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Old 06-29-2007, 08:41 AM   #51
philippe willaume
 
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Re: Ueshibas Aikido not the Best

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James Wilson wrote: View Post
No Marquis of Queensbury, no boxing
.........but Muhhammed Ali would still have boxed his ears off....
well not quite, there would still be Mendoza.

One Ringeck to bring them all and in darkness bind them,
In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.
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Old 06-29-2007, 08:53 AM   #52
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: Ueshibas Aikido not the Best

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Don Magee wrote: View Post
It is the dream of every teacher to make students better then they are. The same is true of parenthood. If O'Sensei was the greatest, and none have reached his level or greater, then it is safe to say he was a poor teacher.
Sometimes in parenting, the qualities that we recognize to be loveable, we see in our grandchildren first, more than our children. This is a generational function that needs to be considered. I feel I am an amazing person and student due to the teachings of my aikido 'grandfather', O'Sensei. It is my wish to communicate at least a part of the whole that I have been taught.

Last edited by jennifer paige smith : 06-29-2007 at 08:56 AM.

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Old 06-29-2007, 09:13 AM   #53
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: Ueshibas Aikido not the Best

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Paul Sanderson-Cimino wrote: View Post
Fair enough. But to clarify, my intent was to mock the outlandish stories of O'sensei, not the man himself.
Please provide the evidence that they didn't happen.

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Old 06-29-2007, 10:45 AM   #54
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Re: Ueshibas Aikido not the Best

James Wilson wrote: View Post
How is Aikidoka commenting on Aikido like a motorcycle expert commenting on a car?

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote: View Post
What's the difference? I think that is precisely Dan's point.

It's like asking a divorce lawyer for advice in a criminal proceeding in which you are facing the death penalty on murder charges. They're all lawyers right? So one lawyer's opinion is as good as the other, right?
No, asking an Aikidoka to comment on aikido is like asking a car expert to look at a car. Asking a Judoka to comment on Aikido is like asking a divorce lawyer to look at a criminal case (both martial artists, but not art specific-or- boh lawyers but not law specific).

What James Wilson is saying is correct.

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Old 06-29-2007, 11:22 AM   #55
Paul Sanderson-Cimino
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Re: Ueshibas Aikido not the Best

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Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
Please provide the evidence that they didn't happen.
The burden of proof is on the proposer of the claim.

I don't mock the stories because I can prove they didn't happen. I mock them because 1) they contradict the current state of knowledge and 2) there is no proof to show they did happen.

I make fun of creationists for the same reason.

If you insist, though, let me phrase it this way: the proof or evidence that they didn't happen is the sum of current knowledge about human capabilities. If I claimed, "I held a ball out from a building once, and it shot straight up into orbit", our current knowledge of physics (which includes gravity) would function as strong evidence against my claim.
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Old 06-29-2007, 02:25 PM   #56
aikidoc
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Re: Ueshibas Aikido not the Best

Better how? In terms of refinement of his movement patterns and looking smooth. I think that is obvious-several of his students are more refined and smooth. Many are more smooth than Tohei was in his early days. However, what many, including my sensei, seem to be in awe of was O'Sensei's ki. He did things that they have spent their lives trying to figure out and some still are working on it.

I do think there are smoother looking aikidoka and some with incredible ki. However, its a moot point since there is no real way of measuring O'Sensei against his students and their ki. I do think he was very powerful and probably scared the crap out of some of his students with his power.
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Old 06-29-2007, 04:57 PM   #57
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Re: Ueshibas Aikido not the Best

I remember going to a river with a friend of mine when I was a kid. The river was huge, and fast. I remember our parents telling us that swimming in it was dangerous. I remember fast currents and treacherous looking rocks. I remember thinking it looked like the kind of stuff people go white water rafting on.

Recently I had the opportunity to revisit the river, with the same friend. We both recounted how fast and awesome the river was on the way there. However when we got there, we were both shocked at how tame and peaceful the river was. It was not only smaller then I remember, but calm.

We both thought that someone must have damned up the river, or it was a drought year. However after asking some locals, we found out that the river to all their recollection had been exactly as it is now. They actually laughed when we said that we remember fast currents.

Moral of the story is: memory of greatness doesn't always make it so.

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Old 06-29-2007, 08:29 PM   #58
Roman Kremianski
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Re: Ueshibas Aikido not the Best

Quote:
Please provide the evidence that they didn't happen.
Doesn't the absence of evidence serve as evidence?

