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Old 09-18-2007, 03:07 PM   #51
Neil Mick
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Re: Free Speech is like the Commons

Quote:
John Hogan wrote: View Post
"Free speech" = anything you want to say.
Nope, sorry, this statement is incomplete.

Quote:
wikipedia wrote:
Freedom of speech is the concept of being able to speak freely without censorship. It is often regarded as an integral concept in modern liberal democracies. The right to freedom of speech is guaranteed under international law through numerous human rights instruments, notably under Article 19 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and Article 10 of the European Convention on Human Rights, although implementation remains lacking in many countries. The synonymous term freedom of expression is sometimes preferred, since the right is not confined to verbal speech but is understood to protect any act of seeking, receiving and imparting information or ideas, regardless of the medium used.
And your definition of free speech is wrong on its face. Freedom to "Say anything you want to say," could well be interpreted as the right to yell "fire" in a theatre, whenever the spirit moves.

Quote:
Sorry you don't feel that way. Not surprising, but sorry, nontheless.
I'm beginning to believe that you're incapable of carrying on an adult conversation, free of insult or ad hominem. Come on, John: prove me wrong.
 
Old 09-18-2007, 03:16 PM   #52
David Orange
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Re: 9-11: There are some sick puppies out there

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Well, it's all about propaganda. Get it in the news. Let the news only cover the idea that "great throngs of people are against this war" over and over.
MMmm....how about we just let the election of November, 2006 prove that great throngs of people are against the war? Face it, Mike: America hates George Bush. WE hate being "ruled" by a hateful little daddy's boy idiot.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
 
Old 09-18-2007, 04:55 PM   #53
Mike Sigman
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Re: 9-11: There are some sick puppies out there

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
WE hate being "ruled" by a hateful little daddy's boy idiot.
OK, Gollum.... since it's you. Found your "Precious", yet?
 
Old 09-18-2007, 05:00 PM   #54
Cady Goldfield
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Re: 9-11: There are some sick puppies out there

No, if he were Gollum, he'd have said "We HATES..."
Nevertheless, David is right -- a whooole lot of Americans don't like having a brain-damaged (from 40 years of alcoholism) Alfred E. Neuman incarnate ruling our land, or having his Vice Henchman revel in the plunders of wartime profiteering for his pals at Haliburton, for that matter.
 
Old 09-18-2007, 05:11 PM   #55
Mike Sigman
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Re: 9-11: There are some sick puppies out there

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
a whooole lot of Americans don't like having a brain-damaged (from 40 years of alcoholism)
I'm sorry.... do you have some sort of corroboration that Bush is brain-damaged that would support the assertion?
Quote:
Alfred E. Neuman incarnate ruling our land, or having his Vice Henchman revel in the plunders of wartime profiteering for his pals at Haliburton, for that matter.
Do you have some sort of demonstrably true inside information, Cady, or is this simply the parrottings of the super-tribe you give your allegiance too? Isn't it odd how Clinton gave the same sorts of no-bid contracts to Halliburton during an also non-sanctioned-by-the-UN civil war where we invaded a country... and there wasn't a murmur from your super-tribe? Ah well, tribal allegiances are thicker than water.

Best.

Mike
 
Old 09-18-2007, 05:14 PM   #56
Cady Goldfield
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Re: 9-11: There are some sick puppies out there

I did have access to expert information concerning the brain damage. But that's my little secret.
I note you did not dispute my Alfred E. Neuman reference.
 
Old 09-18-2007, 07:17 PM   #57
Mike Sigman
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Re: 9-11: There are some sick puppies out there

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
I did have access to expert information concerning the brain damage.
About George Bush, whom you indicated had brain damage? I dunno.... there's just a point where I think the personal remarks about someone's looks, their abilities and faculties, etc., tend to go to far into the absurd and insulting. It's safe, for example, to say that "Kerry is a liar" because he had to change some of his assertions in the light of the Swift Boat guys sources and witnesses. But I can't see coming out and saying that Kerry has brain damage, is a child-molester, or whatever. I realize that it's trendy to do the Saturday Night Live style of in-your-face school-boy humour, but there probably needs to be limits, IMO.

Best.

