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Old 05-27-2009, 01:58 PM   #51
David Orange
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Re: Aikido and Bushido

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
David, I really don't think you have the understanding of what Hitler ordered, what he had done, what the Nazis did, and what atrocities were committed.
Yes, I have a deep understanding of Hitler, his motivations and his actions. And I understand why the "majority" of German citizens supported him, even when they could smell the victims burning in his death camps.

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
I would be the first to say I don't have a great understanding of it, either. But, what I have found, been told, heard about, etc gives me enough to state that I would never compare Hitler or Nazis to any of these: Bush, Cheney, Rove, America, Obama, Kennedy, Biden, etc, etc, etc. There is no comparison, no "this could have been" if things were just a bit different, nothing of that sort.
Well, you're right about America, Obama, Kennedy and Biden, but Bush, Cheney and Rove couldn't be closer to Hitler, Himmler and Goering. They plunged the world into destruction and death for personal gain. Cheny got $36 million from Haliburton just months before Bush handed Haliburton the fattest war contract in human history. They didn't do it to "get OBL" or "terrorists," but just to keep a profitable war going---profitable for themselves, but ruinous for the American people. Look at the laundrylist of horrors those three perpetrated in Iraq, the waste, the corruption, the fact that even today they have still never gotten reliable electricity in Baghdad and our soldiers are being electrocuted in showers in buildings where Haliburton did the electrical work. Just imagine what they would have done if there had been NO political restraints on them. That's ALL that kept them from going from horrid to truly unspeakable actions. They would have had no limts at all. And remember--this is not talking about America but about Bush, Cheney, Rove, Wofowitz, Rumsfeld and all those insiders.

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
But, it is intellectually dishonest and disingenuous to compare Hitler/Nazis to America or Bush, etc. Any amount of historical research will negate that comparison.
Any historical research will show that the Bush administration never soared to the heights of depravity that Hitler reached, but it was only a matter of degree. And that degree was nothing but the American will that we not become such as Germany during the war. Even with that kind of resistance, Bush went further than any US President has ever found it necessary to go and he still did not win the wars, did not get the prime architect of 9/11, did not, ultimately, get rid of the Taliban. They all thumb their noses at us now. But what Bush did manage to do was, in effect, to lose two wars, lose our biggest terrorist enemy, bankrupt the nation, destroy the economy and remove vast swaths of the Constitution's protections for our daily lives. Gee. If these are good results, how would "bad" look?

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Using that comparison comes across as tawdry to those who have done the research. I would strongly suggest that you work harder at doing the research necessary to gain a better perspective of what Hitler did and what the Nazis did.
Sounds like I have a better understanding and must have done more research on the matter than you have. Well, you will have plenty of time to rethink my position as the years go by and we get further from what has happened and people learn more about what actually happened under Bush. You'll be singing with me, then.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
 
Old 05-27-2009, 01:58 PM   #52
Aikibu
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Re: Terrorism, torture and US foreign policy

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
David:

I am in agreement with you on the points that you have made about the previous administration. You and I have shared similar thoughts on threads over the years about how bad and dangerous the last administration was. That being said, we need to separate our thoughts and feelings about the last administration and take a serious look at how we might actually gain an upper hand in this fight against fundamentalist Muslim terrorists.

Case in Point: A number of years ago, the Israeli government began a VERY EFFECTIVE program of targeted assassinations against the leadership of some terrorist groups who had been responsible for numerous terrorist attacks against its citizens. These organizations were so deeply damaged that they complained so loudly to the EU that this neutered organization began pressing the US until it caved-in and pressured Israel to stop what worked! Guess what? Citizens died again. The Gaza strip is governed by a terrorist organization.
A Democratically elected "Terrorist Organization" LOL Not so effective... The Bull Dozing of Private Homes... Keeping Gaza under siege...Isreali destruction of any and all Social Organizations...80% unemployment rate among Gazen Males due to the blockade...Isreali censorship of what happens inside Gaza...Gaza's condition and the Isreali Occupation as a huge terrorist recruitment tool.

Quote:
The last administration began using drones and other means with a similar objective in mind. Luckily for us, the current administration has ramped this effort up quite a bit. The result is that the leadership of these organizations are a lot weaker, which makes it easier to conduct more effective operations against them.
Not so effective...Use of drones results in huge blowback with regard to civilian casulties resulting in the Pakistani Taliban proving to be a legimate contender against the Pakistiani Government in the minds of civilians...

Quote:
I would like to see our country fight this genuine threat in an effective manner. I cannot envision our nation acting like the Nazis, Serbia, Congo, Sudan..... Our citizens would not stand for this. I do believe that our nation would stand behind a policy of doing whatever it takes to eliminate the threats. Those extremists do respond to brute force, despite the rhetoric that says otherwise.
Your right brute force always works just ask the Soviets in Afganistan and Chechenya...
Quote:
If that side knows that being captured means an unimaginable hellish way out of life, then let that be the message. We can extend a hand of peace to those who accept it. To those who want to hurt us, they always be looking over their backs and fear what we will do to them. Ultimately, the choice should be up to all of us in how we can hopefully navigate a way of living in peace despite our differences.

Marc Abrams

ps.- I would love to use that coward Cheney to practice enhanced interrogation methods. If that weasel does not believe that it is torture then lets ask him some tough questions. Personally, I call it interrogation by torture.
Marc & Folks...I highly recommend this blog for those who are interested in how to actually fight and win a counter-insergency campaign.

http://smallwarsjournal.com/

It's a good place to bone up on the stuff we're discussing.

William Hazen
 
Old 05-27-2009, 02:02 PM   #53
C. David Henderson
Location: Santa Fe New Mexico
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Re: Terrorism, torture and US foreign policy

Hi Mike,

As I indicated, the information I related was based on mainstream news accounts after the release of the torture memos and the congressional panel's findings.

I can't say we got no useful information from "torture," because I don't know all the facts involving all the detained people who were subjected to the these techniques. (I have heard we got a whole bunch of noise in the process that went nowhere.)

