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Old 12-18-2007, 08:11 AM   #51
lbb
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Re: Cross-Training my kids?

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
I still think of the years I lived in fear of bullys, without friends, being picked on and beat up every single day. And how the teachers and my parents made it worse by talking to those kids parents, putting those kids in detention, and having 'sit down talks' with us.
Don, I hear ya, but what that says to me is that the adults in your life didn't handle the situation effectively -- not that they shouldn't have handled it at all.
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Old 12-18-2007, 09:31 AM   #52
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Re: Cross-Training my kids?

I've thought about it a long time. I can't think of anything they could of done to solve the problem. By the time a bully is a bully, it is too late to talk him out of it.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 12-18-2007, 10:44 AM   #53
Joseph Madden
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Re: Cross-Training my kids?

Mary, can you give us some more insight into how bullies can be more effectively dealt with, without resorting to violence. You've said that the adults have failed both groups of children. If this is the case, then why do human beings breed in the first place. If we have the gift of foresight and we know that children have been "bullied" since humanity swung from the trees, how to you stop one group from picking on the other. From an anthropological standpoint, we know that the only primate species that doesn't resort to violence as a rule when dealing with aggressive situations are the bonobos. They are a species of chimpanzee that are lead by a matriarch and that solve problems of aggression through mutual lovemaking and masturbation (current studies are ongoing). Until humanity reaches that level of understanding, the vast majority of incidents with bullies will be intervention and if that doesn't work, physical violence. That's just the way it is.
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Old 12-18-2007, 11:52 AM   #54
lbb
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Re: Cross-Training my kids?

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Joseph Madden wrote: View Post
Mary, can you give us some more insight into how bullies can be more effectively dealt with, without resorting to violence.
'
Did I say "without resorting to violence" anywhere?

Quote:
You've said that the adults have failed both groups of children. If this is the case, then why do human beings breed in the first place.
That's a rhetorical question, one not connected to the previous statement in any way that I can see. When bullying of children is allowed to continue, then yes, adults have failed both bullies and victims. Somehow you've taken that to mean, "...and they will always fail."

Quote:
If we have the gift of foresight and we know that children have been "bullied" since humanity swung from the trees, how to you stop one group from picking on the other. From an anthropological standpoint, we know that the only primate species that doesn't resort to violence as a rule when dealing with aggressive situations are the bonobos. They are a species of chimpanzee that are lead by a matriarch and that solve problems of aggression through mutual lovemaking and masturbation (current studies are ongoing).
I'm not a chimpanzee, and I don't believe in raising a child with chimpanzees as role models.

Quote:
Until humanity reaches that level of understanding, the vast majority of incidents with bullies will be intervention and if that doesn't work, physical violence. That's just the way it is.
Oh, so now we've got something called "intervention" as an option? Funny, a short while back I thought that "self-defense" was the only option. Now we're getting somewhere! So what is this "intervention" of which you speak? I suspect it's something to do with -- wait for it -- adults getting involved, and not allowing the situation to proceed unchecked. Hmm, what was it I was talking about earlier?
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Old 12-18-2007, 12:02 PM   #55
Michael Douglas
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Re: Cross-Training my kids?

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Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Did I say "without resorting to violence" anywhere?
You go girl!
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Old 12-18-2007, 12:17 PM   #56
Joseph Madden
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Re: Cross-Training my kids?

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Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
I may be alone in this, but I think there's something wrong if a parent sends a child to a martial arts school to learn self-defense. Either the parent is wrong about the threat to the child, and is responding inappropriately (by addressing a threat that does not exist)...or the parent is responding to a real threat, but IMO not in the right way. If a child -- remember, we're talking 9 or 5 years old here -- is threatened, it should not come down to that child's ability to fight in order to be safe. Parents, teachers and other responsible adults should be taking action; if they leave it for kids to fight it out among themselves, they're abdicating their responsibilities. Think it's a solution for your kid to learn to fight? Okay, but what if the (hypothetical) bigger, stronger kids who are bullying him/her also learn to fight? The bully wins, that's what. Any tool that your children can learn to use, the (hypothetical) bullies can learn to use too; therefore, this is an entirely inadequate solution.