Mike Sigman
 
Old 09-18-2007, 07:46 PM   #58
Cady Goldfield
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Re: 9-11: There are some sick puppies out there

No, brain damage is a physical condition that is what it is. Pointing it out is not the same thing as "outing" someone who chooses his or her behavior, such as being a liar, adulterer or a child abuser.

Brain damage from alcohol affects a person's ability to properly function in a complex job such the presidency, and I'd consider it to be a legitimate concern.
 
Old 09-18-2007, 08:09 PM   #59
Mike Sigman
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Re: 9-11: There are some sick puppies out there

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
Brain damage from alcohol affects a person's ability to properly function in a complex job such the presidency, and I'd consider it to be a legitimate concern.
So you don't really know if Bush has brain damage or to what extent he was, if any, ever an alcoholic? You're using something like "the common liberal rumour mill" for this? This was all conjecture about a person stated as fact?

Mike
 
Old 09-18-2007, 08:12 PM   #60
David Orange
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Re: 9-11: There are some sick puppies out there

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
As I understand it, BTW, we seem to have gone from "there is no bias in the BBC" to "OK, there may be some bias but it's trivial". Sort of like being "only slightly pregnant".
Yeah...as compared to ALL the major US news outlets, parroting Bush's sales pitch with NO real critical consideration. Bush announces that he's keeping troop levels the same until the end of the year, when he might withdraw 5000, then the same until next summer, when he "might" draw it down to where it was before the escalation (IF conditions on the ground permit) and all major US news outlets say "Bush Announces Troop Withdrawals."

Kinda makes the BBC look "fair and balanced."

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
 
Old 09-18-2007, 08:16 PM   #61
David Orange
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Re: 9-11: There are some sick puppies out there

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Like I said when the 9/11 bombing happened... it'll take more than that before many liberals realize that the world is for real and not just theory, peace and love role-playing, etc..
And the alternative is....what are you saying? That we should just pick someone out and attack them for what a bunch of Saudi Arabians did? We attack Iraq?????????

That was stupid as Homer Simpson's monkey, George, wasn't it?

Did Iraq have anything to do with 9/11????

No, they didn't.

So why are we wasting the lives of our best men and grinding our military to the breaking point refereeing a civil war that wouldn't exist if Bush hadn't screwed the pooch?

As I said: it's FUBAR.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
 
Old 09-18-2007, 08:18 PM   #62
David Orange
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Re: 9-11: There are some sick puppies out there

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
OK, Gollum.... since it's you. Found your "Precious", yet?
Oh, yes, Mike...BUSH is my precious, destroyer of men's souls.....

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
 
Old 09-18-2007, 08:37 PM   #63
David Orange
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Re: 9-11: There are some sick puppies out there

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
I'm sorry.... do you have some sort of corroboration that Bush is brain-damaged that would support the assertion?
Eeeehhhhhhh??????

Try "Mission Accomplished," to begin with. Then throw in a little "Bring it on!" then add a little, "is our children being educated," and "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice...we won't be fooled again."

http://valandil87.tripod.com/stupid_bush.jpg

"I promise you I will listen to what has been said here, even though I wasn't here." —at the President's Economic Forum in Waco, Texas, Aug. 13, 2002

"Oh, no, we're not going to have any casualties." —discussing the Iraq war with Christian Coalition founder Pat Robertson, as quoted by Robertson

"I don't know why you're talking about Sweden. They're the neutral one. They don't have an army." —during a Dec. 2002 Oval Office meeting with Rep. Tom Lantos, as reported by the New York Times

"I'm the master of low expectations." —aboard Air Force One, June 4, 2003

"I'm also not very analytical. You know I don't spend a lot of time thinking about myself, about why I do things." —aboard Air Force One, June 4, 2003

"I know what I believe. I will continue to articulate what I believe and what I believe — I believe what I believe is right." —Rome, Italy, July 22, 2001

"We need to counter the shockwave of the evildoer by having individual rate cuts accelerated and by thinking about tax rebates." —Washington, D.C. Oct. 4, 2001