And I can say that the torture "poster children" touted by previous office holders, including the director of the CIA, are substantially at odds with the new information.

If their prime examples are not true, it doesn't prove there was nothing of value obtained, but it does throw doubt on all of their claims.

Like when a witness is caught in a lie at a trial, the question now may be asked, "Tell me Mr. Tenat, is there any kind of gesture you make when you actually are telling the truth so we know when to believe you?"

As for LA, you can't really say my point of view amounts to "let 'en bomb it, I got my principles," unless we have a common set of agreed upon facts where the choice was "torture or let 'em bomb it."

Instead, we depart in this friendly debate from a common premise -- "sometimes you have to do what it takes." We disagree about facts, and our disagreement about facts reflects different media reports at different times and places.

As for the idea of "blaming America," I don't think its an either/or proposition.

Here, I'll go out on a limb - people who commit acts of terrorism on innocent civilians commit evil. They are usually ruthless. They have to be taken seriously. And our society will inevitably demand they be dealt with effectively in order to protect ourselves and our families.

I also think this torture stuff challenges our national ideals and our history. Its to be expected that people are upset at the government right now because they feel not only that those ideals have been compromised, but because they were lied to about it. Its not just Bush haters either, not any more.

When you talk about the deaths of US service people, keep in mind that one military interrogator who worked extensively in Iraq claims based on the interrogations he performs that a primary recruiting tool for the foreign Jihadists, many of whom targeted coalition forces with suicide bombs, was propaganda exploiting the reported abuses at Abu Gharib and GITMO. These "actual enemies" may have remained "potential enemies," but we handed their hearts and minds over to the bad guys.

Does that make us evil? Let someone else make that argument; its not mine.

My argument is that this policy was the product of fear and political calculation, that its results may have been substantially over sold, and that there is a good reason that many people who are trained to get reliable information from people for a living have opposed it as stupid.

Until we get to a situation in which we can agree the means are necessary to achieve the ends, we can't really debate the point you come back to -- whether they are justified by those ends.

cdh
 
Old 05-27-2009, 02:20 PM   #54
Mike Sigman
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Re: Aikido and Bushido

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
With all due respect Mike...As if you have an better command of the facts...

If you wish to believe what your government tells you about The Gulf of Tonkin Incident... WMD...
One of the things I do know is how little civilians know about that actual facts, Hazen. I was in the Gulf of Tonkin when it went down. I had 2 buddies on the Turner Joy. I read CinCPacFleet intelligence lines every day. The difference between what was really happening and what the MSM in the US was reporting was incredible. What liberal people were being outraged about in the U.S. was astounding because usually the things they were having heart-attacks about never really happened. My suggestion is to get the facts and if you're going to react to something at least react to all the issues, not just the partisan ones.

Notice my humour about bombing L.A. Have you seen anyone on these threads say a word about "IF the EIT's saved lives in L.A., that's a good thing"? No. L.A. and terrorists are just reasons to hate Bush.

Notice my comment about Sandy Berger stealing and destroying documents prior to his 9/11 testimony. One of my favorite topics because it simply does not register among US-haters. Think about how someone like David Orange would have fits if Rumsfeld had stolen/destroyed documents in order to hide what Bush had done. Not a peep. In other words, there's no one of these complainers who's really worried about fair evaluation of anything, it's simply partisan politics disguised as some false concern for the U.S. What baloney.

WMD's? There have been indications from ex-KGB types, ex-Iraqis, from the 2 commission that officially investigated, etc., that something was shipped to Syria so they just don't know. Do you see any partisan Bush hater ever say "we don't know"? No. This is the sickness I was talking about. Instead of worrying so much about Bush (he's gone), you should be wondering why supposedly spiritual (Namaste, Bro!) Aikido types contain so many haters in the ranks. One thing I learned during my stint in the Haight, when I played a guitar in a small bar back in the late 60's, was that one of the most common phoney facades is that of the spiritual "love and peace" types. Things haven't changed and I'm still having my fun pulling their legs. But hey.... I have a reputation for leg-pulling that I have to maintain.

Mike Sigman
 
Old 05-27-2009, 02:31 PM   #55
David Orange
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Re: Terrorism, torture and US foreign policy

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
...we need to separate our thoughts and feelings about the last administration and take a serious look at how we might actually gain an upper hand in this fight against fundamentalist Muslim terrorists.
I couldn't agree more.

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Case in Point: A number of years ago, the Israeli government began a VERY EFFECTIVE program of targeted assassinations against the leadership of some terrorist groups who had been responsible for numerous terrorist attacks against its citizens. These organizations were so deeply damaged that they complained so loudly to the EU that this neutered organization began pressing the US until it caved-in and pressured Israel to stop what worked! Guess what? Citizens died again. The Gaza strip is governed by a terrorist organization.
Again, agreed, entirely. But Israel is sitting within its own borders and its enemies are infiltrating the country (or were) and firing rockets across its borders, coming across the border and grabbing Israelis and murdering them.

In our case, we allowed the terrorists to hit us very hard on 9/11, but pretty much everything that has happened since has been a debacle of stupidity, greed, arrogance and pride.

Now we are not talking about peoople coming into our land and attacking us. We're talking about us going into their land, and their people attacking ours on THEIR land. And Iraq had NOTHING to do with 9/11 or with the general jihad against the west. Saddam didn't want any jihad happening in Iraq, even if he paid for it to happen in Israel. The Iraqi people would be better off, the US economy and military would both be far better off and our strategic position in the middle east would be a thousand times better. We would have eliminated the Taliban completely and we could easily have kept Saddam contained.

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
The last administration began using drones and other means with a similar objective in mind. Luckily for us, the current administration has ramped this effort up quite a bit. The result is that the leadership of these organizations are a lot weaker, which makes it easier to conduct more effective operations against them.
That's true, too, but that whole situation would not even exist if we had not invaded Iraq. From a strong position in Afghanistan, we could have had tremendous influence on both Iraq and Iran. We could have developed some REAL intelligence networks all through al quaeda and the taliban and we could have resources better positioned throughout Iran. Bush's bumbling incompetence put paid to all those possibilities though. If Obama starts ramping up those efforts, he could build a very good network in the next eight years, but it won't be nearly as strong or as good as it would have been if we had not invaded Iraq.