Last edited by Roman Kremianski : 06-29-2007 at 08:39 PM.
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Old 06-29-2007, 08:32 PM   #59
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Re: Ueshibas Aikido not the Best

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James Wilson wrote: View Post
Controversial but...
Who would be willing to say that Ueshiba`s Aikido was not the best theyd seen?
Of course he is not the best. This is so passe, you noob. Everyone in the INT3RW3B knows that my sensei is da best and by association I am da B3ST of da B3ST. By the way, my sensei's hakama is bigger than your sensei's hakama LOL.

Boon

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
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Old 06-29-2007, 08:59 PM   #60
Roman Kremianski
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Re: Ueshibas Aikido not the Best

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By the way, my sensei's hakama is bigger than your sensei's hakama LOL.
The bigger the magic pants, the bigger the power!!

So big in fact, that it "blends" with uke on it's own and trips the bastard up.
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Old 06-29-2007, 11:38 PM   #61
Charles Hill
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Re: Ueshibas Aikido not the Best

Quote:
Paul Sanderson-Cimino wrote: View Post
The burden of proof is on the proposer of the claim.
Hi Paul,

The "proof" is on the videos that we can buy from AikiNews. Reason might lead us to the point that we can think that those deshi pushing on the outstretched bokken are part of some kind of scam or they are not (or perhaps they are victims of a scam.) The interesting point is that most of those guys doing the pushing are alive and make up the core of the "elite" of teachers around the world. Many/most of those posting here are connected in some way to someone who is on video pushing against a bokken held out at an angle by an 80 year old man. A number of posters are members of an organization started by a man who claims to have witnessed Morihei Ueshiba shot at twice by a firing squad. This individual also claims to have seen a man fall UP a flight of stairs due to Ueshiba's kiai.

For someone to dismiss the stories means they likely have to do to the question of their teacher/teacher's teacher being full of dodo. That is an interesting question, in my opinion.

Also, for the thread at large, the question of whether M. Ueshiba was really a teacher (meaning a person who took responsibility for whether his/her students are learning or not)? I have big doubts, but the evidence is all around for everyone to look at.

Charles
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Old 06-30-2007, 09:00 AM   #62
Aiki Liu
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Re: Ueshibas Aikido not the Best

Quote:
Xu Wenfung wrote: View Post
Of course he is not the best. This is so passe, you noob. Everyone in the INT3RW3B knows that my sensei is da best and by association I am da B3ST of da B3ST. By the way, my sensei's hakama is bigger than your sensei's hakama LOL.

Boon
Whats the point of this post? If youre trying to be sarcastic and insinuate that my choice of topic is inappropriate then firstly Id ask what is an appropriate choice of topic for posting on the aikido forum if not asking whether the founder of aikido`s aikido was the best aikido youve ever seen? And secondly Id ask you to be funnier next time.
If youre not trying to be sarcastic then you have issues.
Either way, please try to contribute to the post next time.
PS Neither I or my Sensei wear hakama, Im shodokan....
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Old 06-30-2007, 09:43 AM   #63
Aiki Liu
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Re: Ueshibas Aikido not the Best

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Philippe Willaume wrote: View Post
well not quite, there would still be Mendoza.
Mendoza? Sorry, who is he?
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Old 06-30-2007, 09:45 AM   #64
Aiki Liu
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Re: Ueshibas Aikido not the Best

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post

No, asking an Aikidoka to comment on aikido is like asking a car expert to look at a car. Asking a Judoka to comment on Aikido is like asking a divorce lawyer to look at a criminal case (both martial artists, but not art specific-or- boh lawyers but not law specific).

What James Wilson is saying is correct.
Cheers mate, glad someone understood!
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Old 06-30-2007, 09:49 AM   #65
Aiki Liu
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Re: Ueshibas Aikido not the Best

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Charles Hill wrote: View Post
Hi Paul,

A number of posters are members of an organization started by a man who claims to have witnessed Morihei Ueshiba shot at twice by a firing squad. This individual also claims to have seen a man fall UP a flight of stairs due to Ueshiba's kiai.
For someone to dismiss the stories means they likely have to do to the question of their teacher/teacher's teacher being full of dodo.
Charles
Charles, do you actually believe these stories?
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Old 06-30-2007, 09:59 AM   #66
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: Ueshibas Aikido not the Best

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Roman Kremianski wrote: View Post
Doesn't the absence of evidence serve as evidence?
A good exercise would be to talk to (and train with) the living students of O'Sensei. If you don't believe them and the experiences they express from their lives with O'Sensei, tell them. If you believe them to be dillusional or liars, let em know. If you would like to try out your 'martial arts' on them, let it rip. Do some good scientific investigating, roll up your sleeves, and take it on. Kato Shihan may be a good place to start, he's pretty available.
Seems like this would clear up opinions and ideas. Give you some relative ground to speak from, as it were.
Let me know how it goes.