"I wish you'd have given me this written question ahead of time so I could plan for it…I'm sure something will pop into my head here in the midst of this press conference, with all the pressure of trying to come up with answer, but it hadn't yet….I don't want to sound like I have made no mistakes. I'm confident I have. I just haven't — you just put me under the spot here, and maybe I'm not as quick on my feet as I should be in coming up with one." —President George W. Bush, after being asked to name the biggest mistake he had made, Washington, D.C., April 3, 2004

"See, free nations are peaceful nations. Free nations don't attack each other. Free nations don't develop weapons of mass destruction." —Milwaukee, Wis., Oct. 3, 2003

"The most important thing is for us to find Osama bin Laden. It is our number one priority and we will not rest until we find him." —Washington, D.C., Sept. 13, 2001

and seven months later:

"I don't know where bin Laden is. I have no idea and really don't care. It's not that important. It's not our priority." —Washington, D.C., March 13, 2002

"But all in all, it's been a fabulous year for Laura and me." —summing up his first year in office, three months after the 9/11 attacks, Washington, D.C., Dec. 20, 2001

"I try to go for longer runs, but it's tough around here at the White House on the outdoor track. It's sad that I can't run longer. It's one of the saddest things about the presidency." —interview with "Runners World," Aug. 2002

"Major combat operations in Iraq have ended. In the battle of Iraq, the United States and our allies have prevailed." —speaking underneath a "Mission Accomplished" banner aboard the USS Abraham Lincoln, May 1, 2003

And last but not least:

"Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we." —Washington, D.C., Aug. 5, 2004

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Do you have some sort of demonstrably true inside information, Cady, or is this simply the parrottings of the super-tribe you give your allegiance too?
Mike, if it's raining outside, do you refuse to say "It's raining" because some liberal has already said it? When something is simply true, you're likely to find many, many people saying it.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Isn't it odd how Clinton gave the same sorts of no-bid contracts to Halliburton during an also non-sanctioned-by-the-UN civil war where we invaded a country... and there wasn't a murmur from your super-tribe?
And how long did that go on? How many American lives were sacrificed to that cause? Was there a little thing called a reason for that war (a "reason" being something directly involving that particular nation and not because some other nation did something)?

Whole different story.

But again, Bush is a proven idiot. So why bother defending his idiotic bumblings?

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
 
Old 09-18-2007, 08:40 PM   #64
Mike Sigman
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Re: 9-11: There are some sick puppies out there

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Yeah...as compared to ALL the major US news outlets, parroting Bush's sales pitch with NO real critical consideration. Bush announces that he's keeping troop levels the same until the end of the year, when he might withdraw 5000, then the same until next summer, when he "might" draw it down to where it was before the escalation (IF conditions on the ground permit) and all major US news outlets say "Bush Announces Troop Withdrawals."
I know, I know, David. But then it's because Bush is secretly riding around in Black Helicopters with the Jews and taking over the world. It's a strange, strange world you live in.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
 
Old 09-18-2007, 08:42 PM   #65
David Orange
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Re: 9-11: There are some sick puppies out there

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
So you don't really know if Bush has brain damage or to what extent he was, if any, ever an alcoholic?
It's part of Bush's own history and his own party's narrative of him--how he was a flat-out drunk "until he was forty," when Jesus supposedly "changed his heart," and he became a good person, became Governor of Texas, presided mockingly over the executions of about 150 human beings, then became President and started one of the most ill-advised wars in human history.

His own people admit that he was a hard-core drunk until he was forty. He never made a success of any business venture--except that he always got "his" out of it, even as the venture itself went under and everyone else involved took losses. It's the same thing with this war. The soldiers lose, their families lose, your children and mine will pay for it and Bush will live the rest of his life with Secret Service protection. He's good at covering his own tail, but at heavy cost to everyone around him.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
 
Old 09-18-2007, 08:44 PM   #66
David Orange
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Re: 9-11: There are some sick puppies out there

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
I know, I know, David. But then it's because Bush is secretly riding around in Black Helicopters with the Jews and taking over the world. It's a strange, strange world you live in.
I notice you couldn't contradict a word of what I said. So you just log-roll around on that strange Uranus reality, don't you?

Like I said, "Keep coming back!"

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
 
Old 09-18-2007, 08:47 PM   #67
Cady Goldfield
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Re: 9-11: There are some sick puppies out there

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David Orange wrote: View Post
Eeeehhhhhhh??????

Try "Mission Accomplished," to begin with. Then throw in a little "Bring it on!" then add a little, "is our children being educated," and "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice...we won't be fooled again."

http://valandil87.tripod.com/stupid_bush.jpg
Bush's alcoholism isn't a secret, but hey - at least he allegedly quit on his own:
http://alcoholism.about.com/cs/issues/l/aa001106a.htm

Then, there're videos, tapes and quotes aplenty:
http://mindprod.com/politics/bushism....html#DRINKING

Last edited by Cady Goldfield : 09-18-2007 at 08:50 PM.
 
Old 09-18-2007, 08:51 PM   #68
Mike Sigman
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Re: 9-11: There are some sick puppies out there

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Mike Sigman wrote:
So you don't really know if Bush has brain damage or to what extent he was, if any, ever an alcoholic?


It's part of Bush's own history and his own party's narrative of him--how he was a flat-out drunk "until he was forty," when Jesus supposedly "changed his heart," and he became a good person, became Governor of Texas, presided mockingly over the executions of about 150 human beings, then became President and started one of the most ill-advised wars in human history.
You guys are some of the most vicious character assassins I've ever read. Imagine some conservative nut talking about how Hillary is a proven lesbian, yada, yada, yada. See what a fruitcake they'd look like? Not to mention a rather mean, vicious person? Did I say "fruitcake"?

Listen to Bush smear people personally. Listen to you smear people personally. I guess I'd rather go with Bush than you, David. Or the type of people that you'd vote for.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
 
Old 09-18-2007, 09:01 PM   #69
Mike Sigman
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Re: 9-11: There are some sick puppies out there

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
Bush's alcoholism isn't a secret, but hey - at least he allegedly quit on his own:
http://alcoholism.about.com/cs/issues/l/aa001106a.htm

Then, there're videos, tapes and quotes aplenty:
http://mindprod.com/politics/bushism....html#DRINKING
That's pretty good, Cady. A DUI in 1976 becomes the genesis of putting together a group of unflattering episodes and pictures of a guy who is not a glib con-artist.... and calling him an alcoholic. Do you have proof that he is an alcoholic or just these very anti-Bush websites whose access to realism seems limited? Personally, I know people the have known Bush as an acquaintance for years. They say he was a heavy drinker, etc., but he hasn't done any of that for many years. He's apparently in better physical shape than any past president.... and as someone who has done a lot of marathons, etc., in my life I'd say that sort of takes the edge off any belief that he's an out-of-shape lush as you're trying to paint him.

It's a far easier story to believe that Bill Clinton raped Juanita Broadrick, a Democrat volunteer, but no matter how much I believe it, I know that the proof isn't there, so I'd think very little of any conservative boffo that started publicly posting the Clinton is a known rapist. Yet you're doing the equivalent type of no-real-proof offering in a public forum. But you see my problem.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
 
Old 09-19-2007, 12:12 AM   #70
Neil Mick
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hijack alert!

Help, help, this thread has been hijacked!!

Hello? Must everything be about George W. Bush? Let's get back to the thread topic, eh?

Bykofsky: Nutcase, or far-seeing?

Or instead, continue on with the character assassinations.
 
Old 09-19-2007, 03:05 AM   #71
Taliesin
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Re: 9-11: There are some sick puppies out there

There is no charecter assasination - any reputation G Wanker B had for decency , honesty, integrity or honesty has been dead almost as long as someone else's reputation for intellegent debate. (although he'd say this proves I'm anti-American)

But yes getting back to the original thread - It is sick to wish that sort of tragedy on any community
 
Old 09-19-2007, 07:35 AM   #72
Hogan
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Re: Free Speech is like the Commons

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote: View Post
John Hogan wrote: View Post
"Free speech" = anything you want to say.

Neil wrote:
Nope, sorry, this statement is incomplete.

Quote:
wikipedia wrote:
Freedom of speech is the concept of being able to speak freely without censorship. It is often regarded as an integral concept in modern liberal democracies. The right to freedom of speech is guaranteed under international law through numerous human rights instruments, notably under Article 19 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and Article 10 of the European Convention on Human Rights, although implementation remains lacking in many countries. The synonymous term freedom of expression is sometimes preferred, since the right is not confined to verbal speech but is understood to protect any act of seeking, receiving and imparting information or ideas, regardless of the medium used.
And your definition of free speech is wrong on its face. [note - um, your definition, i.e., 'without restrcition', means the samre thing]..Freedom to "Say anything you want to say," could well be interpreted as the right to yell "fire" in a theatre, whenever the spirit moves.
Are you honestly saying that "free speech = anything you want to say" does NOT mean the same as "Freedom of speech is the concept of being able to speak freely without censorship."

Uhhh, hello, it means the SAME THING. Anything you want to say means speaking without censorship. Do you call janitors "sanitation engineers", too??

Which is it? Free speech means without restrictions (or in other words, anything you want), or being restricted? You are saying two different things in your post.

And c'mon, try to respond without accusing me of something... you can do it....
 
Old 09-19-2007, 07:39 AM   #73
Hogan
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Re: 9-11: There are some sick puppies out there

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David Orange wrote: View Post
And the alternative is....what are you saying? That we should just pick someone out and attack them for what a bunch of Saudi Arabians did? We attack Iraq?????????
No, we attacked the Taliban in Afghanistan, the people responsible. Wake up.

Quote:
Did Iraq have anything to do with 9/11????
Who said it did? Bush & Co. never said it did.
 
Old 09-19-2007, 08:48 AM   #74
Mike Sigman
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Re: 9-11: There are some sick puppies out there

Quote:
David Chalk wrote: View Post
There is no charecter assasination - any reputation G Wanker B had for decency , honesty, integrity or honesty has been dead almost as long as someone else's reputation for intellegent debate. (although he'd say this proves I'm anti-American)
This comment is a classic example.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
 
Old 09-19-2007, 09:31 AM   #75
David Orange
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Re: 9-11: There are some sick puppies out there

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
You guys are some of the most vicious character assassins I've ever read.
It's vicious characther assassination if you simply make claims about someone--like Rush and his cronies make claims about Hillary, like YOU make claims about Kerry. For instance, you say "Kerry is a proven liar," it's just a statement, but if I quote Bush's OWN narrative of his OWN life, the narrative his OWN party disseminates about him, backed up by quotes (and Cady posted a list of videos), you say that's "character assassination."

There's far more proof that George WAS an alcoholic and a HEAVY drug abuser for MOST of his adult life than there is "proof" that Kerry is either a "liar" or a "phoney".

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Imagine some conservative nut talking about how Hillary is a proven lesbian, yada, yada, yada. See what a fruitcake they'd look like? Not to mention a rather mean, vicious person? Did I say "fruitcake"?
Yeah. They do. Screwy and vicious....BECAUSE....why? They NEVER cite any kind of proof. They just think Hillary is too forceful and about fifty times as intelligent as they are, so...she MUST be a lesbian. See, that is character assassination and viciousness. But to say that Bush was and apparently still IS a hard-core drunk and apparently seriously brain-damaged is not "character assassination" because you can prove the first by his own statements and those of his party. And you can prove the second by current videos of him addressing groups while obviously drunk.

Cady's link was very interesting:

http://mindprod.com/politics/bushism....html#DRINKING

Scroll down to the bottom and see Bush with scrapes, bruises and cuts on his face. Do you wonder how he got those? Maybe this paragraph explains it:

"Bush likes to hide out in Crawford. He has taken more holidays than any other president in history. He gets into scuffles with the brush he reputedly slashes for recreation. Bush take 3 to 5 days to come out of hiding in an emergency. He is likely bingeing on alcohol and drugs, injuring himself while stumbling around stupefied and takes days to dry out enough for a public experience. "

And do you still believe that he "passed out and fell from choking on a pretzel"? Maybe....after seven or eight shots of bourbon?

The guy was and IS a drunk.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Listen to Bush smear people personally. Listen to you smear people personally. I guess I'd rather go with Bush than you, David.
Well, that's one thing Bush has learned since he was a cheerleader frat boy: you never smear the other guy yourself. You have some behind-the-scenes dirty-tricksters to do it for you, a la Swiftboat Veterans for Truth, Karl Rove and liars of that ilk.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
 

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