Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Open Discussions

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 07-16-2006, 03:57 PM   #51
Adam Alexander
Dojo: none currently
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 499
United_States
Offline
Re: Dan and Mike's Thread

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:
Look guys... this type of exchange serves no useful purpose. On an Aikido Forum, it's about the Aikido.
I read a little of the start of this. I also read a little of it here.

I think it's very usefel. After I burned a lot of time on these petty arguments, there was moments of clarity--freedom from anger. At those moments, I could see what was happening to me--What I was losing.

It actually changed my life. I was more brought into the fold of aiki-mentality? Recognizing what "mental-Aikido" is, maybe. Or, recognizing that there's a right and wrong technique in words as in physical techniques?

So, I figure it might be useful for them in that way.

Second, it's useful because I can drop in and be reminded of what a jack-a** I was. LOL.

Last edited by Adam Alexander : 07-16-2006 at 04:04 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2006, 04:12 PM   #52
Adam Alexander
Dojo: none currently
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 499
United_States
Offline
Re: Dan and Mike's Thread

Quote:
Jean de Rochefort wrote:
It actually changed my life. I was more brought into the fold of aiki-mentality? Recognizing what "mental-Aikido" is, maybe. Or, recognizing that there's a right and wrong technique in words as in physical techniques?
BTW: I don't claim to be perfect or consistent in the application of these ideas
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2006, 04:18 PM   #53
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Dan and Mike's Thread

Quote:
Jean de Rochefort wrote:
It actually changed my life. I was more brought into the fold of aiki-mentality?

So, I figure it might be useful for them in that way.

Second, it's useful because I can drop in and be reminded of what a jack-a** I was. LOL.
Heh. I have to admit that that may have been one of the funnier statements I've read on an Aikido forum. I assume it's your "aiki-mentality" that forces you to imply other people are "jack-a**'es". Really a good one. "Aiki-Speak" at its truest.

Anyone noticed how much trivialization has been attempted in this thread? Or how much explicative, direct knowledge of "ki" and "one point", etc., was actually contributed by Aikido experts in the lead-in conversations?

One of the interesting things I was mulling over on my trip back from the mountains a little bit ago was the idea that "How to do Ki things" is something that a number of *western* Aikido experts are making out to be "how is this useful in Aikido and you need to prove it". An interesting approach to the discussion of something that's supposedly a cornerstone of Aikido. I decided that the reason this is so intriguing to me was that when I got a whiff of it from a Japanese Aikidoist many years ago, I could see the value and I started chasing it down. What I'm watching with interest is people whose approach is quite different from chasing it down.

It's that curiosity and desire I experienced compared to casual dismissal by *some* Aikidoists; not all.... bear in mind that there are a few Aikido players on this forum and other places that do have some good and demonstrable skills that I respect. And I've seen them just shrug off the trivializers crowd, but the mentality of the trivializers constantly draws my attention. What intrigues me is the size (within the western Aikido community) of the dismissive crowd who would like to trivialize the topic. The one question I keep probing at is the logic behind the dismissive segment... and I keep trying to get people like Chuck Gordon to explain it to me logically instead of trying to piddle on threads that contain the question. No emotion attached... just keen clinical interest in the thought processes involved.

Just thinking out loud.

Mike Sigman
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2006, 05:35 PM   #54
Adam Alexander
Dojo: none currently
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 499
United_States
Offline
Re: Dan and Mike's Thread

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
I assume it's your "aiki-mentality" that forces you to imply other people are "jack-a**'es".
It depends on your perspective, I suppose. Tohei totally rips into people at times with little snips (i.e, Ki in Daily Life he calls U.S. soldiers weak for dying in the "death" marches. The French Aikido's founder [I can't remember his name. I think the style is Yoseikan] talked smack about Tohei in regard to recognizing that internal troubles would cause issues for Tohei in Aikikai by saying "I saw it coming, I guess you could say my Ki was stronger. There's hundreds of them.)

I think aiki-mentality would be more along the line of trivializers who recognize there's nothing you can do. Like when I say something stupid and the seniors don't respond.

I guess your Ki isn't very strong...since you responded.

LMAO!! I'm just messing with you. Don't get your panties in a bunch.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2006, 05:41 PM   #55
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Dan and Mike's Thread

Quote:
Jean de Rochefort wrote:
It depends on your perspective, I suppose. Tohei totally rips into people at times...
Even better!!! Compare yourself to Tohei as an excuse!!! Heh.

