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Old 10-23-2007, 03:17 PM   #51
gdandscompserv
 
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

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William Hazen wrote: View Post
And as long as you practice it in the spirit of love and harmony
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The last time someone showed up at a seminar to demonstrate that type of resistance They got a black eye and partially separated shoulder for thier trouble,
 
Old 10-23-2007, 04:38 PM   #52
G DiPierro
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

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Your Welcome to come to our next seminar and show us how to do it....Of course resistance to us means attacking with Punches, Kicks, Throws and Take Downs...I highly suggest not to just interpret resistance to mean grabbing someones wrist strongly or wrestling them through a technique during the demonstration in front of the class... Only beginners and intermediate students grab...The last time someone showed up at a seminar to demonstrate that type of resistance They got a black eye and partially separated shoulder for thier trouble, and Sensei was trying his very best not to hurt them...We consider it poor form to suprise someone by trying to out muscle them and not allow them to understand what they are being taught.
Nothing wrong with that kind of practice as long as both people are operating under the same rules, but it's not really what I'm into. If I were, I would spend a lot time more training in striking arts or MMA, but my goal in martial arts is not to learn how to hurt people. Generally the type of resistance training I like to do is where both parties agree not to strike or attempt to injure the other. Nage does not use hard atemi and neither does uke. Sure, you can do it the other way but then it's more dangerous, and it's not necessarily any better, just different.

Ideally, and ultimately, I'd like to be able to defend myself against someone who is trying to strike me or otherwise injure me without having to respond in kind. Of course, that is much harder than what you are talking about because I would be restricting myself to a much more limited and difficult to execute set of options than the other party. Until I get to that point, I think the type of training I've been doing is getting me closer to where I want to be, much more so than most of what I've seen in aikido.

Quite often, even at the shihan level, I see people in aikido not even operating under the assumption that nage must at least follow the same rules as uke. If you allow nage to use atemi while uke just has to stand there and passively grab, as I've seen many shihan and other teachers demonstrate, then your practice has very little martial value. Of course it's much easier to win when you allow yourself a wider range of options while restricting what the other person can do, but true skill in aikido, in my opinion, is when you can still prevail despite restricting your range of options to those that will not cause pain or injury while allowing the other person to even try to employ such measures.

Last edited by G DiPierro : 10-23-2007 at 04:41 PM.
 
Old 10-23-2007, 05:43 PM   #53
aikidoc
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Kokyu dosa is an exercise not a technique. I'll look for the DVD-this I have to see.
 
Old 10-24-2007, 01:22 AM   #54
HATOMOTO
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Without getting to involved in this whole discussion and because I am tired from working 16 hours a day, new business, 7 months old.
blah blah...

When you are training / practicng a specific technique as uke, you are attempting to simulate an impossiblity - that is to the best of your ability recreate a real life attack. There has to be intent and commitment. This is extremely difficult to do. So resisting someone's kake in my opinion should only be done if: 1) you do not know what technique will be practiced, 2) only if communicated with your partner & 3) be honest with yourself that your attack has intent and commitment.

My 2 cents.
 
Old 10-24-2007, 05:24 AM   #55
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Here's and idea.

Have a really strong uke grab ryo kata tori and hold with elbows bent. Uke can move nage back and forth but not pull up or down. Uke holds really strong and hard ...as hard as they can.

Nage extends ki at uke....smile and say "how are ya doing....are ya having a good day? See what happens.

It is a great exercise.... try it....
Mary
 
Old 10-24-2007, 08:31 AM   #56
David Yap
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

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Kokyu dosa is an exercise not a technique. I'll look for the DVD-this I have to see.
Absolutely. An exercise to discover the technique(s) of breaking resistance or finding the path of least resistance.

Regards

David
 
Old 10-24-2007, 08:57 AM   #57
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Shodan = Beginner, so cut us some slack, dude. While I admire your desire not to be abused, in turn, you must try not to abuse others... and in a training scenario, throwing an unexpected reversal on a technique when someone else is teaching the class is potentially abusing to your partner. Correcting someone is one thing, but teaching by example is a more effective means than countering someone all of the time. If you want to train with a good martial spirit, that is one thing, but to violate someone simply because their techniques are poorly formed is rude to say the least... That's why we call it 'practice.'

