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Old 08-15-2002, 10:57 AM   #51
Erik
Location: Bay Area
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The other Erik with a K wrote some stuff which seemed strange to me.
Quote:
Erik Jurrien Knoops (erikknoops) wrote:
We dont claim to be a perfect country ourselves, we are just like any other country struggling along wih the problems of modern life and modern society and in this process we have our successes but also a fair share of mistakes and failures.
This is exactly how I see my country.
Quote:
Still we are often attacked/threatend or do feel attacked/threatend by American TV, individual american citizens or even US Government.
I think you need to realize that this country does not speak with one voice. No doubt you do feel attacked but as I'm about to point out I feel the same way at times. The current regime has many beliefs and values which to be frank, terrify me.
Quote:
-We are attacked for showing educational programs about sex, relations, responsibilities and life aimed at teenagers on prime time TV. Our country has one of the lowest rates of teenage pregnancies in the western world.
I have no problems with this and again a very vocal minority is speaking here.
Quote:
-We are attacked for having abortions legal in our country. We have one of the lowest rates of abortions in the western countries. (Including those countries were abortions are illegal.)
Abortion is legal here. It's the same vocal minority speaking out again.
Quote:
-We are attacked for having a different policy on drugs (which, contrary to common belief, does not mean doing drugs is legal, but in specific well described cases the law is deliberately not acted upon) and by having this policy has eliminated a lot of drugrelated crimes. (BTW, drug addicts are often considered sick people that need help)
I would have no problems with this.
Quote:
-Firearms are completely illegal in our country. The number of murders is something like 300 on 16 million, most of them taken up by "ordinary" household murders anyway.
This is not something nearly as simple as you imply but it would not bother me if guns went away.
Quote:
-Our society is relatively safe and you consedered the police your friend.
They are the enemy? I feel relatively safe all things considered. I don't feel safe in certain areas but are there places in your country or Europe where you would not feel safe?
Quote:
-We would not dream of trying to pass a law that allows and justifies us to invade a ally in peacetime!
I'm guessing your military might makes this a non-issue but what are you talking about? I presume you mean the US but as far as I know Iraq is not on the friendly list. For what it's worth, I think it's the last thing we should do.

But help me out. When was the last time the US invaded a country and kept the territory? I feel like I'm missing something obvious but I can't think of any. I think we've made a number of bad choices and decisions but the effort was noble and humanitarian in it's way as well.

We did hit Afghanistan but I think they drew a line there that needed crossing. I certainly wouldn't call that an invasion.
Quote:
Just a little rant.
No problem here. The other Erik with a K does it all the time.

Last edited by Erik : 08-15-2002 at 11:46 AM.
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Old 08-15-2002, 11:12 AM   #52
AikiAlf
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I think I know what peace means:

Righteousness:

Main Entry: righ·teous

Pronunciation: 'rI-ch&s

Function: adjective

Etymology: alter. of earlier rightuous, alteration of Middle English rightwise, rightwos, from Old English rihtwIs, from riht, noun, right + wIs wise

Date: 1535

1 : acting in accord with divine or moral law : free from guilt or sin

2 a : morally right or justifiable <a righteous decision> b : arising from an outraged sense of justice or morality <righteous indignation>

3 slang : GENUINE, GOOD

synonym see MORAL

I understand righteousness as aception 2b , but in all definitions,

peace and righteousness are not opposites or part of the same definition.

I think acting in outraged sense of justice or morality may not lead to peace.. depending on what your morality is.

The Taliban are righteous in their belief. Is that good? The current US. gov't uses righteous rhetoric which irritates the hell out of other people who don't see all of the current US gov't's actions as moral. Some of the people in the current and previous administrations have been exposed as immoral to the eyes of the world, which reinforces that idea.

So I think you can be righteous for peace , or you can be righteous for war. It don't lead to the same end.

I also think you can put peace above righteousness ; and when christians say that nuking 2 million people was ok because it avoided greater loss , they do that. On the other hand you can feel righteous about it if you have a utilitarian morality..

Righteousness is tricky I don't trust it nor people who profess it.
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Old 08-15-2002, 01:15 PM   #53
erikmenzel
 
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Dear Erik Haselhofer,

I understand that having a unified voice for one country is impossible to ask. Yet it seems from our point of view that the part of US citizens that object to all several parts of Dutch law and society are not just a small majority. We judge the US and its people on what we see and hear. And our sources are not limited to just Jerry Springer or Oprah.

Be it that just a very vocal minority objects to different parts of dutch law and society then it is for dutch people very difficult to understand why the voice of this minority is in some respects the same as the official US government.

In this respect the US is judged by its actions and unfortunatly the current government has done so many things that are from our point of view considered strange, weird and even outrageous.

The US does not participate in the Kyoto agreement.

The US government stopped all funding to projects in the third world that could not proof the were not connected to abortion. (Which knowing the situation in most subsaharan countries would mean no hospital, health center or docters post can recieve any funding because in those countries they just have one clinic that takes care of all.) So this means among others no money for the battle against AIDS if existing healthcare structures are used.

The US government does not intent to become a party in the treaty concerning the international criminal court.

The US government trying to pass a law that allows and justifies eventual future invasion of The Netherlands, a trusted NATO partner and supporting ally in several conflicts, is not only something that is frowned upon. It also caused a big dent in the trust dutch people have in the US.

Lots of tings about the US are good, but not all. Just because we dont agree with some things does not mean we are the enemy.

Last edited by erikmenzel : 08-15-2002 at 01:28 PM.

Erik Jurrien Menzel
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Old 08-15-2002, 01:56 PM   #54
virginia_kyu
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Actually no...

I had begun to try to counter the many aruments that had been posted above until I realized what is going on here.

This topic has been torn into a million different directions (abortion, drug policies, global warming, etc..) that have nothing to do with with what we were discussing. I would be happy to discuss any of these with you on another thread but please to not attempt to change the subject.

The introduction of all of this other stuff has the effect (perhaps intentionally) of shutting down the discussion.

Last edited by virginia_kyu : 08-15-2002 at 02:17 PM.

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Old 08-15-2002, 02:09 PM   #55
Tijmen Ramakers
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Quote:
Erik Haselhofer (Erik) wrote:
I'm guessing your military might makes this a non-issue but what are you talking about?
Our military might? Where? )

I think Erik Knoops is referring to the US opposition to the ICC. As part of that opposition a law was approved by which the US grants itself the right to invade the Netherlands to free any US soldiers that might be held by the ICC.

Also, this opposition is seen as yet another sign of US egocentrism, since, combined with its actions to 'spread freedom and democracy' elsewhere, the US is effectively saying "we are never wrong, we are above international law, and we can force our will onto others whenever we like it".

I believe the US have now taken a different approach, though, by making individual countries (under threat of economical sanctions) declare they refuse to hand over US soldiers to the ICC. Divide et impera...
Quote:
But help me out. When was the last time the US invaded a country and kept the territory? I feel like I'm missing something obvious but I can't think of any. I think we've made a number of bad choices and decisions but the effort was noble and humanitarian in it's way as well.
It is my believe that the effort was noble and humanitarian on television, but economically and strategically beneficial in reality.

Instead of thinking in terms of territory, it may be better to think in terms of economical, political or strategical power.

I think this applies to Quwayt as well as Afghanistan.

My view of the US is that it's more and more governed by companies and money,

not by people.

Also, it may just be that the US is lacking a counterpart. If only the EU were a bit more of a unity... (although I fear that prospect even more sometimes...)

[even more offtopic]

As an example of the humanitarian face of the US: Why is (was?) there such a strong oppostion to some pharmaceutical companies providing cheap drugs to the African countries, where millions are dying of AIDS? Patents can't be the issue, can it? I mean, it only took 4 US victims to force Bayer to sell its anthrax serum patent for $1...

[/even more offtopic]

Tijmen
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Old 08-15-2002, 02:51 PM   #56
Richard Harnack
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Re: Peace & Righteousness

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
I was out at the Teddy Roosevelt Memorial this morning and Wash DC and saw a quote that got me thinking. Roosevelt said that if he had to choose between righteousness and peace, he would choose righteousness.
Mohandas K. Gandhi and Martin Luther King, Jr. both address this very issue. For each Truth and Justice are primary pursuits with the long term goal of establishing peace. Their chosen modalities were Non-Violent Action. Their goal was always Justice/Righteousness.

TR's postulation of preferring Righteousness to Peace does not mean he did not want peace, but rather he did not want peace at any cost.

Unfortunately, many know-nothings make the leap from this understanding (or lack of) to the postulation that peace is not possible therefore we might as well just go ahead and "fight the good fight". This represents an essentially lazy and easily pursued violent view.

By the way, Gandhi's Truth held within it Justice & Righteousness.

Yours In Aiki,
Richard Harnack
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Old 08-15-2002, 03:33 PM   #57
Bruce Baker
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3K of history

Come on guys, review your history of conflict.

Vietnam and most countrys surrounding China are considered protectorates of China, or outlying provinces depending on the trade, and buffer zones required for that particular period.

As for the industrial pollution, that is due to the shortsightedness of the fossil fuel era, and population density. We have yet to realize that humanity is destroying the fragile balance of nature. Even now, the population centers are becoming limited in space, water supply, and our own pollution is going to kill or mutate most of our gggrandchildren if we don't get with the program.

Natural recyclable materials or limiting the chemical pollution we allow for the industrial growth is becoming the investment future in third world, which is the crime of the century.

As pollution laws become sticter in industrial affluent countries, the industrys see to find countrys with little to no industry, few industrial pollution laws, and again resume their polluting ways.

Knowing doesn't change it, nor does keeping it to yourself.

Get your butt in gear, learn what is going on in YOUR world, and do something about it.

Most of us are just pawns if the greater game of international business and weasel dealings as we try to get a little bit ahead with each weeks paycheck, but we do have the opportunity to learn, speak our words, and change the world.

If you use the same zeal you have for learning Aikido to learn about the total true picture of how the world is run, who runs it, who makes the deals, and what motivates them to do such atrocious things in the name of progress, then you are armed and ready to change the world into a somewhat balanced and peaceful place that O'Sensei was alluding to.

Just like using other martial arts in many of the openings from Aikido movements, there is no one school to gather all knowledge from.

So, review your history of conflict in Viet Nam when you start whining how it was a losing proposition, review the rise and fall of nations over the known three thousand years of recorded history, and don't forget to review the rise of industrial societys since the late 1800s.

Once we entered the fossil fuel era, we maintained a course that was doomed to destruction ... if we don't change our ways.

Hopefully, as you see the multitude of variations in Aikido, your mind will construct the true picture from all the small truths you have experienced in the industrial society. When you start to look around, then you will come to some of the conclusions I have.

Meanwhile, question, practice Aikido, keep the peace.
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Old 08-15-2002, 03:43 PM   #58
virginia_kyu
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See you all later on another thread, this one has changed directions and has been hijacked.

Last edited by virginia_kyu : 08-15-2002 at 04:39 PM.

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Old 08-15-2002, 06:30 PM   #59
Neil Mick
Dojo: Aikido of Santa Cruz
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With all due respect to Michael Neal: all of these discussions are on-topic, because they all relate to the participation of the U.S. in world affairs.

**********************************************

Recently I have given much thought to the U.S. involvement in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict (really the US-Israeli/Palestinian conflict, because we are as much a participant in Palestinian suffering, as is Israel).

Until last March, I was largely ignorant of the details of the situation: I believed that the peace process was delayed because of the intransigence of the leaders involved.

What got me interested was the reports of Israeli soldiers shooting unarmed Palestinians using weapons supplied by the U.S. I also heard about the effect the international observers had in lessening the violence. I resolved to go to Palestine (with a group) as an international observer.

I also wanted to go to dojos in Jerusalem (the dojo web search lists 6 of them) and ask the members there how they felt about the violence perpetrated in their name...what was their approach to lessening the violence, when they had to deal with it on a daily basis (not to mention the constant fear of being blown to bits)? How does Aikido change the way they think about the conflict, and their role in it?

To make a long story short: I never made it to the first Israeli dojo. I was detained at the airport in Tel Aviv, held in a cell for 21 hours, labeled a supporter of Arafat and the PLO (by both Israeli customs and the American consul; a false accusation) and shipped back on the first plane.

The action was a failure, but the question remains: what role do we, as practitioners of an art of harmony and peace, have in ending violence committed in our name? What role do we, as seekers of peace, play in stopping the violence...even as that violence occurs when we do nothing?
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Old 08-15-2002, 10:02 PM   #60
virginia_kyu
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Neil, the topic was clearly changed to something else but I really don't want to sit here argue about that anymore.

I would like to say that there is one thing that the United States has done horribly wrong. That is we have been too generous to the rest of the world so now much of it has become too dependent on us. Now instead of dealing with their own problems they blame us everything that goes wrong so they can weisel a few more bucks from us.

I belive most of these arguments against the U.S. are pure utter nonsense and If I had nothing but free time to dispute them all I would.

I also thank God that most of the U.S. does not agree with these sentiments. It really feel like I am at a socialist convention or something

Last edited by virginia_kyu : 08-15-2002 at 10:18 PM.

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Old 08-15-2002, 11:12 PM   #61
guest1234
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Hi Erik and Tijmen,

Hey, I wouldn't let these guys knock your military...guys in ponytails with earrings can be pretty tough... I recall once walking back from the jet with my pilot on the Deci ramp. With my helmet off after a flight, the braid I would tuck down the back of my flight suit at the start had come out and my har was being blown by the wind. A Lt Col. from the TJ squadron passed us, and jokingly said "hey, Capt., get a haircut" ... my pilot proudly pointed to the orange wreath around our squadron patch and announced "we're the Dutch ANG, we don't need haircuts".

Seriously, I recall stopping to treat someone the third day of Neimejgen (spelled wrong?), getting separated from my group, and marching with Dutch marines while looking for my own folks. Not so sure we should be making light of invading Den Hague.

My first week in NL, I was told by someone that 'the Dutch are the social conscience of the world' and I found that to be so true.

Oh, and the minority voice becomes the offical voice throught the miracle of the electoral college.
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Old 08-16-2002, 12:01 AM   #62
SeiserL
 
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The US may not always be right, but most of the world turns to it for leadership, assistance, and protection. While I don't believe in global policing, I do believe in helping our neighbors and hope they would apprecite our efforts. If we are so bad, why do so many people want to come her or imitate us?

I agree that we got off the topic of peace versus righteousness as philosophical generalization and started to blame the US. And, I agree we are to blame for some things. We are not a perfect nation. But I am proud of the US. I hope everyone is proud of their country and proud of themselves.

Until again,

Lynn

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 08-16-2002, 02:39 AM   #63
Neil Mick
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This question I posted above is not about "my country right or wrong;" its about practical application of a principle we all study.

To put my question in a more general context: how do you reconcile your Aikido beliefs of practicing harmony in a world filled with conflict? How do you take Aikido "off the mat?"
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Old 08-16-2002, 03:41 AM   #64
Johan
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Some of what I was trying to say may have been taken out of context. I'm not trying to bash the US, but I believe honest observation of our selves as individuals and larger communities is necessary for growth towards any goal be it peace or some other. I love my own country but I may not always love the actions that my leaders perform. The same goes for the US. If a patriot is said to truly love their country they will acknowledge their perceived mistakes in order to learn from them. Deliberately ignoring them seems to be more conducive to encouraging a regressive society. The same can be seen in so many Aiki dojos across our country. How many people do you meet in Aikido have stagnated their own training because of their own ego refusing to allow them to learn?

On the subject of peace vs righteousness I believe that on a global scale it can be very difficult to judge right and wrong, and further when politics or ego are involved, what is right one day may be wrong the next.

For those that believe they are beyond ego I guess this doesn't concern them, but for the rest of us I think that it is important to consider the motive behind our actions or reactions. How much of what we do is because we are trying to create peace and how much of what we do is because we want to be right?
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Old 08-16-2002, 06:29 AM   #65
Ecosamurai
 
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Quote:
Michael Neal (virginia_kyu) wrote:
Neil, the topic was clearly changed to something else but I really don't want to sit here argue about that anymore.

I would like to say that there is one thing that the United States has done horribly wrong. That is we have been too generous to the rest of the world so now much of it has become too dependent on us. Now instead of dealing with their own problems they blame us everything that goes wrong so they can weisel a few more bucks from us.

I belive most of these arguments against the U.S. are pure utter nonsense and If I had nothing but free time to dispute them all I would.

I also thank God that most of the U.S. does not agree with these sentiments. It really feel like I am at a socialist convention or something
I agree with some of the points you've made previously, I believe that to fight is necessary, becasue when it comes right down to it, everyone fights everyday for even the smallest of things.

But you must concede that the rest of the world is not the US, and though the sort of society that exists in the US is ok for Americans, it may not me desirable to other people in the world.

So you must see that even the best intentioned interferance is still interferance and as such not going to be happily received.

In many situations the actions of the US have been good actions, intended at protecting the welfare of other people as the US sees it, but not everyone agrees with the US view of what is best for others.

Yes the US has been generous, but it has also meddled.

Personally as a Brit I find I have little problem with US influence over here, I would however like to see multinational fast food companies got rid of, but that is a matter of personal preference.

It just seems that the US is enforcing a Pax Romana with military and economic might sometimes. The difficulty is in deciding if the US Pax Romana is righteous or not. How you could begin to decide that I have no idea.

Mike Haft

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."
-Martin Luther King Jr
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Old 08-16-2002, 07:14 AM   #66
erikmenzel
 
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Hi Colleen,

are you a pilot? I always thought you were a medical doctor.

As for our militairy might, we dont think of them as much, but this is not due to their capabilities but more to the kind of power we are used to. Of course some of the things our navy can provide are highly appreciated by our allies, such as minesweeping and anti-missle ship defenses. However, the Netherlands is much more comfortable with economical power and because we have always been and still are a trading country it is often in our best interest to use this power in a subtile way. Even so subtile lots of people dont even know what kind of things or companies are owned by the dutch anyway.

As you know from living in our country, dutch people have a somewhat different perspective on the world than for instance Americans do, but this is probably also due to the nature of the country and its history.

I personally hope to visit the US sometimes and meet different kind of people, because to understand the people of a country having been there would definitly help. Maybe some summercamp in the future would be nice.

As for a lot of the confusion in this thread: Maybe some people are far more sensitive for the thin line between righteousness and self-righteousness. Maybe some people are even unaware of crossing this line anyaway.

Last edited by erikmenzel : 08-16-2002 at 07:18 AM.

Erik Jurrien Menzel
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Old 08-16-2002, 10:09 AM   #67
Brian H
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Big kid on the block

Why does everybody bash the US? It is because we are an "enlightened" nation.

When there is conflict or suffering in the world we run to help and spend our treasure freely. Many nations have a significant portion of their economy paid for or guaranteed by the US tax payer.

People were starving in Somalia, so we sent in the Marines to make it safe for the UN to set up feeding systems. (lots of food was going into Somalia prior to that. It was just being seized and exported by the war lords to fund themselves). The Marines were withdrawn and a new president came into office. Then some rock scientist decided a few hundred American commandos could solve all of Somalia's problems in six weeks with a "leadership change." Then we got our asses handed to us and the out gunned soldiers were withdrawn quickly.

Lessons learned by the badguys: "America has a big heart and no balls."

Results for the goodguys: America sat on its hands when inter-tribal conflicts turned into genocide in West Africa(the inevitable result of EUROPE abandoning its colonies in the sixties with a lot of help from Soviet meddling). Then when EUROPE cried about genocide on its door step we bombed the Serbs from 15,000 feet (three miles up), that makes it hard to tell the difference between a refugee and a soldier, but limits American casualties. See "Lessons learned by the badguys" above.

Will we make mistakes in the on going war on terror? : HELL YES!!! (especially in a part of the world where 20mm cannons are used as party favors at weddings) Will there be unintended consequences? HELL YES !!! (Very scary when dealing with wackos with weapons of mass destruction)

The world is full of people who have hated each other for centuries and when the diplomats try to talk to both sides they both end up in conflict with the US (Your homework essay: "Solving the Arab/Israeli conflict now" (25 words or less)

Many of these conflicts make little sense to outsiders (a friend of mine who spent a year peacekeeping in Kosivo said you could only tell the difference between the Christians and the Muslims was by the color of their shoes...everybody has a uniform)

World peace? A lot of Americans have died trying (and a lot of innocents have died when we didn't).

Minor rant: If the US is the "worlds biggest polluter" then why is it that all of the public monuments of Europe are quickly desolving?
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Old 08-16-2002, 12:28 PM   #68
Abasan
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Brian, your monologue on US's involvement in Somalia must have come straight from Blackhawkdown, which incidently only showed the story from the US's point of view.

Prior to that, US stirred the hornets nest by gunning down/blowing up a meeting where most of the warlords from the different factions were suing for peace. Unintentionly of course. Of course a few civilians died. But hey it was a mistake, the US was sorry.

They did a few more of those mistakes apparently. By the way, it wasn't just pakistanis who save the marines that day. Malaysian troops helped saved them too. Would have arrived sooner if US army didn't insist that we stay out of it. (it was a US action not a NATO one). But since the US army didn't know how to use our vehicles, we had the final say so on the go at last. One of our soldiers died that day, rescuing marines who had no business there. Did we get a mention? Nope... how do I know this? My uncle was the general in charge of the Malaysian team.

And now the US wants all their troops to be exempt from war crimes tribunal? Figures...