Mike
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2006, 06:49 PM   #56
Adam Alexander
Dojo: none currently
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 499
United_States
Offline
Re: Dan and Mike's Thread

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Even better!!! Compare yourself to Tohei as an excuse!!! Heh.

Mike
LMAO! You're a nut-case. I'll compare myself to an apple or box if I want to exemplify straight and round lines...not as an excuse...only to help you understand.

Hahaha.

I can't play anymore. I've reached the obnoxious boundaries of my aiki-mentality.

Hugs and kisses from a fellow jack-a**. LOL.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2006, 06:56 PM   #57
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Dan and Mike's Thread

Quote:
Jean de Rochefort wrote:
LMAO! You're a nut-case. I'll compare myself to an apple or box if I want to exemplify straight and round lines...not as an excuse...only to help you understand.

Hahaha.

I can't play anymore. I've reached the obnoxious boundaries of my aiki-mentality.
Oh, I dunno. I think the venom portrays a lot of what is behind much of the "aiki-mentality" and "aiki-speak". Most of the experienced Aikidoists know that most of the outside martial community and a LOT of the Aikido community realize there is a great deal of passive-aggressive behaviour behind much of the "aiki-mentality" facade. I think you've done a pretty good job of displaying it, Jean. Don't sell yourself short.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2006, 04:52 AM   #58
Ian Thake
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 18
Scotland
Offline
Going back to an earlier post...

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
(1) If someone legitimately talks (as opposed to some of the pretentious BS that always floats around) about "breathing to the one point", they mean "breathe to the seika-no-tanden". In the start of this "breathing to the navel" or "condensing the breath/ki to the navel", the practical matter is learning to condense the breath pressure at the lower abdomen area. After some months of practice doing this, a pressure area develops there....
Seems a fairly clear assertion, does anyone have an opinion on whether this is - or isn't - what happens?

(Feel free to stick this in the One Point thread btw)

Last edited by Ian Thake : 07-17-2006 at 05:06 AM. Reason: reference to existing thread added
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2006, 08:07 AM   #59
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Going back to an earlier post...

Quote:
Ian Thake wrote:
Seems a fairly clear assertion, does anyone have an opinion on whether this is - or isn't - what happens?
The problem with this sort of discussion is that there should be a *number* of Aikido teachers who just casually agree "Yeah, that's a general description of it, alright", and then the conversation should move forward with perhaps someone else mentioning his preferred method of concentrating the breath at the tanden/hara. It's a very basic discussion. But since the number of people who can describe how to do this is fairly limited (although I am quite well aware that there are a number of people reading the thread that know how to do this thing, but who aren't commenting), it leaves some people free to take partial umbrage that there is something being discussed which they don't know about. Is it better to use "Aiki Speak" and simply not discuss these core concepts in order to not offend anyone????

I think I posted a website previously that mentioned Misogi and "concentrating the breath at the navel". "Breath" can by synonymous with "Ki". Part of the problem with the very generic word "Ki" is that often "what kind of ki" becomes a question. Is it air, pressure, fascia-'tension', electro-magnetic/nerve responses, etc. In the general case, the most probable usage is a buildup of pressure in the lower abdomen, bounded by the diaphragm, the abdominal walls and spine, and by clinching the perineum/anus area (this is the same thing, for the same purpose, as a yogic "lock").

FWIW

Mike
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2006, 01:12 PM   #60
Ian Thake
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 18
Scotland
Offline
Re: Going back to an earlier post...

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
The problem with this sort of discussion is that there should be a *number* of Aikido teachers who just casually agree "Yeah, that's a general description of it, alright", and then the conversation should move forward...
Sorry, I meant to say: does anyone except Mike Sigman have an opinion on whether this is - or isn't - what happens?

Last edited by Ian Thake : 07-17-2006 at 01:13 PM. Reason: typo
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2006, 01:47 PM   #61
Alfonso
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 346
Offline
Re: Dan and Mike's Thread

well if it makes you feel better, I do and I didn't start feeling a pressure area in that abdominal region , a sort of hard knot, and sometimes a quite intense heat too, until years into my regular aikido practice. But then again I've not had specific instruction on this and i've been stumbling around these topics for quite a while (I don't want to be fumbling forever either) What/how/where and when this is useful, I have very little idea, I'm trying to find out more.