In your own classes, you set the expectations, and that is a perfectly valid to counter poor techniques if that is your teaching method - and it is a standard in my dojo among the Dan Ranked - but at a seminar led by a shihan, his or her rules are the standard. So mellow out and enjoy the aikido; Shodan techniques are always going to be sloppy, tight, and or over muscled -- if they weren't, they'd be Godans, not Shodans

In response to: "This is getting ridiculous and I am losing interest in this discussion but since you want to press the issue I try to be a cooperative uke and let people do the technique but I'm not going to allow people to abuse that and me with sloppy, tight, overly muscled technique, as many (most?) people in aikido have, especially at the shodan level. So I can either shut them down or reverse them, which usually results in them them getting upset and often trying to turn the interaction into a fight or contest, or I can tell them what they are doing wrong and give them the opportunity to fix it. Yet no matter which choice I make apparently it will upset someone or other.
Report Post Reply With Quote"


A little danger is a knowledge thing...

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Old 10-24-2007, 10:25 AM   #58
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

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Shodan = Beginner, so cut us some slack, dude. While I admire your desire not to be abused, in turn, you must try not to abuse others... and in a training scenario, throwing an unexpected reversal on a technique when someone else is teaching the class is potentially abusing to your partner. Correcting someone is one thing, but teaching by example is a more effective means than countering someone all of the time. If you want to train with a good martial spirit, that is one thing, but to violate someone simply because their techniques are poorly formed is rude to say the least... That's why we call it 'practice.'

In your own classes, you set the expectations, and that is a perfectly valid to counter poor techniques if that is your teaching method - and it is a standard in my dojo among the Dan Ranked - but at a seminar led by a shihan, his or her rules are the standard. So mellow out and enjoy the aikido; Shodan techniques are always going to be sloppy, tight, and or over muscled -- if they weren't, they'd be Godans, not Shodans
Yes, this is why I don't like countering people at seminars and I rarely do it unless someone is really trying to force something on me. I have no problem taking cooperative ukemi but things would almost always go a lot smoother if people were more willing to take a minor correction here and there so that they can do the technique better and in a way that actually moves me in the right direction. Sometimes I don't even like working with lower-level yudansha at seminars because they can be the least likely to accept any input (either verbal or non-verbal) about what they are doing wrong. They don't want to change but think they already know everything they need to know.

On the other hand, I often prefer working with mudansha because they usually don't have such big egos and are a lot more willing to accept the idea that what they are doing isn't working and make some minor change that makes practice nicer for both of us. Higher-level people (4-dan and up) can also be nice to work with since they have a better idea of what they are doing and also often can sense when what they are doing isn't working just by feel and change it, although this is certainly not universal. Some of them too have similar problems as the lower level yudansha, although their technique is typically somewhat better.

Last edited by G DiPierro : 10-24-2007 at 10:27 AM.
 
Old 10-24-2007, 10:52 AM   #59
aikidoc
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Here's where I have a major point of disagreement. It is inappropriate for anyone other than perhaps the shihan's senior instructors to be correcting anyone on the mat other than leading them with ukemi. If you want to teach someone on another instructors mat you should have their permission or set up your own seminars. It is disrespectful and makes the big assumption you know what the instructor wants. In my experience, when I see others do that they are usually correcting them not the way it was shown-so error begets error. It is also dangerous to reverse someone on the mat. They are studying a specific technique as demonstrated and even if not properly executed it should not be reversed-I have seen torn shoulders from that type of behavior. It is not the role of the participants to correct others or assume they have the right to do so or reverse them unless practicing kaeshi-waza specifically. With proper ukemi you can lead some in the right direction.
 
Old 10-24-2007, 10:56 AM   #60
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

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Yes, this is why I don't like countering people at seminars and I rarely do it unless someone is really trying to force something on me. I have no problem taking cooperative ukemi but things would almost always go a lot smoother if people were more willing to take a minor correction here and there so that they can do the technique better and in a way that actually moves me in the right direction. Sometimes I don't even like working with lower-level yudansha at seminars because they can be the least likely to accept any input (either verbal or non-verbal) about what they are doing wrong. They don't want to change but think they already know everything they need to know.

