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Old 01-27-2007, 09:17 PM   #51
Nick P.
 
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Re: Hypocrisy in Aikido

Your wrong on one major point; the more you post the less I like you. Seriously.

If you would have started this thread with that post, and not backed down when challenged, thereby being the hypocrite you came out swinging against, not to mention the "beating around the bush"-er you so aptly attacked a few posts back, your opinion would carry more weight.

Now, however....

As for your love, I could be less affected by knowing I have it...but that would take some imagination.

I think I am done with this thread, you've obviously won, congrats.

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Old 01-27-2007, 09:23 PM   #52
gdandscompserv
 
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Re: Hypocrisy in Aikido

Drew, you crack me up.
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Old 01-27-2007, 09:23 PM   #53
Ketsan
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Re: Hypocrisy in Aikido

Quote:
Drew Gardner wrote:
God gave us each the human spirit, and those who ignore their perfection must be healed if we as a world society are to achieve true freedom. I'm a utopist, and I have been for 28 years.
Drew
Cool with me, you do realise that, and you'll excuse me here, what you've said isn't likely to promote that? Subtly rephrasing the entire original post to be less confrontational would have helped. I'm talking skillful means here. Confrontation causes resistance, you know this.
Also realise that everyone will be enlightened one day, it's inevitable, so sit back and chill. Yes there's hypocrisy in Aikidoka, there's hypocrisy inside all of us, but it's only temporary.
So chill out, let people be, you can't change them if they don't want to change and if they want to change they don't need your help.
This thread has no real purpose, so leave it.
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Old 01-27-2007, 09:36 PM   #54
Suru
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Smile Re: Hypocrisy in Aikido

Ricky, laughter is the best medicine.

Alex, it's tough love.

"I laugh
I love
I hope
I try

I hurt
I need
I fear
I cry

And I know you do the same things too
So we're really not that different
Me and you"

--Collin Raye

Drew
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Old 01-27-2007, 09:58 PM   #55
gdandscompserv
 
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Re: Hypocrisy in Aikido

Quote:
Drew Gardner wrote:
Ricky, laughter is the best medicine.

Alex, it's tough love.

"I laugh
I love
I hope
I try

I hurt
I need
I fear
I cry

And I know you do the same things too
So we're really not that different
Me and you"

--Collin Raye

Drew
is'nt he the one that wrote "butterfly kisses" as well?
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Old 01-27-2007, 11:38 PM   #56
Lorien Lowe
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Re: Hypocrisy in Aikido

Even some yudansha don't understand what Aikido is.

"Even"? Just what do you think 'yudansha' is supposed to mean?

I'm with Lyle and Mike Haft.
Anyone who claims to understand the mind of god is not only delusional, but dangerous.
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Old 01-28-2007, 01:01 AM   #57
Ellis Amdur
 
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Re: Hypocrisy in Aikido

There's always an appropriate Terry Dobson story. He described one day taking ukemi for Arikawa Sensei - then 6th, later 8th dan. Terry would attack, and Arikawa would punch him in the throat, deck him and then lock him up on the ground. Terry'd tap out, but Arikawa would keep cranking it on, and Terry'd be yelping in pain and tapping and thinking, "That's not aikido. Osensei would be really mad if he saw this." Then he gets up and sees Osensei watching and smiling. The old man says, "Carry on, carry on" and with a big smile, walked out as Arikawa did some other horrible thing to Terry. Some people will just love you to death, won't they?

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Old 01-28-2007, 01:04 AM   #58
raul rodrigo
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Re: Hypocrisy in Aikido

With love like that, who needs enemies?
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Old 01-28-2007, 05:49 AM   #59
Michael Douglas
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Re: Hypocrisy in Aikido

Quote:
Ellis Amdur wrote:
... Then he gets up and sees Osensei watching and smiling. The old man says, "Carry on, carry on" and with a big smile, walked out as Arikawa did some other horrible thing to Terry. Some people will just love you to death, won't they?
That sounds like the 'real' Ueshiba,
Ellis do you have a quick link to more Terry Dobson anecdotes?

Not to derail such a serious and well-thought-out thread (sure)
but who has experience with getting 'used to' being struck in the throat?
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Old 01-28-2007, 07:36 AM   #60
Suru
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Re: Hypocrisy in Aikido

Quote:
Ellis Amdur wrote:
There's always an appropriate Terry Dobson story. He described one day taking ukemi for Arikawa Sensei - then 6th, later 8th dan. Terry would attack, and Arikawa would punch him in the throat, deck him and then lock him up on the ground. Terry'd tap out, but Arikawa would keep cranking it on, and Terry'd be yelping in pain and tapping and thinking, "That's not aikido. Osensei would be really mad if he saw this." Then he gets up and sees Osensei watching and smiling. The old man says, "Carry on, carry on" and with a big smile, walked out as Arikawa did some other horrible thing to Terry. Some people will just love you to death, won't they?
Amdur Sensei,

I'm thrilled with your reply to this thread. I have been glancing through "Aikido Journal" Vol. 22, no. 3 from 1995. Your words in the article, "Towards Simple Morality, or How Come Something so Fine Sometimes Turns so Ugly? Part 2" relate significantly:

"Few people are paralyzed or grossly deformed due to aikido. To the best of my knowledge, pedophiles like Klickstein and Lamont are rare, though who knows? Both these teachers were respected, trusted, and even loved by their students before the truth came out."

