so vulnerable as when you're starting to go this place where everything you do is wrong and everyone else seems so competent.

It was this lack of consideration that personally pisses me off. I think it's good that Liane feels she has options and the backing of other people.

But yes, isn't aikido also about not creating more victims?

Alfonso Adriasola
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Old 03-15-2003, 12:26 AM   #58
camel
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Mr. Sundeyev,

I apologize if you found my comments ignorant or in any way malicious, " that was most assuredly not my intent. I merely wanted more clarification from Liane herself on the troublesome student in question. As a matter of fact, I have experienced " quite similar situations myself in my training, and I have also seen less experienced students sometimes mistake a senior student's training methods as violent or dangerous when they were neither. I'm sorry that my comments were met with such hostility, but I assure you again that my intent was not to belittle or make light of what is possibly a very serious issue. Again, you have my apologies.

Brett
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Old 03-16-2003, 09:19 AM   #59
norman telford
 
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if there is bullying in the dojo its a problem for your sensei to solve just remember you dont have to be there you can train wherever you want to if your sensei wont or cant help you gotta leave i am a great believer in what goes around comes around on a seminar i was at once a a higher than dan grade (iwont say how much higher)was going over the top with his techniqes on 5th and 4th kyu grades this was picked up on by myself and my training partner at the time so we gave him a taste of his own medicine which had the desired effect and he behaved after that hope you get things sorted
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Old 03-17-2003, 02:18 PM   #60
Lyle Bogin
Dojo: Shin Budo Kai
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Just throw the guy and relax. If he isn't giving you injuries that keep you from practicing, he is what you might call a teacher you will appreciate, but never feel any gratitute towards.

"The martial arts progress from the complex to the simple."
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Old 03-18-2003, 07:21 AM   #61
ian
 
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I couldn't disagree with Lyle more - if you are worried about being injured you will naturally tense up and things may get worse. Also, some injuries are quite serious and I would not want to loose movement in my wrist (due to a wrist fracture) or worse, die or suffere spinal damage, just because someone was wanting to see how rough they can be.

---understanding aikido is understanding the training method---
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Old 03-18-2003, 10:00 AM   #62
Alfonso
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no no..

just relax then throw the guy
Quote:
Just throw the guy and relax.

Alfonso Adriasola
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Old 03-18-2003, 02:00 PM   #63
Lyle Bogin
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Haha! Good point Alfonso.

Seems to me the problem is fear. Not injury.
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Old 03-18-2003, 03:16 PM   #64
Goye
 
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Well,.. this is not an easy situation,.. some people here have said important things, there are several ways, talk to your teacher, kick his "huevos", don't practice with him, do this, do that,..

For what I have read, I can see that there is also a little of sensei's omission. I can't believe your sensei is not aware of the situation. I want to discuss with you guys, what should you do as sensei if you get this in your dojo. I have seen that sometimes talking is not as effective as showing the jerk how the people feels when practicing whit him. I don't mean the sensei has to hurt him,.. but sometimes is good to be harder in the technique and after that, talk to the guy and explain why you act in the way you did. If there is no response from our friend I should say to him "good bye, go to another dojo ,.. or to an ultimate fighting club, or to the streets, you can make money doing there what you do here,.. or to hell but don't remain here! ",.. there are also several for a sensei in that situation, ..discussion open!

Last edited by Goye : 03-18-2003 at 03:25 PM.

Csar Martnez
Satori Dojo
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Old 03-18-2003, 03:37 PM   #65
kung fu hamster
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Regarding the path of giving a too intense' uke a taste of their own medicine, I just wanted to add that when my teacher does this, IT IS NOT IN A SPIRIT OF RETRIBUTION FOR PAST ACTIONS. When I saw my teacher do this, he was quite jovial about it when he called the unsuspecting offender up, had the guy demonstrate ukemi, told him he was too stiff and heavy and then turned about and took ukemi from the fellow so that he can see the difference in the cooperation and flow. Then Sensei genially said, "Oh sure, you can treat your partner like THIS (Wham! turns hapless uke into a daisy-cutter then lifts him up in a gripping jointlock), or throw him like THAT! (BOOM! Uke is looking up at the ceiling with little birdies circling above his head), but then, when you've used up all your partners there won't be anyone left to throw." We were lined up, tittering and giggling, but the point was made, friendly advise taken, no hard feelings. This is because usually when the student is going hard at it he really is trying to show the sensei that he's working hard, being intense, doing his best. He values the sensei's instruction and takes it accordingly. There is no retribution' aspect to it, just a lesson in how to treat your training partners.
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Old 03-18-2003, 08:37 PM   #66
Kevin Wilbanks
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I think people keep losing sight of the real problem with the offensive guy. It's not that he's too rough, it's that he is assuming the role of a bombastic, abusive teacher, dissing the sensei, and maybe even making semi-explicit threats of harm to other students. Throwing him hard or scaring him or whatever without explanation would be irrelevant. The sensei should explain his role and appropriate student behavior to him and he should shape up immediately or be thrown out. That's really all there is to it.
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Old 03-19-2003, 03:50 AM   #67
Kung Fu Liane
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Confused

Hi,

two things to say. firstly, i'm amazed at how many people have posted on this thread, thank you to everyone who has.

secondly, i have spoken with my sensei, he was aware that there were some problems, and has been trying to deal with the guy. sensei didn't actually witness the incident that i described in my initial post, so he can't rally be blamed for anything.

my initial reluctance to talk to sensei actually stems from my having spoken my mind once before, explaining that i didn't understand aikido, that other people didn't understand either, and requesting more time to be spent on the basics. although my teacher took it well, and changed his teaching style after i had spoken with him, i didn't want to make a repeat performance and seem like a trouble maker.

finally, there seems to be a bit of a power struggle going on between my sensei and this guy, and i don't think this guy is going to win

thanx again,

-Liane

Aikido: a martial art which allows you to defeat your enemy without hurting him, unless of course he doesn't know how to breakfall in which case he will shatter every bone in his body when he lands. Also known as Origami with people
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Old 03-19-2003, 08:30 AM   #68
Ron Tisdale
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As to the "retribution" aspect, people should also remember that someone as described here often "eats up" the kind of hard practise described and comes back begging for more. I knew someone like this once...someone could throw him to hell and back, and he'd pop back up and ask for more.

Ron (hey, there's no accounting for tastes) Tisdale

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 03-19-2003, 09:48 AM   #69
beanchild
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liane, glad to hear you spoke with your sensai. hopefully that will help the situation, and give you more security as you train.

btw, any decent sensai should appreciate when a student comes to them with valid concerns and/or problems, so don't worry too much about speaking your mind, repectfully of course. (:
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Old 03-19-2003, 09:52 AM   #70
ian
 
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Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
that someone as described here often "eats up" the kind of hard practise described
I don't think that's exactly what he meant - if it is done suitably it may take them a time to actually stand up!
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