I have serious reservations about children being taught martial arts for any reason. Dress it up however you like, you are teaching a child fighting skills, at an age where the lack the judgment to use these skills appropriately. It's thin ice at best, and when you do it out of the mindset of preparing your children to fight, IMO that's asking for trouble.
Mary, You've consistently advocated in all of your posts how children should not be taught how to defend themselves and that you obviously believe that using physical violence is not the way for these situations to be resolved. Intervention only works on occasion.
And not all schools have intervention programs. Not every adult has the time in their lives to spend every waking hour with their children or the children they teach. Some children choose to commit suicide rather than confronting their fears. You are essentially committed to a world where everyone lives in peaceful co-existence. For the time being, that is a fantasy. By the way, do you have any children?
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Old 12-18-2007, 12:26 PM   #57
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Re: Cross-Training my kids?

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Joseph Madden wrote: View Post
Mary, You've consistently advocated in all of your posts how children should not be taught how to defend themselves
No, I have not. Please stop misrepresenting what I have said.
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Old 12-18-2007, 12:33 PM   #58
Joseph Madden
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Re: Cross-Training my kids?

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
I find it interesting that all those disagreeing with what they call my "logic" are male. With different perspectives, to be sure, but it's interesting to hear not just similar so-called "logic", but even similar phrasings. Somehow I don't believe it's because this POV you all are espousing is a self-evident truth.

Let me try this again. Think, please, just for a minute, about the situations in which you think a child might need self-defense. Think about it honestly. Once you've discarded however many of those situations that, on reflection, really could be solved by the child some other way, you're left with a number of other situations ranging from playground scuffles to serious bullying to stranger assault (which, I believe, is by far the least likely threat of violence to a child, particularly a suburban child) to assault by someone who is known and trusted (and whom the child is told by its parents to trust and obey). In each and every one of those situations, I assert, to teach a child self-defense as the solution is like spitting on a fire. It might put out the fire...if it's a very small one. But in all cases, the fire could have and should have been prevented -- by adults. In nearly all cases, it is beyond the child's resources to solve the problem comprehensively. And yet parents march their children off to dojos for the warm and fuzzy feeling it gets them, that now their child will learn "self-defense", and gosh, at the same time will learn this "self-discipline" thing, and all those other good buzzwords. They can almost never articulate exactly what they mean by these things, they cannot describe the problem in detail or provide a sensible and logical descrption of how they think martial arts training would solve it. Maybe the sad truth is that the "problem" parents are trying to solve is their own feeling of discomfort, and if an unsupported belief that your child is learning "self-defense" will alleviate that feeling of discomfort...then the problem is solved.

Lest people continue to misunderstand my position, I'm not completely opposed to kids training martial arts. For the most part, I think it doesn't do much harm and may do some good, much as any socializing physical activity would. What I am against are unrealistic parental expectations, and parental failures to grapple with either real threats to a child's safety or their own unrealistic fears of same.
Perhaps in another few thousand years we will get to the point that the bonobos have reached or rather are trying to attain. In case you hadn't notice Mary, I wasn't advocating that you raise children as a chimpanzee, but that perhaps the bonobos had the right idea with regards to how to deescalate a violent situation. Nor was I comparing you to a chimpanzee. I was using the chimpanzee analogy to show how little humanity has evolved with regards to its use of violence. I, for one, would hope all adults would use any and every tool in their experience to help a child from being a bully and from being bullied. But for every good intention, sometimes the child must rely on his or her strength to make it through life.

Last edited by Joseph Madden : 12-18-2007 at 12:36 PM.
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Old 12-18-2007, 12:37 PM   #59
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Re: Cross-Training my kids?

In my case adults got involved. First my parents called the school. I was taken to the principles office. He offered to help me. I told him the names of the children. He had a talk with them (no idea what was said). I was then beat up after school for having 'told on them'. At this point kids are suspended. I was then beat up that weekend again for 'crying to my parents'. Now my parents contacted their parents. Their parents punished the kids. Again I am beaten up. Now we are all taken into a conference room with the school admin to talk about 'the problem'. After talking about our feelings and how nobody is a loser, we are sent home and a week later I am again being picked on for being a 'dork' and a 'crybaby wuss who tells on people". Then I made the horrible mistake of wearing a martial arts shirt to school. I got beaten up for 'thinking I was tough'. The kids got in trouble, and I got beaten up for 'telling on them'. This eventually trains me to bottle up and not tell anyone I am getting beaten up because then I'll get beaten up worse. My grades suffer, I just become anti-social. My mom even took me to see a therapist. Mind you this is not just a couple kids, It wasn't as simple as kicking a few kids out of school. This is how boys operate. There is a hierarchy, and I was at the very bottom.