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
I would like to see our country fight this genuine threat in an effective manner.
Me, too!

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
I cannot envision our nation acting like the Nazis, Serbia, Congo, Sudan..... Our citizens would not stand for this.
You and I would not, but there are a lot of people out there who would see it as a chance to make The Turner Diaries a reality. Which is how Bush got so much support for invading Iraq. I hate to use the comparison to the Nazis, but once we get further down the road from this, we will look back and will scarcely be able to believe how far we let Bush go. And we never really stopped him. He escaped. And all the people who backed him (maybe 13% of the US, now) intend to carry on their efforts to support Bush by doing all they can to tear down Obama. Which is why I get so involved in questions like these.

Mochizuki Sensei told me that, after WWII, he was teaching judo in France and at one seminar he had two big Germans. He said that after the classes, he was changing clothes when the Germans came in. They said to him, "We're sorry that Germany folded first and failed to support Japan through the rest of the war. We are sorry that happened." Then they stuck out their hands to shake his hand and said, "Next time, we will stay strong to the end!"

Mochizuki knew what the war had done both to his own country and to Germany, so he thought these guys were crazy.

But we have people like that all over the United States and they have not given up. We may be in a more dangerous time now, and facing more danger from within, now, than we were in at 9/11. That kind of thinking has to be discredited and denounced, lest it grow.

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
I do believe that our nation would stand behind a policy of doing whatever it takes to eliminate the threats.
Yes, we could, but only if we really went about it in the right way. Americans knew that Bush's negligence had allowed the 9/11 attacks, but they still rallied behind him when he spoke from Ground Zero. And they cheered him when we went into Afghanistan and drove out the Taliban.

What Americans expected at that point, and the action the would have supported wholeheartedly, was to clamp down on Afghanistan, eliminate the Taliban and the warlords, and bring real Justice to the poeople of Afghanistan--education for children, including girls, end of rape as a tool for dominating women, having real participatory elections. But what we soon saw was a corrupt government being set up, a back-pedalling from protections for women and the Bush administration's leaving the job half done to go and attack a country where no meaningful jihad was taking place. Americans saw that our leaders would abandon the goals we had signed on for and saw an endless stream of lies to justify attacking Bush's personal enemy.

So even though Americans will wholly support the good fight against the terrorists and jihadis, they will just as quickly drop that support when they realize the leaders are not really pursuing that agenda, but are working on other aims entirely. Which is what happened with Iraq. That simply should never have happened and its another instance of corrupt leadership losing the support of the people. And the congressional election of 2006 and the Presidential election of 2008 shows what happens then.

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Those extremists do respond to brute force, despite the rhetoric that says otherwise.
Yes, they do. But so do ordinary people, and when we kill families and children, through over-broad attacks directed from thousands of miles away, we lose the support of those ordinary people and they may even join up with our enemies. Bush was far too dull to appreciate that fact.

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
If that side knows that being captured means an unimaginable hellish way out of life, then let that be the message.
But if that message also contains the subtext that America will torture if it gets its hands on you, whether you are guilty or innocent, then we hurt ourselves. Who will people choose to support then? Us foreigners, with a different religion? Or their own local people, who share their religion? Ordinary people would not be able to tell so much difference between us and the Islamists. Their choice could be a flip of the coin. We have to be FAR better than the Islamists so that the ordinary people can see that difference and know that we will help them.

In many ways, we have been able to do that in Iraq, but we have been just as loud, jarring and threatening to ordinary people by our remote bombing and missiles and our torture of prisoners--some of whom were innocent.

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
We can extend a hand of peace to those who accept it. To those who want to hurt us, they always be looking over their backs and fear what we will do to them.
As long as we don't alienate the normal people we theoretically propose to help, I agree.

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
I would love to use that coward Cheney to practice enhanced interrogation methods. If that weasel does not believe that it is torture then lets ask him some tough questions. Personally, I call it interrogation by torture.
I'd like to see him and Sean Hannity get waterboarded and see how many false confessions each will make in five minutes. People will say anything you want them to say to get you to stop torturing them. It produces bad information and why go for that when the administration ignores the good intelligence it gets?

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
 
Old 05-27-2009, 02:36 PM   #56
Marc Abrams
Dojo: Aikido Arts of Shin Budo Kai/ Bedford Hills, New York
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Re: Terrorism, torture and US foreign policy

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
A Democratically elected "Terrorist Organization" LOL Not so effective... The Bull Dozing of Private Homes... Keeping Gaza under siege...Isreali destruction of any and all Social Organizations...80% unemployment rate among Gazen Males due to the blockade...Isreali censorship of what happens inside Gaza...Gaza's condition and the Isreali Occupation as a huge terrorist recruitment tool.
Are you trying to say that Hamas is not a terrorist organization? Whereas I do not condone a fair amount of what Israel does, that does not equate with what Hamas, Islamic Jihad,... has done. Frankly speaking, if the Palestinians displayed half of the moral character that Israel had displayed, that region would actually be living under more peaceful conditions. Maybe you should try living next door to someone who has the goal of you total destruction. I think that your answers would be different.

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
Not so effective...Use of drones results in huge blowback with regard to civilian casulties resulting in the Pakistani Taliban proving to be a legimate contender against the Pakistiani Government in the minds of civilians...
I beg to disagree with you on that one. The drones have been VERY EFFECTIVE in taking out a lot of the leadership (among other things being and that have been done). The Pakistani Taliban have other larger reasons for challenging the Pakistani Government.

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
Your right brute force always works just ask the Soviets in Afganistan and Chechenya...
Afganhistan- No, Chechenya- yes. They have basically eliminated most of the threats in Chechenya.