On the other hand, I often prefer working with mudansha because they usually don't have such big egos and are a lot more willing to accept the idea that what they are doing isn't working and make some minor change that makes practice nicer for both of us. Higher-level people (4-dan and up) can also be nice to work with since they have a better idea of what they are doing and also often can sense when what they are doing isn't working just by feel and change it, although this is certainly not universal. Some of them too have similar problems as the lower level yudansha, although their technique is typically somewhat better.
I would suggest perhaps letting the Shihan do the correcting. When I encounter an ego like this I just simplly call the Shihan over "ask a question" and let him watch the Yudansha's technique. A good way to blend with someones ego is not to engage it with your own. Every Uke has something to teach me... Especially the ones who think they are better than thier technique. LOL

William Hazen
 
Old 10-24-2007, 10:58 AM   #61
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

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and in a training scenario, throwing an unexpected reversal on a technique when someone else is teaching the class is potentially abusing to your partner.
Lol

My first ever lesson as an instructor in charge of my own club. I had no other aikido people present, just little old me, so no one in the class knew how to react to anything I did. I was demonstrating ikkyo on a guy and paused to explain a point, I was standing he was bent forward with his arm horizontally out in front of me. He interrupted what I was saying to the rest of the class and said something, I didn't quite catch what he was saying but it turned out that he had said: "I can sweep your legs". I said "Sorry, what was that?", he didn't answer, just swept my legs out from under me and we both ended up flat on our backs, I had to actively take care not to elbow him in the head/chest as we hit the ground as I recall.

Of course next it was my turn to show that he couldn't do that to me if I was doing the ikkyo full on, it had just been because I stopped to speak to the class.... I slammed his face right into the mat, it was a miracle he wasn't seriously injured when I think about it now. Not one of my finer moments.

He never did come back to training.

Mike

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."
-Martin Luther King Jr
 
Old 10-24-2007, 12:28 PM   #62
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Although that is a also a fallacy in training. He was wrong by using your pause to explain as an opening, but you were wrong by showing he couldn't do that again.

The you can't do that again argument is flawed. Once you know what he is going to try to do, you better damn well be able to stop him, especially because it is a counter from a control position.

I try to explain this to a lot of non-sparing people I know and they never get it. I'll show a single or double leg and they will say "You can't do that to me." Now, if they know exactly what I'm going to do, they should be able to stop it (providing they have any martial skill), espeically in a kata form situation. My response to arguments like this is that situations dictate tactics. I am not going to shoot a single leg on a person who knows it's coming, I'm going to take his balance first, probably use some other techniques he is open to like a good kick to the leg or punch to the face.

I've even had to explain this to some people who do spar. I know a judoka who looked at my tai otoshi and said I would never be able to throw him with it. Of course I can't if he knows that is what I'm going to do, I have to set it up first. So I asked him if I could try and tossed him with Osoto Gari. He said "that's not tai otosih!". I responded with "I know, but you were defending tai otoshi.".

Anyways I just don't like people pulling the "You can't do that again" card. Even if it is correct that you can't do X technique while Y technique is being done, it is still lame.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
 
Old 10-24-2007, 01:04 PM   #63
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Please don't feed the trolls...

Robert Cronin
 
Old 10-24-2007, 01:16 PM   #64
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

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Here's where I have a major point of disagreement. It is inappropriate for anyone other than perhaps the shihan's senior instructors to be correcting anyone on the mat other than leading them with ukemi. If you want to teach someone on another instructors mat you should have their permission or set up your own seminars. It is disrespectful and makes the big assumption you know what the instructor wants.
That depends a lot on the instructor. I know some shihan don't like any talking on the mat, but when I trained with Kanai-sensei, my understanding was that he wanted his students to interact on the mat and teach each other. I think part of it was that he knew he was training teachers, and he wanted us to learn how to teach and learn from each other under his supervision. Part of it was also probably that he did not give much verbal instruction himself and so relied on his senior (and even more junior) students to interpret what he was doing for other students. Even if a teacher did give a lot of verbal correction himself, there is no way that one teacher in a class of 100 or even 50 people can give everyone the amount of personal attention they need.

While I can't say for sure that this was his official policy, I would often talk quite a lot on the mat, perhaps more than some people would have liked, and nothing was ever said, whereas I was told on other occasions quite clearly not to do certain other things, like resisting, which was not well-tolerated there. There were also times when I trained with very senior students who did quite a bit of talking and correcting, and I got a lot out of those sessions, certainly far more than if they had said nothing. Of course, there were times too when we just practiced and nothing was said, and those were valuable too. To me, both had and have their place, and avoiding either one for any reason is missing something important. My opinion is that teachers that do not like or allow talking on the mat are short-changing their students and preventing them from developing important skills, both in learning how to interact with each and in improving their techniques through learning from each other.