Finally, I get one good adult who tells me the best advice ever "You want to stop a bully, you can't let him win. You fight him with everything you got. If you lose, you come back the next day and you fight him again until eventually you beat him. Even if that means cheating." The next time I got picked on, I challenged the kid instead of sulking. He pushed me into a corner and tried to punch me in the chest. I took all that bottle anger and I whooped him good. So good he didn't come back to school for a few days. I got sent home, suspended, and NEVER picked on again for the rest of my school career. I wasn't Mr. Popular, but the lack of kids picking on me turned my attitude around, I made a lot of friends and had a great time in highschool. All because I beat up 1 bully.

That lesson holds with me to this day, I have never backed down to a bully. And most bullys seem to know this, and they don't even try to begin with.

I won't try to preach non-violence to my kids if I have them. I will tell them the same thing that was told to me about bullys. Knock em out, knock em out hard.

The biggest problem is adults do not understand the social structures of children. They seem to think kids behave rationally, or intentionally. Especially with boys, there is a need to develop a physical social structure. Anything adults try to do to upset that structure is only going to lead to the kid who 'told' being lower on the totem pole.

Last edited by DonMagee : 12-18-2007 at 12:40 PM.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 12-18-2007, 12:38 PM   #60
Joseph Madden
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Re: Cross-Training my kids?

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
I may be alone in this, but I think there's something wrong if a parent sends a child to a martial arts school to learn self-defense. Either the parent is wrong about the threat to the child, and is responding inappropriately (by addressing a threat that does not exist)...or the parent is responding to a real threat, but IMO not in the right way. If a child -- remember, we're talking 9 or 5 years old here -- is threatened, it should not come down to that child's ability to fight in order to be safe. Parents, teachers and other responsible adults should be taking action; if they leave it for kids to fight it out among themselves, they're abdicating their responsibilities. Think it's a solution for your kid to learn to fight? Okay, but what if the (hypothetical) bigger, stronger kids who are bullying him/her also learn to fight? The bully wins, that's what. Any tool that your children can learn to use, the (hypothetical) bullies can learn to use too; therefore, this is an entirely inadequate solution.

I have serious reservations about children being taught martial arts for any reason. Dress it up however you like, you are teaching a child fighting skills, at an age where the lack the judgment to use these skills appropriately. It's thin ice at best, and when you do it out of the mindset of preparing your children to fight, IMO that's asking for trouble.
Were you misrepresented here?
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Old 12-18-2007, 12:39 PM   #61
Joseph Madden
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Re: Cross-Training my kids?

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Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Violence was a fact of life for some of the at-risk youth you taught. It is not a fact of life for most suburban children. Furthermore, back to my earlier point: if it is a fact of the child's life, there are more effective and appropriate responses than teaching the child self-defense. If you send a child to a martial arts school to learn self-defense, but do nothing else to address the threat of violence in the child's life, that's like driving a car with no brakes and installing an extra-big airbag as a solution.
Or here?
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Old 12-18-2007, 12:40 PM   #62
Joseph Madden
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Re: Cross-Training my kids?

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
I find it interesting that all those disagreeing with what they call my "logic" are male. With different perspectives, to be sure, but it's interesting to hear not just similar so-called "logic", but even similar phrasings. Somehow I don't believe it's because this POV you all are espousing is a self-evident truth.