Alfonso Adriasola
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2006, 04:45 PM   #62
Adam Alexander
Dojo: none currently
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 499
United_States
Offline
Re: Dan and Mike's Thread

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Oh, I dunno. I think the venom portrays a lot of what is behind much of the "aiki-mentality" and "aiki-speak". Most of the experienced Aikidoists know that most of the outside martial community and a LOT of the Aikido community realize there is a great deal of passive-aggressive behaviour behind much of the "aiki-mentality" facade. I think you've done a pretty good job of displaying it, Jean. Don't sell yourself short.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
No kidding. I dunno either. But I do know what passive-aggressive looks like. At no time does it look like screwing with someone in such a direct way as I usually take (as on this occasion).

Don't confuse wit with passive-aggression.

My experience concurs with your's, there seems to be more fakers in the liberal/artsy/granola-eating/peace-loving types. It's like the new VW commercials where they're driving around and everyone has a blow-horn...but they're sooo superior they don't need their's. The peace-knicks need to "prove" how superior they are the same as the buyer of a VW...because they're denying what they are. Unfortunately, they're so busy trying to prove it, they don't see that they're the opposite in their behavior...Nor, because they're too busy, do they see the real reason they believe what they claim to.

However, I've found that when I behave in a likable way, most of the passive-aggressive stuff disappears. Be a good boy and it'll stop.

It's all Aikido.

Last edited by Adam Alexander : 07-17-2006 at 04:56 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2006, 05:29 PM   #63
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Dan and Mike's Thread

Quote:
Jean de Rochefort wrote:
However, I've found that when I behave in a likable way, most of the passive-aggressive stuff disappears. Be a good boy and it'll stop.

It's all Aikido.
I see. You're only passive-aggressive if the other guy is a bad boy. It's not even your fault or responsibility, even. This is perfect "Aiki-Speak", in my opinion, Jean, and you have done much to make the case.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2006, 05:40 PM   #64
Adam Alexander
Dojo: none currently
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 499
United_States
Offline
Re: Dan and Mike's Thread

How sorry. Get a life.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2006, 06:37 PM   #65
Neil Mick
Dojo: Aikido of Santa Cruz
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 225
Offline
Re: Dan and Mike's Thread

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
I see. You're only passive-aggressive if the other guy is a bad boy. It's not even your fault or responsibility, even. This is perfect "Aiki-Speak", in my opinion, Jean, and you have done much to make the case.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
Ooh...I guess he showed you...

Quote:
Jean de Rochefort wrote:
How sorry. Get a life.
And now, I guess you showed him! (altho, I think, he DOES have a point, Jean...)

But hey! Don't pass ME that tar-brush: My dogi's plenty tarred enough, as it is...

(someone please, please PM me the Japanese translation to "I don't care who started it: behave!" willya? I'd ask Sensei, but I'm afraid she'd get a little miffed... )

Last edited by Neil Mick : 07-17-2006 at 06:42 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2006, 06:41 PM   #66
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Dan and Mike's Thread

Quote:
Jean de Rochefort wrote:
How sorry. Get a life.
Another Bon Mot! I feel blessed.

Jean..... do you know ANYTHING about the 'one point' or how it applies to Aikido, etc.? Even a vague idea? Wouldn't you like to show that you actually know something of interest to the discussion, instead of just being judgemental about others' character flaws, real or imagined???

Mike
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2006, 08:01 PM   #67
statisticool
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 534
United_States
Offline
Re: Going back to an earlier post...

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
In the general case, the most probable usage is a buildup of pressure in the lower abdomen, bounded by the diaphragm, the abdominal walls and spine, and by clinching the perineum/anus area..
All I've learned is that we can replace ground strength, ground path vector/ whatever, with something like "pressure in the anus area".

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2006, 08:22 PM   #68
johanlook
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 31
Offline
Re: Dan and Mike's Thread

After a few years of hearing it mentioned I decided to practice breathing to the one point area. It probably took me about 6 months before I felt something that is more than just imagination but I do feel something there. Now I'm just trying to work out what to do with it.

In my case I just had to try it out for myself and see if anything happened because my teachers were pretty elusive and/or very esoteric about it. I've often been in dojos where even if self-exploration is not actively discouraged it is neutralized in the sense that student's own doubts are allowed to stop them from progressing in certain areas. If we have teachers or people that we trust telling us to breathe into the one point and it will begin to form over time then we'd probably just do it and trust that it would happen. In time we could experience it for ourselves and those initial doubts would diminish - but if we never push through those initial doubts in the first place then we'll never really know for ourselves.

