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Old 06-07-2006, 04:27 PM   #551
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

It is hard for me to tell Rob as I came from aikido and internal type training before I started into MMA and BJJ. All that you describe I agree with though, so maybe I take these things for granted, I don't know. I will tell you that I have been destroyed by people that have no understanding of internal concepts, some of them, the better ones seem to figure it out on their own.
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Old 06-07-2006, 04:33 PM   #552
Upyu
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

I agree with you there as well. I think some of the "smarter" competitors figure out bits on their own, and work that advantage to the max.
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Old 06-07-2006, 08:02 PM   #553
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Well, Rob, I don't think it's all that simple that it's simply analogous to a "strength"... I'd have to add that it's more like half strength and half skill. As the skill increases, it goes beyond just a "strength". For instance someone just learning to use some elementary jin/kokyu-power has the advantage just discussed, but as they learn to manipulate forces, release power, etc., the advantages increase. And no, Kevin, I still don't think you understand what we're talking about exactly.

Regards,

Mike
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Old 06-07-2006, 09:02 PM   #554
Upyu
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Mike:
Yup, I agree with you, touching Ark, Sam, or any other accomplished fighter/IMA guy will leave no doubt about that.

But I was referring to the rudimentary stages that I'm at.
Besides which, describing all the "benefits" I've accquired now is

a) too time consuming

b) better to simply find a teacher that can teach the stuff, work it on your own for a bit, and experience the results for yourself

Please excuse the extremely condensed version of the benefits.

That being said, Ark used to go up against peeps from Satoru Sayama's camp (the guy that started Shooto here), and they weren't just "beaten", they found they couldn't "mesh" with him.
IE, it wouldn't even be a fight. ( Simplified version of that : One person ends up in a bad way, while the other person isn't harmed at all)

Here's another cliffnotes version of what I'm driving at:

step 1. Solo training/special training changes the way your body works ->

step 2. Forms, then strengthens your "skills"/"percieved strength" ->

step 3. Which in turn completely changes the way you think, which leads back to step 1.

Eventually the skill/mindset developed from this process gives you a pretty big advantage over those that don't have this skillset.

Understanding of proper Katachi 形(frame) ->
Gives way to creation of Kou 功(foundation) ->
Creates Hou 法(Method). Your body is your technique.
Rinse repeat.

The above should be pretty familiar to anyone that's done IMA for a length of time
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Old 06-07-2006, 11:51 PM   #555
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Mike,

It is like saying I don't understand how to build a rocket to go to the moon. It is one thing to have explict or implicit knowledge and another to have conceptual knowledge. I agree that there are things I don't understand, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to conceptualize what you are talking about. At least give me credit in that area! I am not that dense.
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Old 06-08-2006, 04:36 AM   #556
Mark Freeman
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Robert John wrote:
From the little I've gained, I'd say it presents a sizable advantage, if both fighters are of the same build/weight.

Immediately identifiable results are:
a) moving with extreme efficiency, resulting in apparent increase in stamina. (Actually my stamina sucks, its just that my opponent ends up having to move more than I do. This is rears its ugly head on the ground, where I should be the one with the stamina problems)

b) telegraphing of body movement is extremely reduced. and it's not something you have to "work" on, it just naturally happens because of the nature of how you have to move the body in this stuff

c) you're comfortable on both the ground and standing. same principals apply to both. allows you to free yourself from the confines of technique oriented thinking.

d) your reaction time seems to increase, mainly because of a reduced set of "principals" you have to adhere to. you no longer try and "react" to your opponent, but simply try and "maintain" yourself -> its this beginning flip in thinking that kickstarts the whole "become one with the universe" etc etc that you see in some teachers.

e) strikes are more penetrating, require almost zero windup, and can be thrown from distances that would generally be regarded as almost being impossible to do so. they also have a not so pleasant side-effect of offbalancing your opponent at the moment of impact.

But, to add a pinch of salt to the above, like Kevin said, all the above can be destroyed by someone that is much bigger, stronger/faster than yourself, even with those advantages.
One internal guy that I respect once said, internal skill helps to even the playing field, but if the guy is say, 40 lb heavier than you(and more athletic), then you have to have at least twice his overall skill just to be even with him, and at least 4 times if you want to dominate him.
Good post Robert, thanks.

My teachers teacher was Kenshiro Abbe and was of typical Japanese stature (ie small) but he had no trouble flipping guys of much greater weight than him ( he was the All Japan Judo Champion).
I'm not sure why weight is given so much importance. If resistance is offered weight can be an advantage, if no resistance is offered then weight is insignificant.
You are right though, skill is central, Abbe was obviously many more times skillfull than those he threw

regards,

Mark

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Old 06-08-2006, 11:02 AM   #557
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote:
I'm not sure why weight is given so much importance. If resistance is offered weight can be an advantage, if no resistance is offered then weight is insignificant.
Weight matters greatly unless you have superior skill. Equal weight and much greater weight + advantage, especially in a throwing art but even in a striking art. You could take a hit from Sugar Ray and be functional but one hit from GHeorge Forman and the match is over.

