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Old 06-08-2008, 02:11 PM   #51
Mike Sigman
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Re: Military Training Methodologies

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
[snip]
"Be able to show 2 ways to escape the mount both by the numbers and at full combat speed".

So, when you talk "be effective or functionally quickly" it is a loaded question we are dealing with! [snip]
If you listen to what Mike and I debate, I think much of it has to do around the fact that we both simply evaluate things on different models.
Just to be clear here, I think that I consider the "evaluation" thing you're doing to be two different things, Kevin. I posted a number of times on this forum and others that I tend to think of martial arts as roughly comprised of two categories:

(1.) Techniques and Strategies
(2.) Conditioning

The whole ki/kokyu thing is about conditioning, in a way of speaking. Techniques and strategies are a separate topic. What screws up the conversation at a basic level is that the Asian arts base their techniques/strategies to work off the conditioning, but someone with an external view of clever/effective techniques doesn't usually understand this. Hence so many westerners who think that ki/kokyu are some sort of cool buzzwords and therefore they focus on techniques.

Whether a person can or cannot escape a mount or whether or not they can side-mount you is, IMO, simply beside the point for the ki/kokyu discussion. If that's the technique/strategies that you think are important, fine, but that simply misses the whole point of whether ki/kokyu skills have any value. As I said before, ki/kokyu skills have obvious benefits (as do cardio, strength, and other things) that simply preclude trying to peg the discussion on any particular techniques.

If you say that someone who has some degree of ki/kokyu skills "could not side-mount me", I'd ask if they were able to put out your eyes or rip out the sterno-cleido-mastoid muscle. But you probably don't teach those things as the immediate response in a grappling situation to your troops and I'd say "why not?". It's easy to get hung up on your favorite responses and get diverted from the conversation at hand. IF I were focused on military training, I'd be focusing on the fastest, most effective techniques that could be acquired within the shortest amount of time. I couldn't care less about who's in whose guard or side-mounted if it means wasting time.... but you see how that gets into a technique argument and totally away from a baseline skill like the ki/kokyu things.

This reminds me, BTW, of a sparring match I was told about from a couple of reputable sources. The person in the match that I personally knew was warned to not let the other person get his hands in any grip. So my friend sparred but avoided all grabs and attempts to take down. At the end of the match, the guy who lost showed what he could do if he had gotten his hands on my friend.... he took a teacup and using 2 fingers snapped off a piecr from the rim, and then he ground the piece into powder between his fingers. Not a guy you'd want to grapple with, probably (he also had fairly good martial techniques, too, so it wasn't just hand strength).

Long ago, arts like Pigua, Eagle Claw, and a number of others, specialized in the ground, grappling, and joint-lock arts and made it lethal for grapplers, shuai jiao, and other arts to try to take them down. Everything that is new in the world today is actually probably old, it often seems.

But think in terms of "what is the most effective way to train the body" rather than "what are the current most hyped techniques" and you'll see that my evaluation isn't about techniques at all... it's about conditioning. What someone does with that conditioning or how much effort they put into it in order to maximize strength is, to me, simply a separate branch of the discussion apart from my basic focus.

Best.

Mike Sigman
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Old 06-08-2008, 03:53 PM   #52
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Military Training Methodologies

Mike,

We view side control not as a technique or a strategy, it is simply a position or a body orientation that you might find yourself in.

Certainly a poor strategy militarily or martially if you can avoid it, as are all postions you find yourself in on the ground.

I would categorize slightly different.

1. Orientation, Position, or Situation.
2. Conditioning
3. Techniques and/or Strategy.

We start out, as well as most BJJ dojos from a standpoint of orientation/position or situation.

Most of our empty hand training assumes "failure". That is, someone has closed distance and has put you into an orientation that is less than favorable.

Training from Side Control, Mount, Rear Mount and From the Guard pretty much covers all basic body orientations that are possible. The other break downs of these postions might be Turtle, North South...etc....

Our training centers around getting people to understand these orientations first and learning how to maintain or regain "structure". It is not technique focused. That is alignment, posture, creating space, off balancing your oponent etc.