I am reminded of the following truth:

"You can fool all the people some of the time, some of the people all the time, but you can't fool all the people all the time."

Drew
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Old 01-28-2007, 07:48 AM   #61
Mike Grant
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Tongue Re: Hypocrisy in Aikido

Quote:
Ellis Amdur wrote:
There's always an appropriate Terry Dobson story. He described one day taking ukemi for Arikawa Sensei - then 6th, later 8th dan. Terry would attack, and Arikawa would punch him in the throat, deck him and then lock him up on the ground. Terry'd tap out, but Arikawa would keep cranking it on, and Terry'd be yelping in pain and tapping and thinking, "That's not aikido. Osensei would be really mad if he saw this." Then he gets up and sees Osensei watching and smiling. The old man says, "Carry on, carry on" and with a big smile, walked out as Arikawa did some other horrible thing to Terry. Some people will just love you to death, won't they?
Ellis, yourself and Terry Dobson are obviously two of the 'sempai' who don't know what you're talking about.

Hell maybe even Ueshiba himself didn't get Drew's message, so how can the rest of us be expected to!
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Old 01-28-2007, 08:16 AM   #62
Lyle Bogin
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Re: Hypocrisy in Aikido

Perhaps if I want to see the true mind of god I need to convert to Drewdiasm.

Funny, I don't look Drewish....
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Old 01-28-2007, 08:30 AM   #63
Suru
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Re: Hypocrisy in Aikido

Quote:
Lyle Bogin wrote:
Perhaps if I want to see the true mind of god I need to convert to Drewdiasm.

Funny, I don't look Drewish....
My search for a Drewish princess continues *sigh*

Drew
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Old 01-28-2007, 09:41 AM   #64
L. Camejo
 
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Re: Hypocrisy in Aikido

What was the point of this thread again?

Drew started off talking about hypocrites in Aikido being poison blah blah blah.

But what is the point that you are trying to make Drew? That hypocrites actually exist in the "divine way" of Aikido, or that you have had a particular set of experiences that has brought you to dislike the effects of hypocrisy in Aikido. I get the sense that somewhere in your initial rambling there is in fact a topic worth discussion, but first.. what is your point??? What was your motivation for the rant to start with?

Ellis: Great story. It's so interesting how the definition of what is "aiki" (even Ueshiba M.'s definition of such) has developed and changed over time and people.

Gambatte.
LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
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Old 01-28-2007, 10:18 AM   #65
Ecosamurai
 
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Re: Hypocrisy in Aikido

Quote:
Michael Douglas wrote:
That sounds like the 'real' Ueshiba,
Ellis do you have a quick link to more Terry Dobson anecdotes?
I'd recommend "It's a lot like dancing" by Terry Dobson, it's a collection of his anecdotes.

Mike

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."
-Martin Luther King Jr
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Old 01-28-2007, 10:22 AM   #66
Ellis Amdur
 
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Re: Hypocrisy in Aikido

Michael - All the links I have to Terryanecdotes are all in my brain. He and I were very close for several years - I lived in the Bond Street Dojo for awhile (I suppose I coujld have been called his deshi, although the initiation rites had a lot more Grateful Dead than Japanese flute music in the background, with occasional explosions of death metal).The nice thing with Terry was there is always an anecdote to fit any occasion or perspective. I could take three points in any argument in this thread and find something Terry said to fit.
Best

Last edited by Ellis Amdur : 01-28-2007 at 10:31 AM.

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Old 01-28-2007, 10:31 AM   #67
DH
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Re: Hypocrisy in Aikido

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote:
Ellis: Great story. It's so interesting how the definition of what is "aiki" (even Ueshiba M.'s definition of such) has developed and changed over time and people.
LC
Or maybe its never changed at all.
One thing is for sure. From Takeda till now? It has not improved one wit. Its been a slow but sure degradation of skill. As its grown...its shrunk!

As for the story. How about what the aikikai did to Draeger when he went and played wthout resisting much? They wrecked his elbow.

As for another of Ellis's great Terry's story-(who was the most fun hiim or you?) I always ask questions.
Why........was Ueshiba laughing?
And just who was he laughing at?
The teacher, for needing such ridiculous antics?
Or Terry for taking it?

Lets try this on for size and see how it plays.
I went to a seminar and watched while Dennis Hooker punched a guy in the throat and kept on long after the guy was screaming for him to let go. Ellis stood by and laughed.