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
Marc & Folks...I highly recommend this blog for those who are interested in how to actually fight and win a counter-insergency campaign.

http://smallwarsjournal.com/

It's a good place to bone up on the stuff we're discussing.
Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
William Hazen
I would recommend the book "The Utility of Force"

Marc Abrams
 
Old 05-27-2009, 02:38 PM   #57
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
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Re: Terrorism, torture and US foreign policy

Quote:
David Henderson wrote: View Post
As I indicated, the information I related was based on mainstream news accounts after the release of the torture memos and the congressional panel's findings.
Can you point me to something that say the EIT's didn't work, David, or are you just saying that "some people opine that it didn't work"? I read the news (from all over the world) pretty thoroughly and at most I've seen *speculation* that it wasn't necessary. Most of it comes off as Monday-morning quarterbacking, not actual facts. But if you have a source of facts that isn't just opinion, please post it.
Quote:

I can't say we got no useful information from "torture," because I don't know all the facts involving all the detained people who were subjected to the these techniques. (I have heard we got a whole bunch of noise in the process that went nowhere.)
OK... so that's an "I don't know". That's probably where most people are, even the ones who are defaming/slandering, wouldn't you say? And don't get me wrong... I tend to speak out against extremists from both the Left and Right. It's just the Aikido tends to have mostly Far Left leanings. I got tossed off a "Christian based" martial arts list, too.
Quote:

I also think this torture stuff challenges our national ideals and our history.
I don't think so. Look at the crime rates in our large cities now, due to our "national ideals". Look at our economy as the result of the Subprime Mortgage Meldown, as it was originally called until that became politically embarrassing for the Dems. Look at how our media has taken to simply not reporting crime rates, educational problems, etc., in an effort to shape our "national ideals". Our "national ideals" are gone/changed. If our national ideals are to worry about people trying to kill us while nothing is said about the thousands of murders in the U.S., the killing of U.S. soldiers, or if our "national ideals" are to hate the U.S. military and spit on it, then those ideals are a fairly worthless red-herring to focus on.

Personally, if the mild abuse of waterboarding on someone intent on committing murder saved 3,000 lives in L.A., U.S. citizens, then I say it was worth it. Some people will disagree that the lives of those citizens was worth some imagined besmirching of "national ideals". In that case, I can only wish them and their families the same fate that they casually dismiss for U.S. citizens while focusing on hating a president who is now out of office.

FWIW

Mike
 
Old 05-27-2009, 02:43 PM   #58
Aikibu
Dojo: West Wind Dojo Santa Monica California
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Re: Aikido and Bushido

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
One of the things I do know is how little civilians know about that actual facts, Hazen. I was in the Gulf of Tonkin when it went down. I had 2 buddies on the Turner Joy. I read CinCPacFleet intelligence lines every day. The difference between what was really happening and what the MSM in the US was reporting was incredible. What liberal people were being outraged about in the U.S. was astounding because usually the things they were having heart-attacks about never really happened. My suggestion is to get the facts and if you're going to react to something at least react to all the issues, not just the partisan ones.
With all due respect Mike my entire Military Career all 16 years of it active and reserve was preimarely focused on the study Terrorism/Counter-Terrorism.

Here's one set of Non-MSM facts put together that seems to support and contradict your POV on the Tonkein Gulf.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_Tonkin_Incident

Quote:
Notice my humour about bombing L.A. Have you seen anyone on these threads say a word about "IF the EIT's saved lives in L.A., that's a good thing"? No. L.A. and terrorists are just reasons to hate Bush.
I noticed your humor I also noticed your painting everything with the good ol Bush hater Liberal brush...I completely understand...It's all the 20% of the country who still believe Bush was a great President have left.

Quote:
Notice my comment about Sandy Berger stealing and destroying documents prior to his 9/11 testimony. One of my favorite topics because it simply does not register among US-haters. Think about how someone like David Orange would have fits if Rumsfeld had stolen/destroyed documents in order to hide what Bush had done. Not a peep. In other words, there's no one of these complainers who's really worried about fair evaluation of anything, it's simply partisan politics disguised as some false concern for the U.S. What baloney.
Another common conservative meme The good ol "Hey you think Rumsfeld was bad!!! You should see what Sandy Berger did!!!" LOL At thsi point why even discuss or debate this if everyone who dissents is a "USA Hater"

Quote:
WMD's? There have been indications from ex-KGB types, ex-Iraqis, from the 2 commission that officially investigated, etc., that something was shipped to Syria so they just don't know. Do you see any partisan Bush hater ever say "we don't know"? No. This is the sickness I was talking about. Instead of worrying so much about Bush (he's gone),
Three commissons and to folks Bush personally appointed to find WMD's in Iraq found nothing to indicate anything on the scale Bush used to SELL the Iraq War...Those facts are undesputed and a matter of public record.

Quote:
You should be wondering why supposedly spiritual (Namaste, Bro!) Aikido types contain so many haters in the ranks. One thing I learned during my stint in the Haight, when I played a guitar in a small bar back in the late 60's, was that one of the most common phoney facades is that of the spiritual "love and peace" types. Things haven't changed and I'm still having my fun pulling their legs. But hey.... I have a reputation for leg-pulling that I have to maintain.

Mike Sigman
Your reputation remains intact.
 
Old 05-27-2009, 02:45 PM   #59
C. David Henderson
Location: Santa Fe New Mexico
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Re: Aikido and Bushido

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Notice my humour about bombing L.A. Have you seen anyone on these threads say a word about "IF the EIT's saved lives in L.A., that's a good thing"? No. L.A. and terrorists are just reasons to hate Bush.
Alright, fair is fair -- would you agree that "IF the EIT's DID NOT save lives in L.A., that's a bad thing; both because our government tortured people and because we were lied to about the results?"

You confess first, bra, and then I say Namaste.

Otherwise it is just leg pulling people you have put in the "partisan Bush hater" pot.
 