Let me try this again. Think, please, just for a minute, about the situations in which you think a child might need self-defense. Think about it honestly. Once you've discarded however many of those situations that, on reflection, really could be solved by the child some other way, you're left with a number of other situations ranging from playground scuffles to serious bullying to stranger assault (which, I believe, is by far the least likely threat of violence to a child, particularly a suburban child) to assault by someone who is known and trusted (and whom the child is told by its parents to trust and obey). In each and every one of those situations, I assert, to teach a child self-defense as the solution is like spitting on a fire. It might put out the fire...if it's a very small one. But in all cases, the fire could have and should have been prevented -- by adults. In nearly all cases, it is beyond the child's resources to solve the problem comprehensively. And yet parents march their children off to dojos for the warm and fuzzy feeling it gets them, that now their child will learn "self-defense", and gosh, at the same time will learn this "self-discipline" thing, and all those other good buzzwords. They can almost never articulate exactly what they mean by these things, they cannot describe the problem in detail or provide a sensible and logical descrption of how they think martial arts training would solve it. Maybe the sad truth is that the "problem" parents are trying to solve is their own feeling of discomfort, and if an unsupported belief that your child is learning "self-defense" will alleviate that feeling of discomfort...then the problem is solved.

Lest people continue to misunderstand my position, I'm not completely opposed to kids training martial arts. For the most part, I think it doesn't do much harm and may do some good, much as any socializing physical activity would. What I am against are unrealistic parental expectations, and parental failures to grapple with either real threats to a child's safety or their own unrealistic fears of same.
Or even here? Your last statement seems to advocate that your not really opposed to martial arts training as it may do some good. Would that good include teaching the child how to defend themselves? Or that the child use said arts to defend themselves in case they are attacked? Or do you believe it will just give them something to do on a Saturday morning like soccer practice.

Last edited by Joseph Madden : 12-18-2007 at 12:44 PM.
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Old 12-18-2007, 12:47 PM   #63
Joseph Madden
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Re: Cross-Training my kids?

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
In my case adults got involved. First my parents called the school. I was taken to the principles office. He offered to help me. I told him the names of the children. He had a talk with them (no idea what was said). I was then beat up after school for having 'told on them'. At this point kids are suspended. I was then beat up that weekend again for 'crying to my parents'. Now my parents contacted their parents. Their parents punished the kids. Again I am beaten up. Now we are all taken into a conference room with the school admin to talk about 'the problem'. After talking about our feelings and how nobody is a loser, we are sent home and a week later I am again being picked on for being a 'dork' and a 'crybaby wuss who tells on people". Then I made the horrible mistake of wearing a martial arts shirt to school. I got beaten up for 'thinking I was tough'. The kids got in trouble, and I got beaten up for 'telling on them'. This eventually trains me to bottle up and not tell anyone I am getting beaten up because then I'll get beaten up worse. My grades suffer, I just become anti-social. My mom even took me to see a therapist. Mind you this is not just a couple kids, It wasn't as simple as kicking a few kids out of school. This is how boys operate. There is a hierarchy, and I was at the very bottom.

Finally, I get one good adult who tells me the best advice ever "You want to stop a bully, you can't let him win. You fight him with everything you got. If you lose, you come back the next day and you fight him again until eventually you beat him. Even if that means cheating." The next time I got picked on, I challenged the kid instead of sulking. He pushed me into a corner and tried to punch me in the chest. I took all that bottle anger and I whooped him good. So good he didn't come back to school for a few days. I got sent home, suspended, and NEVER picked on again for the rest of my school career. I wasn't Mr. Popular, but the lack of kids picking on me turned my attitude around, I made a lot of friends and had a great time in highschool. All because I beat up 1 bully.

That lesson holds with me to this day, I have never backed down to a bully. And most bullys seem to know this, and they don't even try to begin with.

I won't try to preach non-violence to my kids if I have them. I will tell them the same thing that was told to me about bullys. Knock em out, knock em out hard.

The biggest problem is adults do not understand the social structures of children. They seem to think kids behave rationally, or intentionally. Especially with boys, there is a need to develop a physical social structure. Anything adults try to do to upset that structure is only going to lead to the kid who 'told' being lower on the totem pole.
Don, I think you and I were failed by the system. We had to take care of the problem ourselves. At least we didn't do it with automatic gun fire in a cafeteria.
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Old 12-18-2007, 01:22 PM   #64
DonMagee
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Re: Cross-Training my kids?

