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Old 04-01-2017, 08:46 AM   #51
Budd
 
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Re: Connection with the ground, Rooting, etc

I find it motivating and start trying to get as much information about what they're doing relative to what I'm doing (there's long been suspicions this type of info is closely guarded) and keep trying to optimize the training so any identified gaps get addressed - we're all human and have limited capacity, so have to make it count.

Alec, with regard to Sam's son, what did you perceive going on in your terms as it aligns to the topic and what you've been training?

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Old 04-01-2017, 11:50 AM   #52
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Re: Connection with the ground, Rooting, etc

Quote:
Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
I find it motivating and start trying to get as much information about what they're doing relative to what I'm doing (there's long been suspicions this type of info is closely guarded) and keep trying to optimize the training so any identified gaps get addressed - we're all human and have limited capacity, so have to make it count.

Alec, with regard to Sam's son, what did you perceive going on in your terms as it aligns to the topic and what you've been training?
I also find it motivating and fun, it wasn't a complaint. In fact, it is vital, especially if you want to improve to keep meeting people who are better. And I don't really feel like I'm still in the " kiddy pool", I can swim a bit just not so well yet

Picture a young guy around 24 built like a line backer, 110 kilo all thick muscle and tissue with a good level of ting jin. His peng attacks everywhere not just at the points of contact on the hands but hitting your leg structure as well. He is not at all threatening but your body feels threat because of the constant imbalance that are being revealed. This lead to me sticking to him because my body says he is hitting my center. This forces me to try to maintain my sphere until his movements take my balance leaving me open to strikes which thankfully he didn't follow up on. The major diagnostic for me was first touch is everything, if you are not ready, inflated, "on", you are just too late. No second chances. All the other aspects of training must produce this or you have nothing.
Sam Chin would say it's quite simple. Whoever is most ready will occupy the neutral line, and the other must fall away. From that point on, awareness and maintenance (same thing at his level) of the neutral, yin/yang blended structure produce a cascade of problems. Root begins to go, arms stiffen, listening diminishes, shoulders rise, etc.
Sam Chin invades more subtly, even though he can really mix it, if he chooses. His son is like a wall, he is like a bear on an ice rink with skates on.
P.S. His skates have got brakes and spurs!

Last edited by Alec Corper : 04-01-2017 at 11:55 AM.

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Old 04-01-2017, 01:13 PM   #53
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Re: Connection with the ground, Rooting, etc

Great descriptions. Thanks, Alec. I think your point (and oft repeated by a number of peeps) about "being there first" is spot on. Also what I believe is meant by good irimi and kuzushi on contact. The more developed you are, the more these things become tangibly applicable.

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Old 04-02-2017, 11:56 AM   #54
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Re: Connection with the ground, Rooting, etc

So, just to push this thread a little further before we move on. In my mind being able to nullify, ground or bounce a push is a fundamental skill test and potential martial attribute. The corollary to this is being able to not get planted, double weighted or skewed as a setup for a throw or strike. So whilst I understand and can happily make use of the idea of rooting via the feet into the ground, the feet are also the re- entry point of earth rebound or up force, This means that the feet, just like the hands, have to unify up/down forces ( actually all 6 directions) to create extreme lightness as well as heaviness. This also is the potential for kicks that do not require antagonistic muscular action and are therefore harder to register since minimal wind up occurs. Of course, since aikido training usually eschews kicking this is not an issue for most. For a well rounded martial artist, using the legs and hands together makes great sense, both offensively and defensively. So getting away from the obvious wu shu and karate stretch and repeat approach,how do you use root to manifest power in the lower body? I have my own practice for this but I'm curious how others train.

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Old 04-02-2017, 05:39 PM   #55
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Re: Connection with the ground, Rooting, etc

A bit of illustration of Alec's comments: Sifu Sam F.S. Chin, and his eldest daughter, Yen Lee Chin, demonstrating at a kung fu tournament in New York, several years ago.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpZrDT1GFKw
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Old 04-02-2017, 07:49 PM   #56
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Re: Connection with the ground, Rooting, etc

From an internal strength training of connection, ground-gravity powering a hit, whether hand or foot, it's the same mechanic, as demo'd here byou Wang Hai Jun.

https://youtu.be/PefklUE3Nw8

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Old 04-03-2017, 01:12 AM   #57
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Re: Connection with the ground, Rooting, etc

Thanks for the videos. Here is Akuzawa showing frame stepping. I know how it feels, I was holding the pad at the beginning!

https://youtu.be/p4GOEdKyee4

Budd, of course it is the same mechanic but there are aspects to the training of the lower body that differs form the upper, at least in my mind. I thought that whilst still on root it was important to examine lightness as an attribute of internal training. My take on kicking is more to do with "walking through " the opponents structure whilst moving whole body rather than doing something with the legs or feet. So I am looking to sustaining the root via daniten and kicking with mingmen.