Old 05-27-2009, 02:54 PM   #60
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
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Re: Aikido and Bushido

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
With all due respect Mike my entire Military Career all 16 years of it active and reserve was preimarely focused on the study Terrorism/Counter-Terrorism.

Here's one set of Non-MSM facts put together that seems to support and contradict your POV on the Tonkein Gulf.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_Tonkin_Incident
Er, I don't need "Wikipedia" as a factual source for anything, thanks. Do some research on Wikipedia and how many college professors now prohibit the use of Wikipedia as an unbiased source. Besides, I know more about the incident, people who have reported on it, people who have written books on it, the actual intercepted intelligence from the NVA, etc., than you do. My point was not the Gulf of Tonkin incident but the way you threw it out there as a proven case when you yourself don't really know what happened.
Quote:
Another common conservative meme The good ol "Hey you think Rumsfeld was bad!!! You should see what Sandy Berger did!!!" LOL At thsi point why even discuss or debate this if everyone who dissents is a "USA Hater"
That's odd... it's like you missed my invitation to comment on Berger. You changed the subject to something else. Seems to happen a lot. So you don't think Berger is worth discussing, do you?
Quote:
Three commissons and to folks Bush personally appointed to find WMD's in Iraq found nothing to indicate anything on the scale Bush used to SELL the Iraq War...Those facts are undesputed and a matter of public record.
If things were removed then nothing was found. Bush didn't "sell" anything that Clinton or others used as actionable intelligence, did he? Are you saying that Clinton lied when he said that Hussein had WMD's or was it just Bush.
Quote:
Your reputation remains intact.
Really... don't worry about my reputation. Worry about other peoples'.

Mike Sigman
 
Old 05-27-2009, 03:00 PM   #61
David Orange
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Re: Aikido and Bushido

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Notice my humour about bombing L.A. Have you seen anyone on these threads say a word about "IF the EIT's saved lives in L.A., that's a good thing"? No. L.A. and terrorists are just reasons to hate Bush.
Mike, you know perfectly well that you, I and anyone else on this board would ultimately confess to anything we were told to say if we were continually waterboarded for long enough. Not only is it questionable "IF" the torture worked but it's questionable, very, very questionable that the information could not have been gained in some other way.

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Notice my comment about Sandy Berger stealing and destroying documents prior to his 9/11 testimony.
I didn't see that comment. How many people died because Berger lied? Bush's death toll is over 4000 Americans (maybe 30,000 or more horribly difigured, maimed and barely even alive) and probably somewhere over 100,000 Iraqi civilians. So you're going to have to give me something that outweighs that on Berger's side before it can move my attention from the Bush war crimes.

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
One of my favorite topics because it simply does not register among US-haters. Think about how someone like David Orange would have fits if Rumsfeld had stolen/destroyed documents in order to hide what Bush had done.
If it was to hide Bush getting oral sex, even from someone like that "hotmilitarystuds.com" guy, I wouldn't give a dook. I would think it was funny. But the cover-up for Bush covers bodies. What did Sandy Berger's actions do? But what can I expect from someone like you, who hates America and the President and wants the right-wingers and readers of The Turner Diaries to have rights in America? (see, Mike? It works both ways.)

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
In other words, there's no one of these complainers who's really worried about fair evaluation of anything, it's simply partisan politics disguised as some false concern for the U.S. What baloney.
Ah...right. Clinton got a BJ and Bush killed over 100,000 people after allowing terrorists to strike, although he had been warned....

Speaking of baloney, you could make a killing if you'd just put most of your posts between slices of bread and sell them down at the foundry at lunch time.

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
WMD's? There have been indications from ex-KGB types, ex-Iraqis, from the 2 commission that officially investigated, etc., that something was shipped to Syria so they just don't know.
Yeah, and since we don't know, that means Saddam HAD the WMDs. And since I don't know where you were last Saturday night, I think you may have been involved in that robbery in New Orleans.

Where do you get your logic, anyway? Out of MAD magazine?

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Do you see any partisan Bush hater ever say "we don't know"?
I've said many times that Saddam may have sent chemicals or something to Syria. We definitely know he had some at some point because the US supplied him with all kinds of stuff when we were supporting him against Iran. The FACT is, there was never any reason to invade that stupid country and give up everything we had won in Afghanistan.

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
This is the sickness I was talking about. Instead of worrying so much about Bush (he's gone), you should be wondering why supposedly spiritual (Namaste, Bro!) Aikido types contain so many haters in the ranks.
Righteous anger is part of the human heart and Bush has earned the disgust of the entire free world and the laughter and hurled shoes of the rest.

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
One thing I learned during my stint in the Haight, when I played a guitar in a small bar back in the late 60's, was that one of the most common phoney facades is that of the spiritual "love and peace" types. Things haven't changed and I'm still having my fun pulling their legs. But hey.... I have a reputation for leg-pulling that I have to maintain.
Another VERY common facade is the "I Love America" type whose comments very gradually describe something a lot closer to wartime Germany than anything we ever wanted for the US. More law and order, more prisons, more prisoners, yet our streets are filled with violence and every "biggest drug bust in history" is dwarfed by the next "biggest drug bust in history." You want America for the Americans, but your Republican culture warriors make damned sure that the border remains porous as a sponge here in this time of terrorist war. So we have less freedom than ever, more drugs and street violence than ever, more illegal aliens than ever (or we did until the economy crashed) and also the crime those aliens commit. This after eight years of near-total control of the US by Republicans.

So get real. Lie to yourself, but just remember we know when you're lying to us.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
 
Old 05-27-2009, 03:01 PM   #62
Mike Sigman
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Re: Aikido and Bushido

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David Henderson wrote: View Post
Alright, fair is fair -- would you agree that "IF the EIT's DID NOT save lives in L.A., that's a bad thing; both because our government tortured people and because we were lied to about the results?"
Well, if a plot to stop an attack on L.A. did not happen (EIT's or not), then someone lied and they should go to jail. Don't misunderstand my position. If they pin some crime on Bush, Cheney, or whoever, I think they should be punished and I'll be the first to say it publicly. If Clinton and Berger perjured themselves to cover a crime, they should go to jail, too, don't you think? I'm strictly equal opportunity.