Techniques would be eye gouges, arm bars, tearing out sterno-mastoidal muscles...all that good stuff.

It is difficult to do these things if you do not have structure or positional dominance because your opponent has access to the same things and if he is in control..well you have more to worry about than eye gouging him...however, most certainly you can use eye gouges as a way to create space, distraction to move....however, that eye gouge would be a means to an end, and not the end in and of itself.

Because BJJ and other arts such as Modern Army Combatives concentrates on the basics of orientation and positional dominance, it is why you are able to see people become somewhat profcient in a few months to a 2 years martially.

Traditional schools focus on techniques and fail to grasp the importance of orientation and positional dominance and it is why you find 20 year practicioners that really can't pull off anything in a non-compliant environment...welll we have been down this road with the UFC haven't we?

Anyway, That would leave conditioning as the other factor....

I would submit that conditioning such as what you guys are doing has a great deal of transferrence martially as you do it in such a way that it can blend or blur the lines between orientation and conditioning.

However, failure to study or understand postiional dominance or orientation will leave you lacking martially, IMO.

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Old 06-08-2008, 04:23 PM   #53
Mike Sigman
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Re: Military Training Methodologies

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
We view side control not as a technique or a strategy, it is simply a position or a body orientation that you might find yourself in.
Kevin, regardless of what kind of shape you're in or what kind of strength you use (jin/kokyu or regular strength), those things are important. But wait... I've already tried to say this 3 times recently and many more times in the past... and it's not coming across to you, so I'll bow out.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 06-08-2008, 07:45 PM   #54
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Re: Military Training Methodologies

Mike,

I am not disputing what you are saying in regards to strength.

Actually in working with positional dominance..strength plays a lesser roll.

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Old 06-08-2008, 08:06 PM   #55
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Re: Military Training Methodologies

Quote:
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Actually in working with positional dominance..strength plays a lesser roll.
That pretty much covers what was in the Pennsylvania workshop, Kevin. That's the whole point/advantage of jin strength.
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Old 06-08-2008, 08:20 PM   #56
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Re: Military Training Methodologies

Yes. You know the we spent a fair amount of time with two people on the end of the bo staff in Ark's seminar with both parties pushing on the end of it. Also along with several other things like we did in your workshop.

Easily I could have stepped off the line, moved to a different vector to redirect the force with the Bo staff.

I think what you do with jin strength is important to integrate.

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Old 06-08-2008, 08:39 PM   #57
Mike Sigman
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Re: Military Training Methodologies

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Yes. You know the we spent a fair amount of time with two people on the end of the bo staff in Ark's seminar with both parties pushing on the end of it. Also along with several other things like we did in your workshop.

Easily I could have stepped off the line, moved to a different vector to redirect the force with the Bo staff.

I think what you do with jin strength is important to integrate.
But who would seriously confuse a simple training exercise with actual martial usage????
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Old 06-08-2008, 08:56 PM   #58
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Re: Military Training Methodologies

Quote:
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Mike,

I am not disputing what you are saying in regards to strength.

Actually in working with positional dominance..strength plays a lesser roll.
Not sure just how much I agree with that.
Lesser? Hmmm yeah maybe. I'm certainly not going to spend too much time going for something that wont work. But.... I'd suggest this training could present far more mobile resistence, control and ease of postional change with far less effort.
In movement and positional changes you do have to flow. If I was countering a side control at the onset with a hip change to swing my legs-in, they can either come across from a swivel or a pull with my hands right? You can do things like this with more ease and speed utilizing good structure with far less expenditure of energy then someone jacked or someone using muscle to move a disconnected body. Another thing to think about is that you could be going through series of changes looking for a dominate position and have to get out of a series of disadvantageous ones. In the process I can think of any number of places where me "stretching out" to make space, (say removing an arm or leg) and place someone in a guard, oma plata, kimura etc will require far less effort from me, then perhaps the same may require from you. Likewise I can see someone gassing sooner from playing with me as they will expend more energy to do "anything" with me, then perhaps you. Power always matters, Kevin. It just depends on
a) What kind of power we are discussing
b) Whether or not they know just how to use it where and when.
In this case in the sense that the overwhelming power available meant little was expended in use. I’d add to that I wasn't allowed to use it or they would have been knocked out from getting hit from positions there were entirely opened too, since they had no freaking clue someone could wreck them from such odd positions and distances.