Apologies to Dennis and Ellis...for the example. But just who are we following? And Why? Are abuses and personality disorders really anything new?
Add cooperation in training and all the passive / agressive behavior has room to bloom
Now as for rough housing-I'm all for it. But in my experience It usually sorts things out much more evenly.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 01-28-2007 at 10:43 AM.
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Old 01-28-2007, 10:35 AM   #68
Ellis Amdur
 
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Re: Hypocrisy in Aikido

Hi Dan - re your question(s) there is a very firm axiom in Japanese culture - adults don't get involved in children's quarrels - they are left to work it out themselves.

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Old 01-28-2007, 10:45 AM   #69
DH
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Re: Hypocrisy in Aikido

Hey you
Which leads me to wonder what would have happened with and too Terry had he opted to deck the guy.
Just who, would have left what, to be sorted out?
And who would be laughing

Dan
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Old 01-28-2007, 11:27 AM   #70
L. Camejo
 
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Re: Hypocrisy in Aikido

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Or maybe its ever changed at all.
It depends on where you start. The original Kenjutsu definition and Ueshiba's definition are similar in areas yet quite different in their core aspects.
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
One thing is for sure.
From Takeda till now? It has not improved one wit.
Is it for sure? How does one measure improvement?
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Its been a slow but sure degradation of skill
How does one measure skill in this case?
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
As its grown..its shrunk!
How do you measure growth in this sense?

Not trying to be difficult here. In fact I probably agree totally with you in essence. It's just that I've found that what some see as improvement others may see as degeneration. For example, some may see an increase/development in physical and technical skill as improvement while those who hold Aikido as a non-martial art, placing importance on "spiritual development" and "bringing peace to the world" may see this as a hindrance in obtaining "true spiritual creaminess".
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
As for the story. I always ask questions.
Why........was Ueshiba laughing?
And just who was he laughing at?
The teacher for needing such ridiculous technique?
Or Terry for taking it?
Dan
Always good to ask questions. It is the path to answers and hopefully truth imho.

Gambatte.
LC

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Old 01-28-2007, 11:32 AM   #71
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Re: Hypocrisy in Aikido

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Now as for rough housing-I'm all for it. But in my experience It usually sorts things out much more evenly.
Dan
Amen to that. Sorting things out "on the mat" as my Judo sensei says, clears up a lot of issues and misconceptions quite clearly and leaves little room for hypocrisy and passive/aggressive behaviour imho.

LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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Old 01-28-2007, 01:52 PM   #72
Mark Freeman
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Re: Hypocrisy in Aikido

Quote:
Drew Gardner wrote:
I want love to win peace of mind for everyone.
Sorry Drew, IMHO you do not hve the power to do this, everyone has to find their own way to peace of mind.
Quote:
We all have this dream, even if it's buried in the deep recesses of our unconscious.
There is no way of knowing this, this is subjective.

Quote:
God gave us each the human spirit,
this is also subjective, God is not an objective thruth, until an objective way has been found of confirming the fact. It could be a very long time coming.

Quote:
I'm a utopist, and I have been for 28 years.
is that where you reside at the moment Drew?

Quote:
"...No more turning away from the weak and the weary...just a world that we all must share, it's not enough that we stand and stare. Is it only a dream that there'll be no more turning away?"

"...Hey you, don't help them to bury the light. Don't give in without a fight..."

"...The myriad small creatures trying to tie us to the ground, to a life consumed by slow decay..."

--Pink Floyd
Thanks for the Floyd quote, don't often see them in print on aikiweb, one of my favourite bands

regards,

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 01-30-2007, 02:13 PM   #73
Cyrijl
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Re: Hypocrisy in Aikido

drew,
i don't like you and i don't need a reason. you can't stop me from immensely disliking you and looking down on you.

melior est canis vivus leone mortuo
Bog svsami!!!
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Old 01-30-2007, 09:18 PM   #74
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Hypocrisy in Aikido

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Hey you
Which leads me to wonder what would have happened with and too Terry had he opted to deck the guy.
Just who, would have left what, to be sorted out?
And who would be laughing

Dan
Bruce Bookman Sensei once told me about his first class at Hombu Dojo... the Nidai Doshu was lecturing, "Aikido is like a flower; you need to nurture it and it will grow..." all very spiritual.... Bruce was very excited to be at the "homeland" so to speak. Then everyone bowed to each other and Bruce's Japanese partner turned to him and, as Bruce described it, "tried to kill him".

Bruce said he noticed an interesting thing... every time he started getting the best of the Japanese fellow he was training with, Doshu was right there going, "Now boys, boys, calm down." but whenever Bruce was getting thrashed, Doshu always seemed to be on the other end of the mat.

Peace and love is just fine but you better be able to hold your own on the mat.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
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Old 01-30-2007, 10:46 PM   #75
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Re: Hypocrisy in Aikido

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:
Bruce was very excited to be at the "homeland" so to speak. Then everyone bowed to each other and Bruce's Japanese partner turned to him and, as Bruce described it, "tried to kill him".

Peace and love is just fine but you better be able to hold your own on the mat.
i know the feeling.
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