On the other hand, if someone is smearing Bush's name or Obama's name using false assertions, that guy should get his due too, don't you agree. Look at the people wishing torture on Cheney, etc., on the forum. Let's wish them every harm they wish on others.
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You confess first, bra, and then I say Namaste.
Please don't call me "bra". Just because my cup runneth over.

Mike
 
Old 05-27-2009, 03:05 PM   #63
C. David Henderson
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Re: Terrorism, torture and US foreign policy

Mike,

Here is a quote from Wikipedia, drawing on references sources (the article is quite long). Not saying its the best place to get your news, but it covers what I had read in other sources, including many of those cited.

The person quoted, Ali Soufan, was the lead FBI interrogator in the case, who made these assertions in sworn testimony before Congress.

"Ali Soufan states that the assertion that traditional, rapport building interrogation methods were not working, and therefore harsher interrogation tactics were necessary to obtain actionable intelligence, was incorrect.[85][86] He further alleged that the claim Abu Zubaydah only revealed actionable intelligence after the harsher interrogation techniques were applied is also incorrect.[85][86] Ali Soufan said

It is inaccurate, however, to say that Abu Zubaydah had been uncooperative. Along with another F.B.I. agent, and with several C.I.A. officers present, I questioned him from March to June 2002, before the harsh techniques were introduced later in August. Under traditional interrogation methods, he provided us with important actionable intelligence. We discovered, for example, that Khalid Shaikh Mohammed was the mastermind of the 9/11 attacks. Abu Zubaydah also told us about Jose Padilla, the so-called dirty bomber. This experience fit what I had found throughout my counterterrorism career: traditional interrogation techniques are successful in identifying operatives, uncovering plots and saving lives.[85]

He also wrote in an op-ed in the New York Times

Defenders of these techniques have claimed that they got Abu Zubaydah to give up information leading to the capture of Ramzi bin al-Shibh, a top aide to Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, and Mr. Padilla. This is false. The information that led to Mr. Shibh's capture came primarily from a different terrorist operative who was interviewed using traditional methods. As for Mr. Padilla, the dates just don't add up: the harsh techniques were approved in the memo of August 2002, Mr. Padilla had been arrested that May.[85]

Soufan is also quoted as saying "I was in the middle of this, and it's not true that these [aggressive] techniques were effective," he says. "We were able to get the information about Khalid Sheikh Mohammed in a couple of days. We didn't have to do any of this [torture]. We could have done this the right way."[86]"

The article also summarizes what was done to Abu Zubaida by the CIA, and discusses the lack of any interrogation experience by those using "EIT."

FWIW.

[If EIT did not save LA, would you agree it was a bad thing?]

regards,
cdh
 
Old 05-27-2009, 03:06 PM   #64
David Orange
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Re: Terrorism, torture and US foreign policy

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Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Whereas I do not condone a fair amount of what Israel does, that does not equate with what Hamas, Islamic Jihad,... has done. Frankly speaking, if the Palestinians displayed half of the moral character that Israel had displayed, that region would actually be living under more peaceful conditions. Maybe you should try living next door to someone who has the goal of you total destruction. I think that your answers would be different.
I'm with you on that, too, Marc. Very few of those "Palsestinians" were actually in the region when the separation occured in 1947. Like Arafat, they came from Egypt, Jordan, Yemen and all kinds of places like that to claim the land. And of the ones who WERE there and lost something in the exchange, probably more Jews were forced out of Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, etc., at the same time. And note the mobility of Palestinians. They're all over Birmingham, all over New York, all over the US. They seem to have no trouble going anywhere they want in the world except Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Yemen or anywhere else but next door to Israel. No matter what Israel gives up for peace, they get stones, suicide bombings and crude rockets in exchange. The palestinians get no sympathy from me.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
 
Old 05-27-2009, 03:16 PM   #65
David Orange
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Re: Terrorism, torture and US foreign policy

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Personally, if the mild abuse of waterboarding on someone intent on committing murder saved 3,000 lives in L.A., U.S. citizens, then I say it was worth it.
Sure, it would be worth it IF it saved those lives but there is no reason to believe TORTURE saved us anymore than there is reason to believe it was because I went there and witnessed to the terrorist, made him cry and got the information from his broken heart.

David has already posted information that the LA plot was thwarted BEFORE the subject was waterboarded. It was simply Bush/Cheney's preference, will and desire to order torture of human beings that caused the guy in question to be waterboarded. There is far more reason to suspect any information gained that way than there is to credit those methods with saving a dog on a common street.

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Some people will disagree that the lives of those citizens was worth some imagined besmirching of "national ideals".
Mike, Mike, Mike. There you go again and again. We're going to have to start calling you Mike Strawman because you keep putting up this ridiculous "if/or" choice that's just not based on reality.

I know a guy who believes that the only reason Martians have not attacked us yet is because he plays a series of Led Zeppelin songs backward every night at 10:02 PM and then plays a Beatles album straight ahead. Otherwise, gee...who knows? Maybe the martians would attack us. That's the same argument you're using to support torture of human beings--many of whom were probably absolutely innocent, with no knowledge of any terrorists, and even the guilty of whom probably just said whatever they thought we wanted to hear.

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
In that case, I can only wish them and their families the same fate that they casually dismiss for U.S. citizens while focusing on hating a president who is now out of office.
Who has dismissed the citizens of LA or their lives?

Against your martian-repelling torture schemes, it just looks ridiculous.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
 
Old 05-27-2009, 03:27 PM   #66
David Orange
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Re: Aikido and Bushido

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Er, I don't need "Wikipedia" as a factual source for anything, thanks. Do some research on Wikipedia and how many college professors now prohibit the use of Wikipedia as an unbiased source.
I don't think many people consider Wikipedia a factual source but only as a quick jumping-off point for looking further. It's a good place to get a quick overview of a subject, but you have to look deeper to get information you can really trust.