Again you’re not hearing me argue this is unbeatable or any other such claptrap. And I make NO claims whatsoever to understand Military or LEO environments. In fact I don’t think this stuff is suited for those short term or short turnaround times. But if we are talking force-on-force grappling then “hell ya!” this stuff works in a big way were one to train both it...and grappling. It delivers more over the long haul for power delivery with less energy expended then anything else, and since it does, you don't "gas" at the same rates. It also offers more mobility under load, pound for pound a much greater yield of ultimate power, and arguably a clearer head while moving.
One truly great advantage that is overlooked- I believe- is from standing and moving. For that is where most men are stopped dead. It doesn’t go to the ground in the first place and they are in deep shit up close and personal. It will be a freaking son of a bitch to get a person well versed in this type of training to the ground in the first place without a tremendous expenditure of energy and without getting your ass handed to you in the process. An advantage that should not ever be down-played, but seems to never be mentioned.
Again, there just isn't time to train it in your venue of choice.
I don't know if any of that made sense to you or not.
a) I don't think in the short term this is suited for your guys
b) I think in the long term you will love this and appreciate its value, more than anything you have even known in the MA, as you learn (key operative word here, is as -you-learn) by allowing it to teach you-Kevin Leavitt, its worth in your world, as only you can know and judge. I'd bet you anything that if you stick with it, ten years from now you will become one of its biggest proponents. Anyone who places a high value on live, application of force/ power/ mobility and the ability to change, can't help but love this stuff. It just may take you, like it did me, a little time to see its worth. I thought it was B.S. for a while. I couldn’t make the jump to it’s use in what I considered the real deal.
In the mean time just have fun.

Last edited by DH : 06-08-2008 at 09:01 PM.
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Old 06-08-2008, 09:09 PM   #59
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Re: Military Training Methodologies

Thanks Dan.

Quote:
In the process I can think of any number of places where me "stretching out" to make space, (say removing an arm or leg) and place someone in a guard, oma plata, kimura etc will require far less effort from me, then perhaps the same may require from you.
This is what I am hoping for. It holds true to my experiences with Rob at the seminar. Now, just training it and figuring out how to integrate it!

Thanks once again both Mike and Dan.

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Old 06-08-2008, 09:18 PM   #60
Gernot Hassenpflug
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Re: Military Training Methodologies

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Yes. You know the we spent a fair amount of time with two people on the end of the bo staff in Ark's seminar with both parties pushing on the end of it. Also along with several other things like we did in your workshop.

Easily I could have stepped off the line, moved to a different vector to redirect the force with the Bo staff.
Hi Kevin, I know for sure that you could not have done that. One of Ark's points is that he uses his body only for transmission, there is no strength in his grip, or arms, or other body parts. So if you decide to step off the line and think you are 'redirecting the force' you are no affecting Ark's posture in the least. You would simply witness a demonstration of not being able to push a Bo sideways
And probably a demo of a breakfall

I'm not playing at being a fanboy here, it's just that your ideas here are so simplistic and unrealistic within the framework of this kind of body use. I applaud the fact that you went to the workshop and enjoyed it, even though none of the people that attended have any understanding of these skills.
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Old 06-08-2008, 09:27 PM   #61
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Re: Military Training Methodologies

Quote:
Gernot Hassenpflug wrote: View Post
Hi Kevin, I know for sure that you could not have done that. One of Ark's points is that he uses his body only for transmission, there is no strength in his grip, or arms, or other body parts. So if you decide to step off the line and think you are 'redirecting the force' you are no affecting Ark's posture in the least. You would simply witness a demonstration of not being able to push a Bo sideways
And probably a demo of a breakfall