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Old 04-03-2017, 06:51 AM   #58
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Re: Connection with the ground, Rooting, etc

Hi Alec, my initial thought is that it takes a lot longer to develop the ki/qi in the legs the way you can initially in the trunk, arms and even hands/fingers. I like Akuzawa's stepping for initial weight transference, even as I aspirationally train more towards what WHJ was demonstrating.

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Old 04-04-2017, 11:58 AM   #59
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Re: Connection with the ground, Rooting, etc

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Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
Hi Alec, my initial thought is that it takes a lot longer to develop the ki/qi in the legs the way you can initially in the trunk, arms and even hands/fingers. I like Akuzawa's stepping for initial weight transference, even as I aspirationally train more towards what WHJ was demonstrating.
You may start with working the trunk, as many do, but to feel "qi" in the legs, you must first understand the relationship of the legs to the ground, and to the kua. The two go hand-in-hand, so to speak. Then you can combine their power to that of the trunk, building incrementally and creating a unified whole -- upper and lower body.

The arms, hands and fingers (their "shapes") really are transmitting and directing force from the ground and the core; they serve as transfer agents, conduits and directors for that force -- not as generators in and of themselves.
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Old 04-04-2017, 12:24 PM   #60
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Re: Connection with the ground, Rooting, etc

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You may start with working the trunk, as many do, but to feel "qi" in the legs, you must first understand the relationship of the legs to the ground, and to the kua. The two go hand-in-hand, so to speak. Then you can combine their power to that of the trunk, building incrementally and creating a unified whole -- upper and lower body.

The arms, hands and fingers (their "shapes") really are transmitting and directing force from the ground and the core; they serve as transfer agents, conduits and directors for that force -- not as generators in and of themselves.
Hello Cady,
It seems to me you are referring to several things here. One is the great principle of "threes" as it manifests in root, branch and tip. Dividing the whole body according to that principle presents a diagram of both energy flow and structural manipulation. Thus the. Arms and legs are bows ( and pumps and springs) but so is the whole body. The hands and feet can be viewed and trained the same way, as is obvious in "plum blossom hand" in aiki age and aiki sage. Every finger has that property as well, producing multiple spirals.

Another factor is the order in which we build connections based upon the model or theory employed. I do not think that there is one right way, having seen, felt and trained in different systems. But I do believe that different people can find more, or less efficient methods for their initial engagement. As we progress we begin to be governed more by "the nature of things" to quote on your teachers, and less by our inherited or learned limitations.

If your temper rises withdraw your hand, if your hand rises withdraw your temper.
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Old 04-04-2017, 06:20 PM   #61
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Re: Connection with the ground, Rooting, etc

Hello Alec,
Because of differing semantics and the variations in parsing out and training the principles and concepts, among the various internal arts, I find myself breaking down the processes I know to the simplest and most direct terms that I can. Even then, clear communication is a challenge, as you know.

In aikijujutsu as I know it (and also in the internal Chinese martial art I practice... at least, in my own experiences), the upper arm, down to the elbow, transmits or transfers force from the core ; the forearm directs that force (as do the fingers). You produce force elsewhere, deliver it to the limbs, and then, you can manipulate the "shape" of the limbs -- the bend of the elbows, the positioning and angles of hands and fingers, to direct where and how the power is delivered.

It's kind of like putting your thumb over the nozzle of a garden hose and changing the pressure and way the thumb covers and uncovers portions of the nozzle to direct the volume and amplitude of the water. The water doesn't itself come from the hose; it comes from an aquifer or other source, but is delivered by the hose to where you want the water to be, and how you want it distributed. Tiny "tweaks" and movements of the fingers in creating spiral "shapes" and trajectories, are an example of the manipulations of force coming from elsewhere in the body, to create myriad effects at the point of contact.

In essence, force and power come from the ground and body core, utilizing very specific groups of muscle, tendon and fascia, primarily. The arms and hands, in order to be able to transmit that force, must remain relaxed in the conventional muscles that normally are used to make power and movement. The arms are kept structured through complementary muscles and movements from elsewhere in the body other than the arms themselves and the deltoids. That way, their relaxed state can transmit force rather than become an obstacle to it due to tension; and, they can remain light at the point of contact so that the opponent can't "read" what your body is doing, while you can read what his is about to do.

This does not mean that the arms provide no power of their own; extension of the tendons and fascia in the fingers do add a measure that augments what comes from the core. An extending of the tissues of the upper arm to elbow is part of it, as well. There is also a measure of force added by the process that connects the arms to the body/core. But the relationship of ground, legs, kua/sokei orime and dantian/tanden-mingmen/meimon are foundational. The arms, IMO, are the bridge between ground and opponent's center of gravity/mass, when you wield a weapon or need to use your hands and arms in combat.