Until then, call liars liars. Just be sure you know that they are lying, first.

Jennifer Paige Smith
Confluence Aikido Systems
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Old 06-30-2007, 10:07 AM   #67
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: Ueshibas Aikido not the Best

Quote:
James Wilson wrote: View Post
Charles, do you actually believe these stories?
Another question might be," Why wouldn't Charles believe his teacher?".

Thanks for the funny joke, Xu. It kept the thread light.

Jennifer Paige Smith
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Old 06-30-2007, 10:11 AM   #68
Aiki Liu
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Re: Ueshibas Aikido not the Best

Quote:
Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
Another question might be," Why wouldn't Charles believe his teacher?".

Thanks for the funny joke, Xu. It kept the thread light.
If his teacher is telling stories about a man who can dodge bullets and push people up stairs with sounds then the obvious answer is that he shouldnt believe his teacher because he tells fictional stories.
And as for the second comment you are either deliberately trying to antagonise or are easily amused.
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Old 06-30-2007, 10:15 AM   #69
Paul Sanderson-Cimino
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Re: Ueshibas Aikido not the Best

Quote:
Roman Kremianski wrote: View Post
Doesn't the absence of evidence serve as evidence?
Quote:
Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
No.
Actually, I technically agree with Jennifer here. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. If you think about it, the following two statements:

"There's no proof that it DIDN'T happen, so it did."

and

"There's no proof that it did happen, so it didn't."

are of a kind. They are both ex nihilo arguments, arguing something with no good evidence to support it. It is not appropriate to say, "We have not seen any clear evidence of extraterrestrial intelligence, so they don't exist." Rather, we should say, "We have not seen any clear evidence of extraterrestrial intelligence, so we don't know if they exist or not."

It would be wrong of me to say that there is evidence that Ueshiba-sensei did NOT do those things; rather, I can emphatically say, "We have no idea if he did." I can speculate that, "If he did do that, it would contradict a great deal of what we know about the world." Put another way, it becomes a matter of faith.

Quote:
Charles Hill wrote: View Post
The "proof" is on the videos that we can buy from AikiNews.
Okay, then! Here's equal proof that you can knock someone over by yelling at them!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=rm5WtE-2dPg

Those O'sensei videos present a phenomenon; honestly, "They're consciously or unconsciously failing to really push" is no worse a theory than "He's developed the ability to resist hundreds of pounds of force applied at the end of a lever with his arm."

Let me put it another way, related to this thread: have any of O'sensei's martial descendants learned how to do these kinds of "magic-waza"? I know there are stories. However, it's expected (if a little eerie) to exaggerate events in order to match one's grandiose conception of a particular remarkable individual.

If these abilities can be learned, why are they not demonstrated openly today under more scientific conditions? For example, using random testers. Here's the above group performing a more scientific test:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=_1ykNZ7rAcw

(Of course, my hunch is that if ANYONE had these abilities, it was O'sensei. But that's not something I can back up; it's just a hunch.)

Quote:
Charles Hill wrote: View Post
A number of posters are members of an organization started by a man who claims to have witnessed Morihei Ueshiba shot at twice by a firing squad. This individual also claims to have seen a man fall UP a flight of stairs due to Ueshiba's kiai.

For someone to dismiss the stories means they likely have to do to the question of their teacher/teacher's teacher
You make it sound a little harsher perhaps than it needs to be. They might be jesting a bit -- telling "the one that got away" tall tales -- without meaning per se to deceive the listener. Often, great figures are treated more as exemplars than actual humans; arguably, this serves a purpose. You can pump yourself up by thinking, "This is hard, but I hear Musashi swung a sword a million times with one arm once!" or something, and if it works, hey, it works!
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Old 06-30-2007, 10:18 AM   #70
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Re: Ueshibas Aikido not the Best

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
I remember going to a river with a friend of mine when I was a kid. The river was huge, and fast. I remember our parents telling us that swimming in it was dangerous. I remember fast currents and treacherous looking rocks. I remember thinking it looked like the kind of stuff people go white water rafting on.