I'm not playing at being a fanboy here, it's just that your ideas here are so simplistic and unrealistic within the framework of this kind of body use. I applaud the fact that you went to the workshop and enjoyed it, even though none of the people that attended have any understanding of these skills.
Hi Gernot:

Well, I can think of a number of responses, counter-responses, cool tricks with jin/kokyu forces and so on, but it all reminds me of how beginners in a dojo critique an attack and response and "what coulda been"... missing the point. All the various responses, etc., are probably very valid, but the point I was getting at is that anyone should be able to see/feel a few examples and decide if the skills have merit. If they need to be convinced with "how would this work in Situation A" and then they want to see "Situation B" and then having seen that it goes on to "well, how about Situation C", then it's probably a waste of time. As my first ski instructor told me when I asked about the twentieth 'what-if' question: "Just shut-up and ski down the hill for a day".

Best.

Mike
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Old 06-08-2008, 10:13 PM   #62
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Re: Military Training Methodologies

Perhaps while reading this excellent and interesting exchange I have lost sight of the forest because everyone is talking about a few trees...

And if you think that metaphor is cute how about this one...

You guys are appear to be talking about apples and oranges

"Aiki" has no place in Military Training IMO

There is simply not enough time for troops to learn anything except maybe the very basic concepts of internal power....

I detect a little mission creep on your part Kevin. I think the current Combatives Curriculum as it is being developed is excellent in building troops ablilty to protect themselves in a melee environment...

But lets not act like DARPA and think that just because it's way cool and shiny and does all these wonderful things that you have to expand this ability beyond the mission of FID, Civil Defense, or Close with and Kill the Enemy. In the new age of "Asymetric" Warfare (keep it) Simple is the best of better most all of the time.

I am going to stop now before I run into one of these trees.

William Hazen
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Old 06-08-2008, 10:32 PM   #63
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Re: Military Training Methodologies

Gernot,

Not talking about Ark being on the other end of the stick. Maybe it was a little over simplistic in my writing. My point was that really that we were dealing with something other than realignment or vectors change..that is all I was getting across.

Yeah, I agree with Mike. I was impressed, saw value in it for my training. So that is all I can really say at this point..other than to shut up and train. Heck it is only like 30 minutes a day!

William,

Good points. I agree, It doesn't belong in Military training for a number of reasons I have mentioned before. That is not to say that it cannot be there, or if someone wants to spend the time to do it, that they shouldn't.

There is nothing wrong with the current combatives curriculm. It is proven and is working. However, on a personal level, I want much more out of my training.

I'd like to be 50 years old, in decent shape, and able to hold my own with many of these younger guys. I am not going to be able to do it on speed, agility, or reflexes. I am already needing a little bit more than that right now!

Again 30 minutes a day.

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Old 06-08-2008, 10:49 PM   #64
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Re: Military Training Methodologies

William,

Dr Ed Thomas at Fort Benning for years has been trying to get the Army to change the way we test and do fitness. I remember participating with him back in 96 on some experimental things with push ups, medicine balls, and indian clubs.

check out this website if you are interested in seeing some different ways of doing things.

The Army is realizing that we must change how we view physical training in order to get soldiers in shape properly and to stop or minimize sports related injuries.

http://www.ihpra.org/military.htm

http://www.ihpra.org/Features.htm

Also if you spend time with crossfit.com, you will see that people are begining to see that there are better ways to train than run long slow distance, do pushups, situps, pull ups, and lift Ahnald style.

So, is there room for internal training. I think so, but as you can see from our discussions here there is a long ways to go.

Ark talked a fair amount about training your body to take the weight on your structure instead of using your muscles to compensate. Think about that for a minute. If you can learn to carry weight more efficiently, then what would that mean for infantrymen in the future?

Agree, this doesn't belong in the system as it is right now, as we don't have a culture or personnel to even train it properly. But, you never know!