Luckily the guy who gave me the advice that solved my problem was a old teacher who was sick of watching the 'PC' approach to helping kids. So I guess the teachers did indeed help me. Just goes to show that the old ways are sometimes the best ways.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 12-18-2007, 01:49 PM   #65
Joseph Madden
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Re: Cross-Training my kids?

Strange that you mentioned how your teacher helped you in the end. In my case while attending junior high, the day I fought back took place in music class. The bullies couldn't believe I had reacted that way and complained to the teacher. The same teacher they had bullied into crying one day by ignoring her and picking on her. Suffice it to say, the incident went unreported and I was never bothered by those bullies again. I could tell by the look on her face that she was happy that somebody finally dealt with them. I guess in the end, the system failed both her and I until I took action.
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Old 12-18-2007, 01:50 PM   #66
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Cross-Training my kids?

Haven't read the whole thread yet, but after reading a couple of Don's posts, I have to say they resonate with me.

The thing about standing up to a bully, is even if you lose, you get respect just for standing up. After a while, most bullies get tired of it, and leave it alone, knowing they'll take some hits, you'll get respect for standing up for yourself, and everyone else gets bored.

Sometimes though, more drastic options are called for. And once you start down that path, it just takes a stubborn bully for an escalating war to start. Who knows where that can end? The world is a very different place from when I was that age.

When I was faced with a bunch of idiots stoning me in the woods, I went home, put my german shepherd on a long chain, and went hunting Nobody ever threw rocks at me again.

Today, someone might go get a gun. Not good. I'm really not sure what I would tell a child today, but it might well be something like what Don said if it was in the suburbs. In the city?? Like North Philly? No way...

And that is really the shame of it. Kids will be kids, should be kids, and pretty much need to work out some of their issues on their own. But when it gets to the point where that involves gunplay, knives, and other types of leathal encounters...I think our society has failed kids in a major way.

Best,
Ron

Last edited by Ron Tisdale : 12-18-2007 at 01:53 PM.

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Old 12-18-2007, 01:53 PM   #67
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Re: Cross-Training my kids?

Excellent points Ron. It is a different age. The incidents of female on female and even male on female/female on male violence had risen significantly in the past few decades. And this is with intervention techniques. We now have cyber-bullying. How does a child deal with that? Perhaps we can create a form of cyber-self defense?

Last edited by Joseph Madden : 12-18-2007 at 01:56 PM.
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Old 12-18-2007, 02:13 PM   #68
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Re: Cross-Training my kids?

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Joseph Madden wrote: View Post
Perhaps in another few thousand years we will get to the point that the bonobos have reached or rather are trying to attain. In case you hadn't notice Mary, I wasn't advocating that you raise children as a chimpanzee, but that perhaps the bonobos had the right idea with regards to how to deescalate a violent situation. Nor was I comparing you to a chimpanzee. I was using the chimpanzee analogy to show how little humanity has evolved with regards to its use of violence. I, for one, would hope all adults would use any and every tool in their experience to help a child from being a bully and from being bullied. But for every good intention, sometimes the child must rely on his or her strength to make it through life.
I think we're a lot closer to agreement than we are to disagreement, really. I think that if someone feels the need for a child to be taught self-defense, clearly there's a problem -- and it's a specific problem, not just the vague pathos of the human condition. The problem could be in one of several areas:

1. The parent (or whoever) could have a distorted idea of threat to the child. This isn't as bad as the kid getting stomped, but it is a problem.

2. The parent (or whoever) could perceive a real threat to the child, but be turning to self-defense as the solution of first (or early) resort. That's a problem, too. The kid may be able to learn adequate self-defense against some schoolyard bullies, but not against an assailant who is significantly larger, and meanwhile you've conveyed to the kid that adults are powerless to help (or will not help) -- it's up to you and your fists.

3. The parent (or whoever) could perceive a real threat to the kid, and be turning to self-defense as a solution after things have gotten to a very bad state. Again, I don't think that the level of physical self-defense a child can learn will be adequate here.

In summary, I don't think it's the best solution for a real or perceived threat to a child, and when people turn to it as a solution, I have to wonder -- what else have you done to address the problem? What was the result, and why do you think this will work better? That's one reason why I have reservations about kids training martial arts.
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Old 12-18-2007, 02:16 PM   #69
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Re: Cross-Training my kids?