Recently I had the opportunity to revisit the river, with the same friend. We both recounted how fast and awesome the river was on the way there. However when we got there, we were both shocked at how tame and peaceful the river was. It was not only smaller then I remember, but calm.

We both thought that someone must have damned up the river, or it was a drought year. However after asking some locals, we found out that the river to all their recollection had been exactly as it is now. They actually laughed when we said that we remember fast currents.

Moral of the story is: memory of greatness doesn't always make it so.
Moral of the story, maintain shoshin.

Jennifer Paige Smith
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Old 06-30-2007, 10:19 AM   #71
Paul Sanderson-Cimino
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Re: Ueshibas Aikido not the Best

Actually, since I've already used the Yellow Bamboo recently, here's another example. If seeing something strange is "proof" that something mystical is at work, here's proof you can ki-blast people into breakfalls.

Kiai Master Ryukerin
http://youtube.com/watch?v=gEDaCIDvj6I

There's plenty of footage of this person yelling and gesturing and people flying through the air. There are multiple explanations, but two main categories:
1) He's got magic powers
2) He's doing a show with the help of accomplices

Anyway, the second part (where he actually tries it on a random, non-cooperative subject) suggests that (1) is not the correct explanation.

(Sidenote: I find it REALLY funny that the students in the first part are wearing padded gloves.)

Last edited by Paul Sanderson-Cimino : 06-30-2007 at 10:24 AM.
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Old 06-30-2007, 10:45 AM   #72
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Re: Ueshibas Aikido not the Best

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Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
Yes, easily amused. Where is your center?

Again, the proof is upon you to prove that these things did not or cannot happen. It will take more than a verbal argument with me to achieve that, especially since I have experienced phenomena very similar to the ones outlined in O'Sensei's life.

Have you ever heard of a woman who single-handedly pulled a 2 ton car off of her child after the car has flipped? How does the phenomena of time slowing down to a fraction of usual perception so that you can move in time when faced with a life saving moment fit into your experience? How does that happen, according to you?
Where is my center(sic)???? Well, by definition Id imagine its in the middle of me...
No, the proof is on you. Guns have been fired at many people - they died. Science and medicine are quite clear on that point. If I claim I can turn mud into gold, its up to me to prove it, not everyone else to disprove it.
What phenomena have you experienced that are similar to dodging bullets and pushing people up stairs with a noise?
Those events do not happen. According to me, or according to anyone. They are exaggerated accounts or fiction.
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Old 06-30-2007, 10:52 AM   #73
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Re: Ueshibas Aikido not the Best

To the poster... does his way (do) have a label? I believe his Ai-Ki-do was a way..... ment to be explored... not put into "competition"....which usually states "best/worst"...
it is just a way..(do) a nice path to explore.
I am sure if were alive today he could educate you on real, best and hardcore budo!

Before you drive or steer your vehicle, you must first start the engine, release the brake and find gear!
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Old 06-30-2007, 10:56 AM   #74
Aiki Liu
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Re: Ueshibas Aikido not the Best

Quote:
Mathew McDowell wrote: View Post
To the poster... does his way (do) have a label? I believe his Ai-Ki-do was a way..... ment to be explored... not put into "competition"....which usually states "best/worst"...
it is just a way..(do) a nice path to explore.
I am sure if were alive today he could educate you on real, best and hardcore budo!
Shodokan Aikido. There has to be a best/worst. I chose the style of Aikido because I believed it to be the best (ie suited my purpose for learning it). Id imagine the majority of people here do Aikido because they find it fits "best" for them....I dont think thats competitive, just common sense. "best" "worse" doesnt always indicate competition
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Old 06-30-2007, 11:11 AM   #75
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Re: Ueshibas Aikido not the Best

I should clarify - Jennifer and company are free to believe that O'sensei had magic powers. (There's nothing wrong with personally choosing to believe something without evidence; that's faith, and it can be a very good thing indeed. Though also dangerous.)

I only draw the line when they start claiming that their beliefs are substantiated by evidence, without presenting anything that might qualify as evidence.

"The lights turn on because when I flip the switch, a little purple monster scampers up inside the wall and uses her magic to make the bulb glow."
"That's a pretty interesting idea. Do you have any evidence?"
"Well, DUH. Everytime I flip the switch, the bulb glows! I even put video of it on YouTube, under 'Proof of Tiny Purple Monsters'."
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