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Old 06-08-2008, 10:50 PM   #65
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Re: Military Training Methodologies

Here is a quote from Thomas:

Quote:
The program's curriculum, based on early European and Asian systems, is divided into pedagogical, restorative and martial components. The pedagogical, or theoretical side, includes basic theory in anatomy, kinesiology, health promotion, foundations of fitness and nutrition.
The restorative, or restorative arts, component includes those techniques used to bring the body to its optimal state of readiness, Thomas said. This can include relearning basic movements with Indian clubs [sort of like old, wooden, bowling pins] and gaining muscular endurance through use of dumbbells and increasing flexibility.

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Old 06-09-2008, 05:49 AM   #66
Gernot Hassenpflug
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Re: Military Training Methodologies

Geez Kevin, I didn't want to waste space in this thread in a one-line reply, so I *tried* to send you a PM. Listen up: your PM box is full! :-)
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Old 06-09-2008, 07:01 AM   #67
Mike Sigman
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Re: Military Training Methodologies

Quote:
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So, is there room for internal training. I think so, but as you can see from our discussions here there is a long ways to go.

Ark talked a fair amount about training your body to take the weight on your structure instead of using your muscles to compensate. Think about that for a minute. If you can learn to carry weight more efficiently, then what would that mean for infantrymen in the future?

Agree, this doesn't belong in the system as it is right now, as we don't have a culture or personnel to even train it properly. But, you never know!
Generally speaking, one of the main things to do to improve martially is to improve the leg strength. If the legs can maintain the body weight, etc., and the back doesn't need to get involved, then there is a lot more power available. That's one factor in the equation.

In very general terms I've thought off and on over the years about how much jin things could be taught in the military to augment basic training. There are a few basic aspects that would probably help, IMO, and which could be trained to various groups, but generally it is only a few aspects of those skills. Not much.

Same thing happens when it comes to teaching older people how to actually use some aspects of these skills.... there are definitely a couple of things that would be helpfu, but not much. People who do a "Tai Chi form" are essentially learning some choreography that is pleasing, but it is no more than low-impact, low-aerobic motion... period. It's not really internal training of any sort.

The martial effectiveness of these kinds of skills is and has been widespread in China for thousands of years. The current Chinese Army uses aspects of internal training, as a matter of fact.

However, the real plus is not the martial aspect... it's the side issues of daily life using this form of movement that the Asians make such a big deal of. And Ueshiba and Shioda both mentioned these skills as being a paramount investment for old age.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 06-09-2008, 08:30 AM   #68
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Re: Military Training Methodologies

Now I think we're on to something.

Truth to tell, if you have been following the developments in both the MMA community and the "tactical community," LE and military, things are moving in just this direction - looking for appropriate conditioning/developmental/pre-hab/re-hab program that goes beyond standard PT fare to add to the "warrior's edge" (yes, I said it....) both for training and maintenance of performance as the operator ages. One that does not involve certain chemical enhancements that are receiving increasing scrutiny.

Things like Parisi Speed school's "Training for Warriors" come to mind, as does the growing number of "tactical conditioning" courses which are being offered by guys like Pavel Tsatsouline and others. A sports performance club near me that trains professional athletes across the spectrum is now moving into the MMA realm due to the demand they are seeing from guys who were doing "the same old strength and conditioning" route and not being successful - and developing an LE/Tactical program that they beta tested with our team. Many of the exercises they do are very similar to some IMA stuff.

Now that real money is being pumped into MMA (and LE and military have government funding), I think you will only see more of it as results are forthcoming at the highest levels of the sport, and at the highest level functioning in the tactical world (Tier One operators, LE SWAT, etc.) Since the latter are increasingly adapting MMA to tactical purposes, the "perfect storm," so to speak is gathering for there to be some real and meaningful input from different points of view, and I don't think IMA methodologies can be dismissed.

The time issue is a real one. But on the one hand we're not talking rank and file but specialists who can have more time to do these things. One the other, I think even a few exercises, integrated with other elements of training, can be beneficial in this realm without having to adopt a whole program. Certain ritual aspects, as well as movement patterns that are not optimized for the respective missions can be changed to others, or an "IMA approach" to say, weapons presentation (hinted at when someone talked about Ark and Skeet) can be adopted.