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Or even here?
Joseph, how can I be misrepresented by my own words? You misrepresent them when you say that I said something I didn't. Now, can you please leave off the copious and repeated cut and paste? Address my points; don't just keep cutting and pasting and repeating the same thing.
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Old 12-18-2007, 02:20 PM   #70
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Cross-Training my kids?

Hi Mary,

I think your original statement was reservations about kids training martial arts for self defense. I think I share those specific reservations. More than that, whenever friends with kids who know I train ask, I tell them to get their kids into a judo program or wrestling or boxing first. Then, if they want to do a "MA" later, sure. Later pretty much being in the teens. I think martial sports are great for kids, and give a more realistic background for martial art in any case.

Self defense? That is a tough nut, for children or adults. Not sure I would recommend the German Shepherd approach to anyone...

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 12-18-2007, 03:18 PM   #71
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Re: Cross-Training my kids?

We have a pretty good example of a youngster postively implementing skills I believe he attained at the dojo right here:
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...=silver+valley
I agree that it is the adult's responsibility to make school a safe environment for all of them. That clearly isn't happening. I also feel it advantageous to give youngsters alternatives. Teaching youngsters martial arts should not be an alternative to creating safe schools, but I feel like it gives them a set of tools to deal with situations like bullying and other types of aggressive behavoir. I am unable to have as much impact on school policy, and believe me, I try ,) as I am on the youngsters I teach. The kids seem much more open and receptive to learning than the administrators I have dealt with.
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Old 12-19-2007, 08:15 AM   #72
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Re: Cross-Training my kids?

Right on Ricky.

Also, I disagree with you Mary and I'm a female. I don't think its only the male perspective that disagrees with you. They just happen to be vocal at the moment.

The world should be kept safe for children, by the adults. But we have to realize that it doesn't always happen. I know from my experience teaching kids Aikido how good martial arts can be for children. It is a great tool for them. And what they get from it isn't all "self defense".....its balance, control, respect, courage, loyalty, honor....I can go on and on about the benefits. I could get testimony from every single one of our many parents about how much their kids have benefited from martial arts. Kids have a right to be able to stand up for themselves. And they have the right to have the tools to do so. We can't assume that every day, every single minute, every single instance that there will be an adult present to handle every bad situation that a child gets into. Plus, isn't that part of growing up? Learning to stand up for yourself and handle your own problems?

Faeth
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Old 12-19-2007, 10:29 AM   #73
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
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Re: Cross-Training my kids?

I'll just point out Faith that most of your points do not pertain to a child physically defending themselves from an attack, which was Mary's main point.

Especially since most (I know, not all, your 12 year old BB is the exception) MAs for kids = Kiddie Day Care in Angry White Pajamas (KDCAWP [TM]), if I may borrow the phrase...

Best,
Ron

Last edited by Ron Tisdale : 12-19-2007 at 10:32 AM.

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 12-19-2007, 10:48 AM   #74
Faith Hansen
 
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Re: Cross-Training my kids?

That is true Ron, you caught me..... I wanted to make the point that aside from the "self defense" aspect (which I personally think is valid) many martial arts for kids have many, many other aspects to them. And yes, many can be kiddie day care.
A case in point for Kiddie Self Defense:
One of our 7 year olds was being hassled at school and was grabbed from behind at school. He executed a technique we had taught him, and escaped the grab. The other child was not injured and didn't bother him again.
We have a bunch of accounts like this. The experience always gives the kids a good boost in self esteem.
Plus, martial arts can also teach many good aspects in Self Protection for kids......so they are more apt to keep themselves out of fights. Eh?

Faeth
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Old 12-19-2007, 12:32 PM   #75
Joseph Madden
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Re: Cross-Training my kids?

I'll concede that teaching someone as young as 5 or 6 years old a martial art is a waste of time. The most you can expect the child to receive is physical exercise (which most of us will agree is a good thing). However, once the child has reached adolescence I think the self defense aspects of a martial art can be of great benefit, with regards to protecting the young person from threats, if the system fails them which it can on occasion. As I stated previously, any tools we can give the child the better, as long as they receive guidance from capable people.
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