But thinking of it that way, the Bush administration ran everything on a sort of Wikipedia basis. They could put any "facts" out that they wanted, framed up in a nice, coherent scenario, but they could also remove and change any part of the story that didn't work well. They could discount legitimate sources and spread their version of the truth so widely that few Americans would take the time to look further.

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Besides, I know more about the incident, people who have reported on it, people who have written books on it, the actual intercepted intelligence from the NVA, etc., than you do. My point was not the Gulf of Tonkin incident but the way you threw it out there as a proven case when you yourself don't really know what happened.
I am completely satisfied that the government account of the "incident" was completely falsified. And if you tell me differently, I have to remember that you were the one circulating that false e-mail about Obama's orders in the pirate stand-off. Tonkin was forty years ago. It was an early "big lie" for America. I think that was exactly the point where we really started going wrong. And Bush just repeated the mistake on a huge level when he got the chance.

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
That's odd... it's like you missed my invitation to comment on Berger. You changed the subject to something else. Seems to happen a lot. So you don't think Berger is worth discussing, do you?
Your one-line references are hardly conducive to discussion of Sandy Berger. But maybe you've answered my questions about that in a post I haven't gotten to yet. I'd still like to know if Berger's actions resulted in the deaths of over 100,000 people, as Bush's did.

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Really... don't worry about my reputation. Worry about other peoples'.
You were the one who brought up worry about your own reputation. In the last couple of days, you've really made me wonder about it, too. I'd say you should worry a bit more about yours and less about others'.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
 
Old 05-27-2009, 03:32 PM   #67
David Orange
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Re: Aikido and Bushido

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
...if someone is smearing Bush's name or Obama's name using false assertions, that guy should get his due too, don't you agree.
Yes, Mike. You owe the President an apology for circulating that scurrilous, false e-mail.

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Look at the people wishing torture on Cheney, etc., on the forum. Let's wish them every harm they wish on others.
Doesn't work that way, Mike. We wish Cheney to experience the same evil he ordered done to others. Why wish us to experience Cheney's evil just because we want him to experience the evil HE perpetrated on others? See, when you do that, you're just skipping the middle and wishing torture on people.

Popular among some people today, but not the mentally healthy ones.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
 
Old 05-27-2009, 04:47 PM   #68
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Re: Terrorism, torture and US foreign policy

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Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Are you trying to say that Hamas is not a terrorist organization? Whereas I do not condone a fair amount of what Israel does, that does not equate with what Hamas, Islamic Jihad,... has done. Frankly speaking, if the Palestinians displayed half of the moral character that Israel had displayed, that region would actually be living under more peaceful conditions. Maybe you should try living next door to someone who has the goal of you total destruction. I think that your answers would be different.
Nope Marc... I am saying Hamas was elected...Frankly speaking If you consider it just a question of "Morality" Why not just utter some platitude like "Forgive them Lord they know not what do!" and be done with it.

Quote:
I beg to disagree with you on that one. The drones have been VERY EFFECTIVE in taking out a lot of the leadership (among other things being and that have been done). The Pakistani Taliban have other larger reasons for challenging the Pakistani Government.
Says who??? The U.S. Military??? If these drones have been so effective then why do we seem to be having so much trouble with Afganistan/Pakistan??? Don't get me wrong Drones are a great tool for Force Projection and the minimization of US and ALLIED casualites...and they do play have an important role but they can't win the war by themsleves ESPECIALLY an insurgency...

Quote:
Afganhistan- No, Chechenya- yes. They have basically eliminated most of the threats in Chechenya.
Nope they have not...What Putin did was bribe a Chechen Warlord in a similair action to the US "Sunni Awakening" The Chechen Insurgency is now underground and Russian Genocide continues. You don't hear about it because again the Chechen Nationalists have lost access to the MSM...The Russians like most Proto-Dictatorships have a huge advantage in controlling the media and the message getting to the outside world.

Quote:
I would recommend the book "The Utility of Force"

Marc Abrams
I read it and while General Smith is very qualified on the subject The basis for his theories is some 40 years old....In this regard I am happy General David Patreaus retains Dr David Kilcullen as his primary advisor (and author of numerous articles on the "Small Wars Journal" website I mentioned). Dr. Kilcullen seems to have a much better handle on modern Islamic Insurgencies.

William Hazen
 
Old 05-27-2009, 05:20 PM   #69
Marc Abrams
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Re: Terrorism, torture and US foreign policy

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William Hazen wrote: View Post
Nope Marc... I am saying Hamas was elected...Frankly speaking If you consider it just a question of "Morality" Why not just utter some platitude like "Forgive them Lord they know not what do!" and be done with it.
Hitler was elected into office. It is obviously far deeper than issues of morality. Spend some time in Israel and the complexities become readily apparent.

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
Says who??? The U.S. Military??? If these drones have been so effective then why do we seem to be having so much trouble with Afganistan/Pakistan??? Don't get me wrong Drones are a great tool for Force Projection and the minimization of US and ALLIED casualites...and they do play have an important role but they can't win the war by themsleves ESPECIALLY an insurgency...
The drones had been effective in decimating the leadership. It is far easier to replace "cannon fodder" than a leader. That issue is far different than why we still have trouble in Afganistan and Pakistan. Of course they cannot win the war, but they are effective tools.

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William Hazen wrote: View Post
Nope they have not...What Putin did was bribe a Chechen Warlord in a similair action to the US "Sunni Awakening" The Chechen Insurgency is now underground and Russian Genocide continues. You don't hear about it because again the Chechen Nationalists have lost access to the MSM...The Russians like most Proto-Dictatorships have a huge advantage in controlling the media and the message getting to the outside world.
The Russians have no problems being ruthless. Long history of it. They have no problems going to any country in the world and kill people who cause them problems. Once again, this is not an issue of morality. War and morality never seem to make good bedfellows. The Chechen rebels have lost more than internet access. Russian does more than control the media. They will wipe out a family of someone involved with the rebels. Effective way of silencing a population while thinning out the perceived problems. I am in no way advocating this tactic and strategy, but am just pointing out that it is effective.