Like with so many things martial wise, its going to either need a guy with a certain level of ability in both realms to really make it happen with any credibility, or a combination of the right people from both realms willing to forego their prejudgements and make what needs to happen, happen.

I'll get more specific along the lines of what Mike just wrote, but no time now.

Last edited by KIT : 06-09-2008 at 08:33 AM.
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Old 06-09-2008, 10:24 AM   #69
Aikibu
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Re: Military Training Methodologies

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
William,

Dr Ed Thomas at Fort Benning for years has been trying to get the Army to change the way we test and do fitness. I remember participating with him back in 96 on some experimental things with push ups, medicine balls, and indian clubs.

check out this website if you are interested in seeing some different ways of doing things.

The Army is realizing that we must change how we view physical training in order to get soldiers in shape properly and to stop or minimize sports related injuries.

http://www.ihpra.org/military.htm

http://www.ihpra.org/Features.htm

Also if you spend time with crossfit.com, you will see that people are begining to see that there are better ways to train than run long slow distance, do pushups, situps, pull ups, and lift Ahnald style.

So, is there room for internal training. I think so, but as you can see from our discussions here there is a long ways to go.

Ark talked a fair amount about training your body to take the weight on your structure instead of using your muscles to compensate. Think about that for a minute. If you can learn to carry weight more efficiently, then what would that mean for infantrymen in the future?

Agree, this doesn't belong in the system as it is right now, as we don't have a culture or personnel to even train it properly. But, you never know!
Great Site Kevin, and I am glad the Army is looking at ways to improve "combat" conditioning. I wonder why they don't look at one of the most successful programs along these lines....Namely "Systema" and the various martial conditioning systems developed by the Russian Spetsnatz and GROM Special Police. Systema's praticum has an excellent focus on internal conditioning.

The best example of this in the MMA World... Fedor Emelyanenko. Who also happens to be my fave! LOL

I know Systema is still new though to most folks.

William Hazen

PS Sensei James Williams is also involved in this approach to a certain degree I believe. I had an interesting discussion with him about it a while back at the Aiki-Expo in 05 and hopefully I can get down to his Dojo one of these days. He has allot of experiance with teaching Snake Eaters and we knew allot of the same folks.

Last edited by Aikibu : 06-09-2008 at 10:30 AM.
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Old 06-09-2008, 01:32 PM   #70
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Re: Military Training Methodologies

I was waiting for Jun to renew my subscription so I get my PM space back. Sorry about that guys. It is there now!

I don't know why we don't or haven't looked as systema. Probably because it was not wide spread when we were evaluating models? Or maybe it did not suit our goals?

I have no experience in Systema. So no comments on it.

I will have to ask Matt the next time we talk.

Off the cuff I'd say it is probably a little too internalistic in linkage and would probably not go over very well with the troops and leadership. As you know our program must be simple, fun, and fast.

Matt put alot of time and effort in designing the program to fit the culture and organizational goals. There are many factors to consider when designing and implementing a program.

Thanks for the further information Mike. Training basic training is a difficult process. You have Army Culture, merging with culture of the trainees that may not have even ever done a push up in the past, whose thumbs are in better shape than any other part of their body is a challenge.

I could see one of our drill instructors doing some of the exercises with new recruits...nah, ain't gonna happen! Although it probably should!

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Old 06-09-2008, 01:46 PM   #71
KIT
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Re: Military Training Methodologies

Systema's failing is in the combative application end - they simply have not demonstrated effectiveness in a true force on force dynamic. I have seen that on various videos (ranging from the curious to the ridiculous), and had exactly what I expected from those videos demonstrated (or failed to be demonstrated, as the case were) in person.

My view is based on my experience, which has been hashed and re-hashed, so let's not let it de-rail the thread with Systema apologists. If anyone is so emotionally attached to Systema that they can't let that lie, feel free to PM me.