A lot of things have been glossed over in my own training that I'm going back to now. I remember things that I heard mentioned briefly on a forum like this or elsewhere and think "man, if I just put in a bit of regular practice in that - then I would know either way now". Worst case scenario I waste my time but dispel my confusion. Best case scenario I actually get some new skills.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2006, 09:42 PM   #69
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Going back to an earlier post...

Quote:
Justin Smith wrote:
All I've learned is that we can replace ground strength, ground path vector/ whatever, with something like "pressure in the anus area".
No, one thing augments the other. Ask your teacher to explain it.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2006, 09:49 PM   #70
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Dan and Mike's Thread

Quote:
Johan Look wrote:
In my case I just had to try it out for myself and see if anything happened because my teachers were pretty elusive and/or very esoteric about it. I've often been in dojos where even if self-exploration is not actively discouraged it is neutralized in the sense that student's own doubts are allowed to stop them from progressing in certain areas.
"Actively discouraged" and "neutralized" are pretty accurate. Like the comment to "talk about beer" earlier on.

Of course you need to do more than just "breathe to the dantien". You have to breathe with the idea of strengthening the area inside and out, gently, over a long period of time. But I think that basically you're putting your finger on the problem... many of the "teachers" will actively discourage or neutralize anything that might diminish their stature, etc., since that can be far more important than progressing forward in something they don't know much about. No matter what "nice guys" people are, they tend to protect their turf. None of us is perfect, though.

FWIW

Mike
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2006, 06:14 AM   #71
Steve Mullen
Dojo: White Rose (Sunderland)
Location: Washington
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 270
England
Offline
Re: Dan and Mike's Thread

"None of us is perfect, though" surely you aren't including yourself in that one mike

"No matter your pretence, you are what you are and nothing more." - Kenshiro Abbe Shihan
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2006, 07:59 AM   #72
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Dan and Mike's Thread

Quote:
Steve Mullen wrote:
"None of us is perfect, though" surely you aren't including yourself in that one mike
I don't have any problem including myself in that group at all. One of the ways I've figured many things out over the years is by constantly saying, "So OK, what did I do wrong?" or "What's the facts that can come back to bite me in the butt?". It's the way I work.... *assuming* I am doing something wrong and trying to catch it before it gets out of hand. It's why I never became a martial arts teacher. Not only did I find a lot of things I was doing wrong, I STILL find a lot of things that I'm doing wrong. If there's anything valuable I can tell people, it not's things they can do... it's the things they should avoid doing, because I've already been there.

You?


Mike
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2006, 08:32 AM   #73
Steve Mullen
Dojo: White Rose (Sunderland)
Location: Washington
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 270
England
Offline
Re: Dan and Mike's Thread

Boy you have a real knack for taking all the fun out of a joke.

"No matter your pretence, you are what you are and nothing more." - Kenshiro Abbe Shihan
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2006, 08:39 AM   #74
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Dan and Mike's Thread

Quote:
Steve Mullen wrote:
Boy you have a real knack for taking all the fun out of a joke.
Well, sometimes. I was in a conversation one time with a bunch of Chinese who were martial arts teachers. One of them noted that most real martial artists constantly think like engineers... while commenting that most western martial artists tend to be more like Liberal Arts majors. If there's going to be any progress in the Ki/Kokyu things in Aikido and other Arts (in the West, particularly), the trick will be to convince people to think more critically and clinically about how certain things are done. Many westerners hear an Asian speak with poor English and mangled descriptions and they don't understand that in his own language and terms, the man is more of an engineer than a "Taoist Sage".



Mike
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2006, 08:43 AM   #75
Steve Mullen
Dojo: White Rose (Sunderland)
Location: Washington
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 270
England
Offline
Re: Dan and Mike's Thread

So because you ripped the fun out of a joke you are a real martial artist? hmm i have this handfull of magic beans, and i remember that i read in a book that if i plant them a mighty bean-stalk will grow and i can get a goose that lays golden eggs. *rushes off to get a spade*....... now we wait. Does that make me a real fairytale hero???

Last edited by Steve Mullen : 07-18-2006 at 08:47 AM.

"No matter your pretence, you are what you are and nothing more." - Kenshiro Abbe Shihan
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:40 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2018 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2018 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate