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Old 12-21-2009, 07:10 AM   #51
Flintstone
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Re: Bending bones!

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Uke attacks.
Nage (tori) responds by blending and taking complete control of uke ( kuzushi).
At this point uke should not have any ability to do anything.
It is all under nage's control.

Unless you are not training for martial effectiveness.

David
+1 and amen to that.
 
Old 12-21-2009, 09:50 AM   #52
RED
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Re: Bending bones!

Quote:
Michael Gelum wrote: View Post
Ms Schill,

If taisabaki and kuzushi are realized, uke is "just a hunk of meat", whether they are a trained martial artist or not.

Train well,

Mickey
That is an incorrect assumption.
 
Old 12-21-2009, 09:51 AM   #53
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Re: Bending bones!

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
So, if uke is not "an intelligent, practiced and commited martial artist", our Aikido won't work? That's a no buy for me. Also, your BIG assumption is that uke will blend, keep connection and look for a suki. What about an intelligent, practiced and commited martial artist that breaks, create space, look for a suki and hits? Your assumption is, most probably, that uke is an aikidoka too, not an IPCMA.
I don't think we are speaking of the same training aspect at all.
 
Old 12-21-2009, 10:16 AM   #54
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Re: Bending bones!

I do take issue with a dojo that doesn't train Uke to also be a martial artist. Uke shouldn't be easy to throw after all, not a hunk of meat waiting to receive the technique. They should be attacking Nage's center to the ground. Uke is assumed to be a Budo trained martial artist. The assumptions any standing jujitsu, Aikido included views the attacker in this sense. Aikijujitsu is our father art. The assumption there is that you are a Budoka that lost his sword, defending against an army of armed men. Thus Uke is trained to react and attack like a Budo trained attacker.
I have issue with a dojo that doesn't view Uke as a martial artist, counter part to the Nage.
 
Old 12-21-2009, 10:36 AM   #55
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Re: Bending bones!

Just DO NOT assume! What you are describing is uke as an Aikidoka, not as a trained martial artist! Would you describe a Kali fighter, BJJer, karateka, fencer as a "non trained martial artist"? None of them will "keep the connection with the palm of their hands"...

I do train in Aikijujutsu Yoseikan Ha and we DO NOT assume that uke will keep the connection. Never. It is TORI who will keep the connection, no matter what uke does or tries to do. Irimi, atemi, kuzushi... and then tsukiri and kake are just the icing on the cake. Should you assume uke will "keep the connection", what will you do if he doesn't?

No assumptions, please.

Last edited by Flintstone : 12-21-2009 at 10:39 AM.
 
Old 12-21-2009, 10:40 AM   #56
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Re: Bending bones!

Quote:
Maggie Schill wrote: View Post
I don't think we are speaking of the same training aspect at all.
Most probably. I'm talking Budo.
 
Old 12-21-2009, 12:00 PM   #57
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Re: Bending bones!

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
Most probably. I'm talking Budo.
We are not talking about the same aspect of training, there must be a 'communication' issue here. You don't seem to be familiar with what I mean when I say the word "assumption" in relation to a martial art.

Either way, I can tell what a wonderful Aikidoka by your ability to communicate peacefully.

I'm not fighting with you, I'll let you be right, if you just piss off.

Last edited by RED : 12-21-2009 at 12:05 PM.
 
Old 12-21-2009, 12:06 PM   #58
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Re: Bending bones!

Quote:
Quote:
Michael Gelum wrote:
Ms Schill,

If taisabaki and kuzushi are realized, uke is "just a hunk of meat", whether they are a trained martial artist or not.

Train well,

Mickey

Maggie Schill wrote:

That is an incorrect assumption.
Ms Schill,

No wonder no one wants to train with you. You have'nt a clue.

Mickey
 
Old 12-21-2009, 12:11 PM   #59
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Re: Bending bones!

Quote:
Michael Gelum wrote: View Post
Ms Schill,

No wonder no one wants to train with you. You have'nt a clue.

Mickey
it's cool dude.
 
Old 12-21-2009, 12:27 PM   #60
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Re: Bending bones!

Let's all just calm down and before someone gets hurt.....please...put...down...the....keyboards.

Hi Maggie

I hope you don't mind if I call you Maggie? I'm not trying to pick a fight with you, but I am curious about what you mean by "assumptions". Perhaps there is some confusion in terminology, or perhaps there is some confusion between the purpose of sensitivity excercises and practical applications? What do you think? Could you elaborate? Thanks.

Last edited by Stormcrow34 : 12-21-2009 at 12:41 PM.
 
Old 12-21-2009, 12:36 PM   #61
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Re: Bending bones!

Quote:
Michael Crowell wrote: View Post
Hey let's just all calm down and before someone gets hurt.....please...put...down...the....keyboards.

Hi Maggie

I'm not trying to pick a fight with you, but I am curious about what you mean by "assumptions". Could you elaborate? Thanks.
Hi,

I was taught that every martial art was designed with a set of assumptions. Meaning every martial art reacts and does what it does, based upon what it was designed to fight against. Example, some karate arts take low stances because they assume the fighting is done on mountainous areas. In Aikido we don't wrestle on the ground like BJJ because there is an assumption that the uke is armed, and we are not. That assumption comes from the roots of aikijujitsu. The word assumption is referring to the reason in which a martial art was designed the way it was, for the purposes it was designed for. Aikido is no different. We have an assumption that Uke is not an idiot, or a thing you throw. In the traditional sense, Uke was trained in Budo. Therefore, I believe dojo should train Uke as martial artists, not just train them as bean bags for Nage.

The connection training I was talking about is what we do for children and 7th kyu, to teach them how to keep up with movement, for the purpose of never falling behind(which can cause you to be dominated) and for the purpose of creating openings for the Uke to get ahead of a technique so they can counter.

Last edited by RED : 12-21-2009 at 12:40 PM.
 
Old 12-21-2009, 01:19 PM   #62
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Re: Bending bones!

I think I understand what you're saying. But I have to agree with some of the others here that assumptions in terms of practical application are bad. Period.

I know when I practice Jiyu Randori (free randori) if I try to anticipate what an attack will be from uke and decide in advance my technique for said anticipated attack...well things don't usually work out so well. BUT, if I stay in the moment and act as things are unfolding, I usually do ok because I have not made an assumption and I am responding to what is actually happening, not what I think will happen.

Here is a video of a highly skilled brazilian fighter. What would you assume about this guy before watching the video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GE9ug4IWJn4

Last edited by Stormcrow34 : 12-21-2009 at 01:33 PM.
 
Old 12-21-2009, 01:24 PM   #63
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Re: Bending bones!

Whether uke is "an intelligent, practiced and committed martial artist"or he is not, once uke attacks, if his balance is broken and nage takes control. Uke should not have any choice or ability to maintain a connection. Only nage has that.

If there is no or incomplete kuzushi then there is an opportunity for uke to become nage by being physically sensitive to nage's failure to have complete kuzushi. In this sense there is value of the sensitivity training you are talking about.

David
( you don't have to call me Mr. Mitty, just call me Walter )

Last edited by dps : 12-21-2009 at 01:28 PM.
 
Old 12-21-2009, 01:44 PM   #64
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Re: Bending bones!

Quote:
Michael Crowell wrote: View Post
I think I understand what you're saying. But I have to agree with some of the others here that assumptions in terms of practical application are bad. Period.

I know when I practice Jiyu Randori (free randori) if I try to anticipate what an attack will be from uke and decide in advance my technique for said anticipated attack...well things don't usually work out so well. BUT, if I stay in the moment and act as things are unfolding, I usually do ok because I have not made an assumption and I am responding to what is actually happening, not what I think will happen.

Here is a video of a highly skilled brazilian fighter. What would you assume about this guy before watching the video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GE9ug4IWJn4
I agree with this principle as far as an experienced Aikidoka. Experience Aikidoka need to be trained in intuitive response, and that is the beauty in giwaza training. I never said the word "assumption" as in we assume how the uke is gonna attack. I meant it in reference to how the art was established, and why it was established. All arts are based on elemental assumptions.
However when I brought this training connection practice up, it was in reference to the 7th kyu that was bending the poor girl's bones. Again, I introduced it as something we do for children and beginners to train in proper connection.
 
Old 12-21-2009, 01:47 PM   #65
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Re: Bending bones!

Quote:
Michael Crowell wrote: View Post
Well, if a guy attacked me and brought an octagon ring with him, that would be a dead give away of his intentions lol
 
Old 12-21-2009, 01:51 PM   #66
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Re: Bending bones!

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post

If there is no or incomplete kuzushi then there is an opportunity for uke to become nage by being physically sensitive to nage's failure to have complete kuzushi. In this sense there is value of the sensitivity training you are talking about.
I think the source of the confusion is that Maggie is thinking in terms sensitivity training and some of the others here and myself are thinking in terms of martial effectiveness.

I'm not sure if confusing these two aspects of training and their purpose is ever a good idea.
 
Old 12-21-2009, 01:56 PM   #67
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Re: Bending bones!

Quote:
Michael Crowell wrote: View Post
I think the source of the confusion is that Maggie is thinking in terms sensitivity training and some of the others here and myself are thinking in terms of martial effectiveness.

I'm not sure if confusing these two aspects of training and their purpose is ever a good idea.
Exactly. LOL Again, this was an exercise we do with children and 7th kyus... not experienced black belts.(Then again, you are never too experienced to work on basics from time to time.)
 
Old 12-21-2009, 01:57 PM   #68
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Re: Bending bones!

Quote:
Maggie Schill wrote: View Post
Well, if a guy attacked me and brought an octagon ring with him, that would be a dead give away of his intentions lol
Hello again Maggie. My point is that Lyoto Machida is Brazillian, but his dad is a Japanese Shotokan karate sensei and he uses mostly stand up tactics to win his fights with great results...

Last edited by Stormcrow34 : 12-21-2009 at 02:00 PM.
 
Old 12-21-2009, 01:59 PM   #69
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Re: Bending bones!

Quote:
Michael Crowell wrote: View Post
Hello again Maggie. My point is that Lyoto Machida is Brazillian, but his dad is a Japanese Shotokan karate sensei and he uses mostly stand up tactics to win his fights with great results...
 
Old 12-21-2009, 02:29 PM   #70
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Re: Bending bones!

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Uke attacks.
Nage (tori) responds by blending and taking complete control of uke ( kuzushi).
At this point uke should not have any ability to do anything.
It is all under nage's control.

Unless you are not training for martial effectiveness.

David
I think this makes a nice ideal, but isnt there a gradient at play here? Or can we perhaps think of some form of "quasi-kuzushi" which allows someone in a superior position/structure, to maintain initiative?

At any rate, I've felt similar sensations as expressed by the OP. I've tended to just give my arm away as nage and with certain folks this has led to feelings like my bone bending or of muscle wanting to pull away from the bone. My best response was to blend internally...not that I have any real sense of what that means, just that I took a moment to "recenter" myself which involved both relaxing and activation. I wasn't able to completely make the pain go away, but it did seem to diminish slightly.
Personally I see no harm in saying, "my arm really hurts, can we try this with less intensity?" Different schools have different attitudes on this though. In my inexpert view, there is a fine line between the pain that is useful and the pain that is harmful, but it's important to walk that line a bit in a serious study of budo; to become familiar with the difference. It's hard to develop an injured part of the body because whatever is injured cannot be used fully. It may help you to connect with and improve other parts (the value of working through the pain in my mind), but I'd personally rather be viewed as a sissy than to have an injury. When I played soccer in highschool it was on astroturf and I'm about as flat-footed as a human can be. I took it easy whenever I was hurt and it bugged a couple of my teem-mates, but when you're 17 and can barely walk up a flight of stairs after a game, you have to make the judgement call. I'm sure it's been suggested but I'd recommend seeing a doc to make sure your bones don't have any issues and go from there. You could also perhaps work on conditioning the bones through impact training, which as I recall is the best way to improve bone density...and which, assuming damage wasn't being done, you might have been getting without even trying!
Good luck and gambatte!

Last edited by mathewjgano : 12-21-2009 at 02:35 PM.

Gambarimashyo!
 
Old 12-21-2009, 06:37 PM   #71
Flintstone
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Re: Bending bones!

Quote:
Maggie Schill wrote: View Post
We are not talking about the same aspect of training, there must be a 'communication' issue here. You don't seem to be familiar with what I mean when I say the word "assumption" in relation to a martial art.

Either way, I can tell what a wonderful Aikidoka by your ability to communicate peacefully.

I'm not fighting with you, I'll let you be right, if you just piss off.
Bullshit, I say.
 
Old 12-21-2009, 06:49 PM   #72
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Re: Bending bones!

I feel a thread about to be closed.

David
 
Old 12-21-2009, 08:06 PM   #73
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Re: Bending bones!

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Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
Bullshit, I say.
*bows-- left hand, right hand, eyes tuned down*

LMAO
 
Old 12-21-2009, 10:40 PM   #74
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Re: Bending bones!

This thread is so far off topic...
 
Old 12-22-2009, 03:46 AM   #75
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Re: Bending bones!

That girl is out of topic both by practicing a Budo as a hobby and by her wording in my quotation.
 

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