Quote:
In my experience, when I see others do that they are usually correcting them not the way it was shown-so error begets error.
This assumes that the way it was shown was correct and that the way the student is doing it is incorrect. This might not necessarily be the case.

Quote:
It is also dangerous to reverse someone on the mat. They are studying a specific technique as demonstrated and even if not properly executed it should not be reversed-I have seen torn shoulders from that type of behavior.
If your technique is dangerous, then it is dangerous. In my own dojo I reverse people all of the time and nobody has ever gotten hurt from it. This is because I know how to do techniques spontaneously without hurting people.

Quote:
It is not the role of the participants to correct others or assume they have the right to do so or reverse them unless practicing kaeshi-waza specifically. With proper ukemi you can lead some in the right direction.
That is your opinion. I have found that many people, particularly at the lower dan levels as I explained in my last post, cannot feel even strong feedback via ukemi that their movement is wrong. In those situations, the only options are to stop them and verbally explain what they are doing wrong or lead them via ukemi by turning the ukemi into a counter. You seem to think neither option is appropriate, so I'm not sure what you would do in a situation where someone was ignoring your non-verbal feedback and just trying to yank you around with sloppy technique. I'm guessing you might retaliate as nage, which is what many people in aikido do, but since I'm not training to learn how to hurt people, this is not an option that I want to use.

Last edited by G DiPierro : 10-24-2007 at 01:27 PM.
 
Old 10-24-2007, 01:38 PM   #65
Tom Fish
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

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Don Magee wrote: View Post
Although that is a also a fallacy in training. He was wrong by using your pause to explain as an opening, but you were wrong by showing he couldn't do that again.

The you can't do that again argument is flawed. Once you know what he is going to try to do, you better damn well be able to stop him, especially because it is a counter from a control position.

I try to explain this to a lot of non-sparing people I know and they never get it. I'll show a single or double leg and they will say "You can't do that to me." Now, if they know exactly what I'm going to do, they should be able to stop it (providing they have any martial skill), espeically in a kata form situation. My response to arguments like this is that situations dictate tactics. I am not going to shoot a single leg on a person who knows it's coming, I'm going to take his balance first, probably use some other techniques he is open to like a good kick to the leg or punch to the face.

I've even had to explain this to some people who do spar. I know a judoka who looked at my tai otoshi and said I would never be able to throw him with it. Of course I can't if he knows that is what I'm going to do, I have to set it up first. So I asked him if I could try and tossed him with Osoto Gari. He said "that's not tai otosih!". I responded with "I know, but you were defending tai otoshi.".

Anyways I just don't like people pulling the "You can't do that again" card. Even if it is correct that you can't do X technique while Y technique is being done, it is still lame.
This post really catches the whole discussion and presents the solution as well. When I'm practicing a new technique, it just slows things down to have an Uke who won't give you the opportunity to look at the thing. When someone who is trying to learn is paired up with someone who is trying to be an obstacle, at the least it's a waste of time. At the worst, it wastes your seminar time and money, where you hope to gather as much information as possible.

Don's got the right solution to this problem. If someone feels the need to try to defeat everything they know is coming, use something to counter it. Make it obvious that you want to train with the class, but it is your class time that is being wasted. Then find someone who wants to study and refuse to work with a jerk. Eventually, either the jerk wises up or stands by himself, in the way, on the mat.

On another note, trying to fight with someone who is putting on a seminar is quite rude and inexcusable. Regardless of your skill level, other people are there to learn. Why waste their time? If you are at a skill level that prevents you from learning, stop going to seminars so that at least the people who go there can enjoy them and get their moneys worth.
 
Old 10-24-2007, 02:17 PM   #66
G DiPierro
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

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Tom Fish wrote: View Post
On another note, trying to fight with someone who is putting on a seminar is quite rude and inexcusable. Regardless of your skill level, other people are there to learn. Why waste their time? If you are at a skill level that prevents you from learning, stop going to seminars so that at least the people who go there can enjoy them and get their moneys worth.
I wouldn't consider giving teachers some resistance to see what they can do to be fighting with them. Far from it. I'm just gauging their skill level so that I can know how hard I can go at them so that they will be challenged but not so much that they can't do anything.