I agree with you that there doesn't have to be "one right way" to produce and direct force; however, I do believe that we are all limited to certain ways of creating this kind of power and its various effects. While the individual approaches and exercises can be vastly different, in my observation they must all abide by the same natural principles and physical laws, and the way the human body and bio-mechanics work with them.

Quote:
Alec Corper wrote: View Post
Hello Cady,
It seems to me you are referring to several things here. One is the great principle of "threes" as it manifests in root, branch and tip. Dividing the whole body according to that principle presents a diagram of both energy flow and structural manipulation. Thus the. Arms and legs are bows ( and pumps and springs) but so is the whole body. The hands and feet can be viewed and trained the same way, as is obvious in "plum blossom hand" in aiki age and aiki sage. Every finger has that property as well, producing multiple spirals.

Another factor is the order in which we build connections based upon the model or theory employed. I do not think that there is one right way, having seen, felt and trained in different systems. But I do believe that different people can find more, or less efficient methods for their initial engagement. As we progress we begin to be governed more by "the nature of things" to quote on your teachers, and less by our inherited or learned limitations.
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Old 04-04-2017, 11:40 PM   #62
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Re: Connection with the ground, Rooting, etc

Has this video been posted, yet? If not, it should be of interest, as everything he is doing depends on having good ground connection, in addition to the other body qualities necessary for internal power.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdJxd_du16M
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Old 04-05-2017, 12:17 AM   #63
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Re: Connection with the ground, Rooting, etc

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
Hello Alec,
Because of differing semantics and the variations in parsing out and training the principles and concepts, among the various internal arts, I find myself breaking down the processes I know to the simplest and most direct terms that I can. Even then, clear communication is a challenge, as you know.

In aikijujutsu as I know it (and also in the internal Chinese martial art I practice... at least, in my own experiences), the upper arm, down to the elbow, transmits or transfers force from the core ; the forearm directs that force (as do the fingers). You produce force elsewhere, deliver it to the limbs, and then, you can manipulate the "shape" of the limbs -- the bend of the elbows, the positioning and angles of hands and fingers, to direct where and how the power is delivered.

It's kind of like putting your thumb over the nozzle of a garden hose and changing the pressure and way the thumb covers and uncovers portions of the nozzle to direct the volume and amplitude of the water. The water doesn't itself come from the hose; it comes from an aquifer or other source, but is delivered by the hose to where you want the water to be, and how you want it distributed. Tiny "tweaks" and movements of the fingers in creating spiral "shapes" and trajectories, are an example of the manipulations of force coming from elsewhere in the body, to create myriad effects at the point of contact.

In essence, force and power come from the ground and body core, utilizing very specific groups of muscle, tendon and fascia, primarily. The arms and hands, in order to be able to transmit that force, must remain relaxed in the conventional muscles that normally are used to make power and movement. The arms are kept structured through complementary muscles and movements from elsewhere in the body other than the arms themselves and the deltoids. That way, their relaxed state can transmit force rather than become an obstacle to it due to tension; and, they can remain light at the point of contact so that the opponent can't "read" what your body is doing, while you can read what his is about to do.

This does not mean that the arms provide no power of their own; extension of the tendons and fascia in the fingers do add a measure that augments what comes from the core. An extending of the tissues of the upper arm to elbow is part of it, as well. There is also a measure of force added by the process that connects the arms to the body/core. But the relationship of ground, legs, kua/sokei orime and dantian/tanden-mingmen/meimon are foundational. The arms, IMO, are the bridge between ground and opponent's center of gravity/mass, when you wield a weapon or need to use your hands and arms in combat.

I agree with you that there doesn't have to be "one right way" to produce and direct force; however, I do believe that we are all limited to certain ways of creating this kind of power and its various effects. While the individual approaches and exercises can be vastly different, in my observation they must all abide by the same natural principles and physical laws, and the way the human body and bio-mechanics work with them.
Hello Cady
I believe we just agreed I was also,stating that power comes from core and is expressed in the torso and limbs. It is this fact that allows for Fa Jin. What I also tried to indicate is that bio- mechanical design is such that the functional manifestations are continually replicated. This means that movement in the core can be tweaked through the use of the three planes alternatively in each segment, but only within the framework of natural principles . This then becomes the key for looking at, and analyzing martial practice, at least without touch, and provides a bridge across semantic difficulties.