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
I read it and while General Smith is very qualified on the subject The basis for his theories is some 40 years old....In this regard I am happy General David Patreaus retains Dr David Kilcullen as his primary advisor (and author of numerous articles on the "Small Wars Journal" website I mentioned). Dr. Kilcullen seems to have a much better handle on modern Islamic Insurgencies.

William Hazen
I do not necessarily see General Smith's thinking as 40 years old. It is relevant today. The same strategies and tactics that worked in Iraq are not really working well in Afghanistan because of very different realities on the ground. Many good people are trying to find a new "formula" that works. Regardless of what strategy you choose to implement, the fundamental fact remains that you need to take out the leadership and cut off the finances of these organizations. It is harder to replace a good leader and to find new channels and venues for money movement than it is in convincing a person with no real future to sacrifice his/her life in order to provide the family with a financially better future. Unfortunately, those cultures breed a huge disconnect between the haves and have-nots. The have-nots are simply used as expedient ammo by those who have the resources.

Marc Abrams
 
Old 05-27-2009, 05:23 PM   #70
Mike Sigman
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Re: Terrorism, torture and US foreign policy

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David Henderson wrote: View Post
The person quoted, Ali Soufan, was the lead FBI interrogator in the case, who made these assertions in sworn testimony before Congress.
Ah.... I saw him on TV and I heard about his testimony. However, during the interview I saw, the commentator also mentioned that Ali Soufan's version of events was disputed by the FBI or CIA or something, so I didn't pay much attention. Let me look into it.

Mike
 
Old 05-27-2009, 05:25 PM   #71
Don_Modesto
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Re: Terrorism, torture and US foreign policy

"[T]he politically motivated show trial of Galileo brings credit to Galileo but not his accusers....an important lesson of history learned again over the last eight years—that those who would subvert justice by the use of torture to confirm their preconceptions, through the use of secret evidence and the convening of a tribunal which is little more than a kangaroo court, stand to be condemned by history's judgment."

http://www.harpers.org/archive/2009/05/hbc-90005052

Don J. Modesto
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Old 05-27-2009, 05:27 PM   #72
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Re: Terrorism, torture and US foreign policy

"Matthew Alexander, author of How to Break a Terrorist, used non-torture methods of interrogation in Iraq with much success. In fact, one cooperative jihadist told him, 'I thought you would torture me, and when you didn’t, I decided that everything I was told about Americans was wrong. That’s why I decided to cooperate.'"

http://original.antiwar.com/paul/200...s-accountable/

Don J. Modesto
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Old 05-27-2009, 05:45 PM   #73
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Re: Terrorism, torture and US foreign policy

To David H.:

Well, pooh. There's not much specific about anything so I called a buddy of mine who's knowledgeable (because of his vocational contacts) with these things. The main reason there's not a ton of specific information I can find is because it's still classified, in the main. However, it's pointed out to me that all those CIA directors AND Dennis Blair, Obama's appointed "Intelligence Director" said: "Harsher interrogation techniques used on terrorist suspects yielded valuable information." The only dispute is whether they could have perhaps gotten the same info using softer techniques and over what period of time it would have taken. So it's a gamble with the lives of a lot of people in L.A. to say "well maybe...", isn't it? Then again, I doubt that the lives of people in L.A. mean much, in terms of today's world where lives are not as important as politics (yes, I know everyone gives lip-service, but on these political discussions, most of that "care" is bunkum, IMO).

So in short, we're back in another situation of "we don't know either way for sure", aren't we? I.e., I'm not ready to emote and wish harmful things on people with whom I politically disagree.

Mike
 
Old 05-27-2009, 05:50 PM   #74
Don_Modesto
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Re: Terrorism, torture and US foreign policy

So a corrupt and unabashedly mendacious cabal of unscrupulous oilmen and women launch an aggressive war (crime against peace) (killing roughly 1.3 million) against a county which hadn't attacked us, but had been recommended by the Project for a New American Century and planned for by our military (another crime against peace).

Said interested parties enrich selves and transfer massive amounts of US treasure (and flesh-criminal murder according to Bugliosi) to war and it's corporate representatives, protect egregious war profiteers, neglect fighting men and women as regards equipment, mental and physical health, and campaign for similar war against Iran, another country which hasn’t attacked us.

Meanwhile, this chicken-hawk administration (stateside pseudo-service for one, 5 deferments for another) talks tough and mainstreams torture (war crime, and, systematized, crime against humanity), a practice losing us moral ground, enhancing recruitment for our enemies, and inevitably justified by the ticking-bomb fantasy despite clear evidence that it was invoked in the main as political CYA while professionals who actually get results (unlike well-nigh the whole of the 43rd administration) decry such brutality as counterproductive.

And now we’re to believe this documented serial-liar Cheney to the effect that secret memos will bear out the effectiveness of torture when the men actually there testify that results were gotten before torture, not after.

In times of our greatest peril, the Revolution and the Civil War, our leaders have eschewed such barbarity. Now, the mightiest nation ever to exist on this earth which single-handedly spends more on military than the rest of the world combined trembles before bronze-age camel-jockeys?!

What a nation of pussies we are.

Don J. Modesto
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Old 05-27-2009, 05:50 PM   #75
C. David Henderson
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Re: Terrorism, torture and US foreign policy

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
[T]he commentator also mentioned that Ali Soufan's version of events was disputed by the FBI or CIA or something, so I didn't pay much attention. Let me look into it.

Mike
The CIA does dispute his testimony, I believe. I think, however, they have more of a motive to lie than he does (and somebody here probably is lying).

Mr. Alexander's book (How to Break a Terrorist) is another good source of material on the view point of an experienced interrogator who rejects EIT.

Thanks for being open to taking a look; for the friendly debate; and for being an iconoclast.

cdh
 

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