The "internal conditioning" aspect, however, has something to be offered - interesting body mechanics and interesting approach to movement which does have some application. But I don't think uniquely so vis-a-vis IMA principles and ideas, and one that has least attempted to approach the "armed professional" aspect that in fact may pave the way for what may be more practical combative applications as well as internal conditioning.

FWIW
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Old 06-09-2008, 02:33 PM   #72
Aikibu
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Re: Military Training Methodologies

Quote:
Kit Leblanc wrote: View Post
Systema's failing is in the combative application end - they simply have not demonstrated effectiveness in a true force on force dynamic. I have seen that on various videos (ranging from the curious to the ridiculous), and had exactly what I expected from those videos demonstrated (or failed to be demonstrated, as the case were) in person.
I had the exact opposite experiance but then again the Seminar was given by V.

Quote:
My view is based on my experience, which has been hashed and re-hashed, so let's not let it de-rail the thread with Systema apologists. If anyone is so emotionally attached to Systema that they can't let that lie, feel free to PM me.
Well I would agree that you seem emotionally attached. LOL

Quote:
The "internal conditioning" aspect, however, has something to be offered - interesting body mechanics and interesting approach to movement which does have some application. But I don't think uniquely so vis-a-vis IMA principles and ideas, and one that has least attempted to approach the "armed professional" aspect that in fact may pave the way for what may be more practical combative applications as well as internal conditioning.

FWIW
My point too... I guess I should have clarified it better...Who knows when I tried it it might have been a bunch of hocus pocus but I did feel the internal power there...Systema's main problem may be the same we face with the Dan's and Mikes of this world.... e tu' Talking the talk means nothing without walking the walk and outside of V who knows how many real "masters" of systema there truely are and how they transmit that knowledge remains to be seen. I only pointed Systema to highlight that Internal Power and it's potential use in Combatives...

William Hazen

Last edited by Aikibu : 06-09-2008 at 02:37 PM.
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Old 06-09-2008, 02:37 PM   #73
KIT
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Re: Military Training Methodologies

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post

Well I would agree that you seem emotionally attached. LOL
Undoubtedly and in spades.As people can very well die based on what they are taught and led to believe.

I take that very seriously.

No issue with the rest of your post. Check your PM.
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Old 06-09-2008, 02:48 PM   #74
Aikibu
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Re: Military Training Methodologies

Quote:
Kit Leblanc wrote: View Post
Undoubtedly and in spades.As people can very well die based on what they are taught and led to believe.

I take that very seriously.

No issue with the rest of your post. Check your PM.
I totally understand my brother...

I Love you Man... No seriously I do....

Speaking of You Tube...Here is a good Vid of Systema's Internal Concepts in action

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcf_AIIJ1eM

Again if I had my druthers I would spend a Year with Dan, Mike, Tanaka, Azukawa, or... V Vasiliev...

William Hazen
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Old 06-09-2008, 03:12 PM   #75
KIT
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Re: Military Training Methodologies

William

Mmm, pretty much more of the same - very cool looking developmental exercises that I would actually like to see turned around and applied in a legitimate force on force context - sportive or combative.

Seriously, this will derail the thread. FWIW, I am open about my skepticism because far too many people do so in conversations behind people's backs, or in PM or private e-mail. I have friends who disagree with me, people I respect who like Systema, and others who know people who think very highly of it - I welcome any correspondence and opportunity to train with people who think they can convince me - a friendly "challenge" as it were - in which I will very much put to the test the professional applications that anyone who cares to offers.

Most of them aren't interested in convincing anyone. Which is fine, but I would strongly encourage them to consider whom they are teaching. Systema intentionally markets itself to "armed professionals" and I believe this can be dangerous to those (most of them not martial artists or combat athletes) who accept what they are taught without legitimate pressure testing at a relatively high level. I am not interested in what the grand poobah can do if the people he has certified as instructors can't.

My personal view is that the Chinese IMA and Japanese Aiki offer a more promising path to realizing modern "internal" results.
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