I'm without a desktop so my reply is short or I get bounced out of the site

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Old 04-05-2017, 01:13 AM   #64
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Re: Connection with the ground, Rooting, etc

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Has this video been posted, yet? If not, it should be of interest, as everything he is doing depends on having good ground connection, in addition to the other body qualities necessary for internal power.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdJxd_du16M
Personally much prefer this to bunny hopping and falling over partners.

https://youtu.be/eE2RucZ2jXY

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Old 04-05-2017, 01:40 AM   #65
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Re: Connection with the ground, Rooting, etc

And this one

https://youtu.be/wbWUWW57LOw

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Old 04-05-2017, 06:18 AM   #66
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Re: Connection with the ground, Rooting, etc

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Personally much prefer this to bunny hopping and falling over partners.

https://youtu.be/eE2RucZ2jXY
Liu Chengde's partner is very impressive. Even Liu can not move him easily and dramatically like the western guy's peng-lu-ji-an. However, defending is A LOT easier than attacking. 6 months are enough with proper solo training. Many famous aikido shihans are just the level of the western guy IMHO.

Jaemin
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Old 04-05-2017, 06:44 AM   #67
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Re: Connection with the ground, Rooting, etc

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Liu Chengde's partner is very impressive. Even Liu can not move him easily and dramatically like the western guy's peng-lu-ji-an. However, defending is A LOT easier than attacking. 6 months are enough with proper solo training. Many famous aikido shihans are just the level of the western guy IMHO.

Jaemin
Just so! Although your opinion is not so humble

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Old 04-05-2017, 08:14 AM   #68
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Re: Connection with the ground, Rooting, etc

Yeah, I'm not in as much favor of the over hoppy receptions that show up.

Cady, we'd have to meet to be sure, but I'd wager we're talking about two different things with regard to the qi/ki in the legs. Issuance of ground force and directing it with the body vs channeling and force multipliers of the tissues - and I'll leave it at that.

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Old 04-05-2017, 08:18 AM   #69
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Re: Connection with the ground, Rooting, etc

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Let's use rowing motion as an example. The movements comprising rowing motion are simple and can be learned in a matter of minutes.
I don't think so. That's why you see people doing it in a way that they move their upper body forward and back, using their hips to transfer weigth from back foot to front foot and back.
That's not what Ueshiba did, you see him turnig his body, using his body in a totally different way than you see most people do it.

Here is an interesting video, showing how the movent changed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2AjCGY9KRc
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Old 04-05-2017, 08:25 AM   #70
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Re: Connection with the ground, Rooting, etc

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Personally much prefer this to bunny hopping and falling over partners.
I love Liu Chengde. He has always been my favorite Chen-style person. Yeah, his partners provide great resistance and their reactions are honest.

Partners often are not perfect, but even with occasional pre-emptive "bunny hops," Damo Mitchell's (the guy in my clip) skills are legitimate, and there are cues in the video that show that the kuzushi is genuine.

Last edited by Cady Goldfield : 04-05-2017 at 08:30 AM.
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Old 04-05-2017, 08:29 AM   #71
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Re: Connection with the ground, Rooting, etc

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Yeah, I'm not in as much favor of the over hoppy receptions that show up.

Cady, we'd have to meet to be sure, but I'd wager we're talking about two different things with regard to the qi/ki in the legs. Issuance of ground force and directing it with the body vs channeling and force multipliers of the tissues - and I'll leave it at that.
Budd, I'd meet up with you anytime! Maybe circumstances will permit it, someday. I believe we are not speaking of different things, but of different parts of the same things. Like the blind guys and the elephant.
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Old 04-05-2017, 08:40 AM   #72
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Re: Connection with the ground, Rooting, etc

Well, ultimately they fit into the ontology of internal strength (I actually just used this in my presentation yesterday on Data Architecture at an industry conference), and agreed there still closely guarded unknowns, but in the general framework of Forces as a taxonomy (ground/gravity/person/other) what you're describing fits neatly in, whereas when I talk of the qi/ki, I'm typically referring (and I keep meaning to start a thread) to the tissue/bone/muscle/tendon connections which take much longer to develop in the body than the Intent/Force/Management, but ultimately make the body much more able to leverage the Forces taxonomy for measurable results.

Yes, they eventually come together and yes they are related within the ontology, but they are best, in my opinion, trained separately - similar to a sports team working offense, defense, special teams, passing, rushing, kicking, etc. instead of expecting it all to get worked out in a scrimmage.

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Old 04-05-2017, 10:04 AM   #73
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Re: Connection with the ground, Rooting, etc

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Budd, I'd meet up with you anytime! Maybe circumstances will permit it, someday. I believe we are not speaking of different things, but of different parts of the same things. Like the blind guys and the elephant.
When you guys work that out, can I come play too

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Old 04-05-2017, 01:31 PM   #74
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Re: Connection with the ground, Rooting, etc

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When you guys work that out, can I come play too
Definitely!
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Old 04-05-2017, 08:04 PM   #75
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Re: Connection with the ground, Rooting, etc

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Just so! Although your opinion is not so humble
Yes, not so humble. But that's why I've been into internal stuffs. And body changes suddenly like a baby suddenly begin to flip, crawl, stand, walk and run. IMH(or dare)O I doubt people who doesn't talk about these changes first.

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