And I actually don't go to seminars much anymore. The two incidents discussed here were at seminars where it was either my first time training with a teacher or my first time touching hands with him, and I've not trained again with either teacher. It's not that I wouldn't give either one of them another chance under the right circumstances, but just that I wouldn't go well out of my way to do it, as I had to in those cases.

In the past few years, there's really only one aikido teacher that I have trained with again after having touched hands with him for the first time, and as I far as knew he not only didn't mind how I did things but often even encouraged it. I'm not sure that's still the case, so I'm undecided about training with him again, but I wouldn't rule it out unless I knew for sure that he didn't want to have me.

If it was possible to get hands-on time with shihan-level instructors outside of their seminars, then this wouldn't be an issue. I would gladly pay $100 (or whatever the seminar fee is) for an hour of private freestyle training with one these guys in lieu of eight hours of seminar training, but as far as I know they don't offer that option, so the only way for me to find out what they have is to sign up for their open seminars like everyone else and make sure they notice me enough to come over and work with me hands-on. That's why I do things the way I do them.

When they start allowing people to touch hands with them in some other format, then you can argue that I have no business corrupting their seminars with what I'm doing. Until then, this is the only way.

Last edited by G DiPierro : 10-24-2007 at 02:24 PM.
 
Old 10-24-2007, 02:27 PM   #67
aikidoc
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

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Giancarlo DiPierro wrote: View Post
That depends a lot on the instructor. I know some shihan don't like any talking on the mat, but when I trained with Kanai-sensei, my understanding was that he wanted his students to interact on the mat and teach each other. I think part of it was that he knew he was training teachers, and he wanted us to learn how to teach and learn from each other under his supervision. Part of it was also probably that he did not give much verbal instruction himself and so relied on his senior (and even more junior) students to interpret what he was doing for other students. Even if a teacher did give a lot of verbal correction himself, there is no way that one teacher in a class of 100 or even 50 people can give everyone the amount of personal attention they need.
Was this in a seminar situation or in an actual class? Whatever the situation, unless you are a direct student of the instructor, I don't think it is appropriate to correct others. He/she is in charge of the mat and safety on it and therefore gets to decide who instructs.

Quote:
Giancarlo DiPierro wrote: View Post
My opinion is that teachers that do not like or allow talking on the mat are short-changing their students and preventing them from developing important skills, both in learning how to interact with each and in improving their techniques through learning from each other.
With constraints, I don't disagree. However, in a large seminar if everyone is talking the volume gets very high and on top of that too much talking is not training.

Quote:
Giancarlo DiPierro wrote: View Post
This assumes that the way it was shown was correct and that the way the student is doing it is incorrect. This might not necessarily be the case.
When it is not your mat or seminar you don't get to decide if the technique is correct-there are many ways to do a technique. If you don't like the way it is being done, then leave the seminar. You've at that time already decided they cannot teach you anything.

Quote:
Giancarlo DiPierro wrote: View Post
If your technique is dangerous, then it is dangerous. In my own dojo I reverse people all of the time and nobody has ever gotten hurt from it. This is because I know how to do techniques spontaneously without hurting people.
In your own dojo you can do what you want. But reversing technique of someone trying to learn a technique unless practicing kaeshi-waza is potentially dangerous since they are expecting to practice one thing and another occurs abruptly. I have see people getting hurt when someone does this. Others might disagree with your last statement based on their posts.