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Old 08-16-2002, 02:30 PM   #69
Brian H
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Quote:
ahmad abas (Abasan) wrote:
Brian, your monologue on US's involvement in Somalia must have come straight from Blackhawkdown, which incidently only showed the story from the US's point of view.

Prior to that, US stirred the hornets nest by gunning down/blowing up a meeting where most of the warlords from the different factions were suing for peace. Unintentionly of course. Of course a few civilians died. But hey it was a mistake, the US was sorry.

They did a few more of those mistakes apparently.
Yes, but ...

The book is far more comprehensive than the movie. It goes into great detail about the missile attack on the meeting. It just lays out the facts and uses a lot of direct interviews with people directly involved (including Somalians). I would be very surprised if it did not touch on the Malaysian role (don't have the book at hand).

The first American mission is Somalia was a success - food got to the people.

The second, including shooting of a large number of TOW missiles into a building where a gathering of Somali leaders, was a total failure. We were playing cops and robbers with the Somalian clans. It was a very good men sent to execute a very bad plan.

When our troops got into trouble, the only available option was to spend eighteen hours shooting it out with the Somalis until an ad hoc team (including Malaysian troops) to come get them.

Nobody had a real problem with the original mission (20,000 marines supporting civilian feeding systems). But was when we started playing clan politics with one twentieth the troops and dropping light infantry unsupported into an urban area that we ran into trouble. People in Washington just wanted to save the day in Africa, but didn't want pictures of big scary tanks on CNN. So our troops had to bleed and die while a rescue plan was put together (you just don't drive into combat without a plan - the solution would have been as bad as the problem)

End result: the US pulled out, the UN pulled out and Somalia still suffers. Aiki : we failed to irimi deeply and our atemi was poor (we killed several thousand people with no gain) and uke (not enemy, after all we went there to stop a famine amid a civil war) was able to unbalance nage. Then nage ran from the mat instead of moving on to another technique that might have worked.

The only true failure is giving up. And that is exactly what we did.

The soldiers who fought in Somalia have nothing to be ashamed of and don't belong in any "world courts", .... but the Washington side of the opperation (like Les Aspin) are a different story.

Evil triumphs when good men do nothing
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Old 08-16-2002, 08:56 PM   #70
virginia_kyu
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Amen Brian

-- Michael Neal
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Old 08-17-2002, 01:01 AM   #71
Neil Mick
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...and when we bombed the Sudanese Al-Shifra pharmacy that supplied half of Sudan with medicine (but we called it a terrorist laboratory: a claim still unsubstantiated with any evidence by the gov't), was THAT Aiki? The fact that Somali's today are STILL suffering from a lack of common medicines,,,is THAT Aiki?
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Old 08-17-2002, 08:09 AM   #72
Ecosamurai
 
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Re: Big kid on the block

Quote:
Brian Heanue (BRIAN H) wrote:
Why does everybody bash the US? It is because we are an "enlightened" nation.

I've never seen anything that suggests to me that the US is an enlightened nation, certainly no more enlightened than any other. This of course depends on your definition of 'enlightened'.

FWIW I agree with most of what you said in this post except this bit:

Minor rant: If the US is the "worlds biggest polluter" then why is it that all of the public monuments of Europe are quickly desolving?
This tells me that you have absolutely no concept of what pollution actually is, acidification which disolves statues made of limestone is only one form of pollution. Check the data if you don't believe me, if you want links then I'm sure I can dig some out for you.

America is the most polluting nation on earth. Closely followed by a few EU countries (most notably the UK).

Mike Haft

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."
-Martin Luther King Jr
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Old 08-17-2002, 08:11 AM   #73
Ecosamurai
 
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Oops, I cocked that reply up, sorry, some of the stuff in the quote box I wrote not Brian, it should be obvious once you read it.

Mike

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."
-Martin Luther King Jr
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Old 08-17-2002, 09:04 AM   #74
Erik
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I was gonna stay out of the rest of this. Thanks to a couple of folks for clarification on an earlier post.

However, someone decreed:
Quote:
Michael Haft (Ecosamurai) wrote:
America is the most polluting nation on earth. Closely followed by a few EU countries (most notably the UK).
If you measure by volume then I believe you are correct. If you measure by other methods, such as gross domestic product the results differ.
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Old 08-17-2002, 10:03 PM   #75
virginia_kyu
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Some of this environmentalist stuff is very amusing to read.

-- Michael Neal
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