Quote:
Giancarlo DiPierro wrote: View Post
That is your opinion. I have found that many people, particularly at the lower dan levels as I explained in my last post, cannot feel even strong feedback via ukemi that their movement is wrong. In those situations, the only options are to stop them and verbally explain what they are doing wrong or lead them via ukemi by turning the ukemi into a counter. You seem to think neither option is appropriate, so I'm not sure what you would do in a situation where someone was ignoring your non-verbal feedback and just trying to yank you around with sloppy technique. I'm guessing you might retaliate as nage, which is what many people in aikido do, but since I'm not training to learn how to hurt people, this is not an option that I want to use.
What I do in such a situation is not allow them to injure me-but not by hurting them. I also try to do the technique slowly for them to hopefully help them see what should be done-assuming I'm in a seminar with my
sensei where I know what he wants. I have been teaching longer than you have been practicing and have never injured a student in class or in a seminar. If I feel they are out of control or outside their comfort zone, I simply let off the technique. I do not tolerate injuries on my mat-period. If you deliberately injure someone by doing something not shown or reversing them you are off the mat until they recover and return to training. If they don't recover or return, then the party injuring the student needs to find a new home. Most injuries are due to egos and the inability to feel the response of the uke and forcing the technique when it is obvious the uke is in danger i.e., thinking about yourself more than protecting your training partner. I don't tolerate it period. We all have jobs, etc. and cannot afford to be off work recovering from an injury. It is simply not necessary to train effectively. That is not to say techniques are not painful or uncomfortable. However, I expect students to be able to feel the flexibility and capability of their ukes and to back off when someone taps. Accidental injuries do occasional occur when someone tries to take ukemi they are not comfortable with-all have been minor tweaks. Students deliberately trying to stop a technique while I'm demonstrating will usually find it unconfortable-pressure points are quite effective in that regard, as are atemi, reversals, etc. Again, with control.

Last edited by aikidoc : 10-24-2007 at 02:34 PM.
 
Old 10-24-2007, 02:27 PM   #68
Will Prusner
 
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Straight Face Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Quote:
Giancarlo DiPierro wrote: View Post
I would often talk quite a lot on the mat, perhaps more than some people would have liked, and nothing was ever said, whereas I was told on other occasions quite clearly not to do certain other things, like resisting, which was not well-tolerated there.
Sounds like a really fun class.

I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration...

ART! - http://birdsbeaks.blogspot.com/
 
Old 10-24-2007, 03:21 PM   #69
Joe Jutsu
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

If resisting a shihan is your thing, seek out David Shaner sensei, Ki Society 7th dan. Last year when I saw him, what he refers to as "kaisho" training was on the bill, where he consistently used bigger uke's, none of whom were from Ki Society, to resist his technique with everything they had, techniques that they knew were coming in a teaching scenario at that. Very inspiring!
 
Old 10-24-2007, 03:31 PM   #70
Amir Krause
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Quote:
Giancarlo DiPierro wrote: View Post
I wouldn't consider giving teachers some resistance to see what they can do to be fighting with them. Far from it. I'm just gauging their skill level so that I can know how hard I can go at them so that they will be challenged but not so much that they can't do anything.

And I actually don't go to seminars much anymore. The two incidents discussed here were at seminars where it was either my first time training with a teacher or my first time touching hands with him, and I've not trained again with either teacher. It's not that I wouldn't give either one of them another chance under the right circumstances, but just that I wouldn't go well out of my way to do it, as I had to in those cases.

In the past few years, there's really only one aikido teacher that I have trained with again after having touched hands with him for the first time, and as I far as knew he not only didn't mind how I did things but often even encouraged it. I'm not sure that's still the case, so I'm undecided about training with him again, but I wouldn't rule it out unless I knew for sure that he didn't want to have me.

If it was possible to get hands-on time with shihan-level instructors outside of their seminars, then this wouldn't be an issue. I would gladly pay $100 (or whatever the seminar fee is) for an hour of private freestyle training with one these guys in lieu of eight hours of seminar training, but as far as I know they don't offer that option, so the only way for me to find out what they have is to sign up for their open seminars like everyone else and make sure they notice me enough to come over and work with me hands-on. That's why I do things the way I do them.

When they start allowing people to touch hands with them in some other format, then you can argue that I have no business corrupting their seminars with what I'm doing. Until then, this is the only way.
I could have agreed with you on the fact that Shihans can be countered, and since I come from a different system I might even agree about quastionable specific technics I have seen some visiting (here) Shihans (when I took the time and money to try and learn, lately I had other things to do).

Unlike you, I would be carefull of concluding such techniques are indicative of an overall technical level, I diffrentiate between the didactive tools a teacher feels would be most helpful at some stage, and the teacher own technical understanding. I am also aware of the limitations a visiting Shihan has, he does not know the students nor their ability to take Ukemi, thus he is often bound to choose less dangerous technical variations, even though he knows better.

I think your above post indicates my main problem with your message - you take the situation out of context. The visiting Shihan came to a seminar, not to cross hands with you, and you insist on abusing the learning opportunity he gives. The excuse of not having an opportunity does not stand, since most Shihans do have direct students who can easily practice with them. Your not being one of those students is at least partially a matter of your chioces. so don't blaim them.

Amir
 
Old 10-24-2007, 03:48 PM   #71
G DiPierro
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Quote:
John Riggs wrote: View Post
Was this in a seminar situation or in an actual class? Whatever the situation, unless you are a direct student of the instructor, I don't think it is appropriate to correct others. He/she is in charge of the mat and safety on it and therefore gets to decide who instructs.
Both. Sometimes I even felt like he wanted me to take a more active role when I deliberately didn't say anything to someone I was working with.

I would say that unless I am in a situation where it is clear that there is no talking going on anywhere on the mat, I'm going to assume that talking is fine. What I don't buy is the concept that there should be no talking or students helping each other when that's obviously what people are doing. In that case, it's not my responsibility anymore, it's the teacher's, and good luck trying to enforce that in a seminar situation where people come from different environments with different expectations. Even in regular dojo training, there's been times when I've been asked not to talk to anyone during training, which I dutifully did for a few weeks until people started getting upset and wondering why I wasn't helping them anymore. It became painfully obvious that the policy wasn't working and just didn't make sense in that dojo.

Quote:
When it is not your mat or seminar you don't get to decide if the technique is correct-there are many ways to do a technique. If you don't like the way it is being done, then leave the seminar. You've at that time already decided they cannot teach you anything.
Just because I think one thing a teacher does isn't correct doesn't mean that I cannot learn anything from that teacher. It's not an all or nothing proposition. To me, such thinking is a major part of the problem in aikido because it encourages people to not think for themselves. Instead it tells people to unquestioningly accept everything that their teacher says while unquestioningly rejecting anything that does not come from that teacher. I evaluate everything on its own merit and often agree with some of what a teacher says or does while disagreeing with other things.

Quote:
In your own dojo you can do what you want. But reversing technique of someone trying to learn a technique unless practicing kaeshi-waza is potentially dangerous since they are expecting to practice one thing and another occurs abruptly. I have see people getting hurt when someone does this. Others might disagree with your last statement based on their posts.
You are still talking about the incident from over four years ago, huh? At that point I wouldn't say that I knew how to perform techniques (kaeshi-waza or otherwise) spontaneously without hurting people, but I've done a lot of freestyle training since then. Since most people don't train the way I have been (I didn't either very much prior to opening my own dojo), I wouldn't expect them to know how to reverse a technique without hurting someone. In any case, as I said, I usually don't like to reverse people at seminars anyway because they tend to get upset and turn the interaction into a fight or contest. I prefer to try to get them to change what they are doing without having to take it to the level of physically reversing them. If I can do this non-verbally, that's fine, but if not I have no problem discussing the issue with them to try to make the practice experience better for both parties.

Quote:
What I do in such a situation is not allow them to injure me-but not by hurting them. ... That is not to say techniques are not painful or uncomfortable.
When I say that I don't train to learn to hurt people, I'm not just talking about injuries. I'd say that if you are causing pain then you are hurting people, and also not doing the technique correctly to boot. So that means that those options you (and many other people in aikido) like to use to ensure compliance are still things I would avoid.

I think it's far a more productive use of my time and the other person's time to just to tell them what they are doing wrong and help them fix it. I did this a lot this past weekend and most of the people I did it with had no problem with it. They made good progress in the time we spent together and seemed glad to have had the opportunity to improve their technique. I even had a guy come up to me in the dining hall at camp several years and thank me for a giving him a 15-minute private lesson at the back of the mat (he was exaggerating a little bit).

I'm supposed to take that experience away from them because you think it's more "appropriate" or respectful to stand there and practice wordlessly? Keep in mind the fact that these people might not even get to experience any direct interaction with the instructor they paid to see at all, and even if so it's likely to be on the order of a few seconds or, if someone is really lucky, a few minutes. Sorry, but that just doesn't fly with me. People go well out of their way to come to these seminars and not just for the experience of taking the instructors class but also to practice with each other. If someone doesn't want my input and can do the technique effectively without it, that's one thing, but if both people consent to work together then I don't see how anyone (and especially not the person who is actually teaching the class) can say that this is wrong.
 
Old 10-24-2007, 03:58 PM   #72
G DiPierro
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Quote:
Amir Krause wrote: View Post
I think your above post indicates my main problem with your message - you take the situation out of context. The visiting Shihan came to a seminar, not to cross hands with you, and you insist on abusing the learning opportunity he gives. The excuse of not having an opportunity does not stand, since most Shihans do have direct students who can easily practice with them. Your not being one of those students is at least partially a matter of your chioces. so don't blaim them.
So you are saying that if I go take a regular class in the shihan's dojo then it's OK to give them some resistance, but it's not at a seminar? I doubt that even those people who disagree with me would agree with that. The whole purpose of seminars to give people access to instructors that they otherwise cannot work with. Why shouldn't that access include some demonstration of what the instructor can do? I traveled all the way there and paid my fee and I want to see how good this guy that the aikikai (or whatever organization) is touting as one of its best is against someone other than his trained dog-and-pony-show ukes. I don't see why that's unreasonable. Again, if it's such a problem to do this in class (and I don't think it is), then why not make some kind of arrangements to do it outside of class time? It really doesn't take that long.
 
Old 10-24-2007, 04:01 PM   #73
aikidoc
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Quote:
Giancarlo DiPierro wrote: View Post
When I say that I don't train to learn to hurt people, I'm not just talking about injuries. I'd say that if you are causing pain then you are hurting people, and also not doing the technique correctly to boot. So that means that those options you (and many other people in aikido) like to use to ensure compliance are still things I would avoid. .
What are you studying? Dance. Martial arts involve pain. What in the world purpose would a nikyo serve if there was no pain. It would be real easy to revers the technique or do something else if there is no lock out-i.e., pain. The technique is useless as is sankyo and yonkyo without pain compliance. I've trained in with many styles and at over 40 seminars and have yet to have a wrist lock technique put on me that I did not feel. Apparently, you think O'Sensei was doing it wrong as well because I doubt any of his uchi deshi or soto deshi would contend his technique was pain free.

Since you have such a special way of training that has according to you evolved your aikido above what shihans can handle, why don't you conduct seminars or do DVDs to enlighten those of us who have not got it with the benefit of your instruction? If you have truly found something special, then as a teacher it will cement your legacy to pass it on.
 
Old 10-24-2007, 04:50 PM   #74
Pauliina Lievonen
 
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Quote:
John Riggs wrote: View Post
What in the world purpose would a nikyo serve if there was no pain. It would be real easy to revers the technique or do something else if there is no lock out-i.e., pain. The technique is useless as is sankyo and yonkyo without pain compliance.
I don't want to get involved in the rest of the discussion but the above caught my eye... nikkyo sankyo yonkyo don't have to hurt to be effective. I'm not unusually strong or anything, but my wrists don't happen to be very sensitive - nikkyo still works on me if it's applied correctly, even though it doesn't always hurt. If the lock is done correctly it'll effect my center and I won't be able to stand even though I'm not in pain. And reversely sometimes it really hurts but the pain only serves to piss me off.

kvaak
Pauliina
 
Old 10-24-2007, 05:52 PM   #75
G DiPierro
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Re: Resisting Aikido Shihan

Quote:
Joe Proffitt wrote: View Post
If resisting a shihan is your thing, seek out David Shaner sensei, Ki Society 7th dan. Last year when I saw him, what he refers to as "kaisho" training was on the bill, where he consistently used bigger uke's, none of whom were from Ki Society, to resist his technique with everything they had, techniques that they knew were coming in a teaching scenario at that. Very inspiring!
Almost missed your post. I'll put him on my list of people to seek out. One thing that should also be mentioned is that both of the statements I have publicly made about stopping shihan were in direct response to challenges from students of those shihan who claimed that their teachers allowed people to attack them as hard as they could and try to stop them and that they have never seen anyone succeed at doing so. So all of this stuff about seminars not being the right place for such things apparantly doesn't apply to these two teachers, at least not according to their own senior students.

If I train with someone who makes it clear that he doesn't want people to try to resist him, as Endo did this past weekend, then I have no problem taking compliant ukemi for that teacher. But if you put the claim out there that your teacher lets people try to stop him at seminars if they want to and nobody ever can, then you can't backtrack after the fact and say that seminars are not the right place for testing teachers and trying to stop them. Although the people who made those claims about their teachers are not the ones now making this argument, apparantly those who are have not bothered to notice the circumstances under which my statements about these teachers were made.
 

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