In the old days on Judo they didn't do weight classes but I think that, as judo spread as a sport and became an activity that was done in the schools as part of the general phys ed curriculum, it was more positive an experince for the masses of students to compete against people of related size. That evened the playing field. When it was still thought of as Budo and not sport, people didn't feel the same way. It was more about developing the skill to beat anyone regardless. But only a few exceptional people ever got to that point.

George S. Ledyard
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Old 06-08-2006, 11:33 AM   #558
Mark Freeman
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote:
Weight matters greatly unless you have superior skill. Equal weight and much greater weight + advantage, especially in a throwing art but even in a striking art. You could take a hit from Sugar Ray and be functional but one hit from GHeorge Forman and the match is over.

In the old days on Judo they didn't do weight classes but I think that, as judo spread as a sport and became an activity that was done in the schools as part of the general phys ed curriculum, it was more positive an experince for the masses of students to compete against people of related size. That evened the playing field. When it was still thought of as Budo and not sport, people didn't feel the same way. It was more about developing the skill to beat anyone regardless. But only a few exceptional people ever got to that point.
Hi George,

I agree weight 'can' be an advantage, but only if resistance is offered for the weight to work against. In aikido I don't notice any weight advantage/disadvantage, I'm heavier than my teacher and it doesn't seem to do me any good
I doubt if I could take a hit from SRL, but I might be able to get out of the way

Of course in the grappling and striking fields weight classes are neccessary, but aikido it seems to me does not need this distinction.
Abbe was one of those who practiced Judo as Budo along with Aikido, Karate, Kendo, and bayonet (can't remember the correct nomenclature) and was exeptionally skilled
I'm not up on the current state of the Judo world but does anyone still practice like they used to in 'the old days'?

regards,

Mark

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Old 06-08-2006, 11:52 AM   #559
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote:
Hi George,

I agree weight 'can' be an advantage, but only if resistance is offered for the weight to work against. In aikido I don't notice any weight advantage/disadvantage, I'm heavier than my teacher and it doesn't seem to do me any good
[snippage]

regards,

Mark
I think Joe Svinth summed it up nicely in "Martial Arts: The Real Story." (paraphrasing), "The big strong guy will nearly always win against a smaller weaker opponent in a fair fight. What martial arts does is make it so that it's not a fair fight." This is the phenomenon you're experiencing and I would guarantee you that your teacher finds you harder to throw (if you're offering apropreate resistance) as he would a smaller student of equal skill. We have a 'little' Samoan who trains with us, and the few times that I've really planted him I have always felt that I really accomplished something. I think it's a popular myth in Aikido circles that your size and strength works agianst you.
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Old 06-08-2006, 12:13 PM   #560
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote:
This is the phenomenon you're experiencing and I would guarantee you that your teacher finds you harder to throw (if you're offering apropreate resistance) as he would a smaller student of equal skill.
I can assure you Christian offering my teacher 'appropriate resistance' makes no difference, big or small there is only one ending, If you can make good ukemi you survive
Quote:
I think it's a popular myth in Aikido circles that your size and strength works agianst you.
There are many things that can work for and against you in aikido, speed, awarness, focus, flexibility, strength, weight, intent and commitment to name but a few.

regards,

Mark

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Old 06-08-2006, 12:24 PM   #561
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote:
I can assure you Christian offering my teacher 'appropriate resistance' makes no difference, big or small there is only one ending, If you can make good ukemi you survive


There are many things that can work for and against you in aikido, speed, awarness, focus, flexibility, strength, weight, intent and commitment to name but a few.

regards,

Mark
In judo they have the maxim, "Maximum effect, minimum effort." They also have the understanding that at times the minimum effort required can be very large. Note I wasn't saying that your teacher couldn't throw you, but that you would be harder to throw. Skill can overcome the size/speed advantage, but given oppenents of equal skill, the bigger/stronger/faster one will always be harder. Just ask anyone (un)fortunate to have trained with 'Big Tony' Alvarez or Jon Bluming.
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Old 06-08-2006, 01:05 PM   #562
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

In what I am doing, we don't do weight classes at all. Even in our submission tournaments we host, we don't do weight classes. We do that for the reason that in real life you take what you get! Interestingly the big guys have never won the whole tournament, it is the guy with superior skills that always wins. That is not to say that the big guys don't have an advantage...they have a huge one!

Being a bigger guy myself, it is hard to find bigger guys to train with. It is very easy to replace skill with weight and strength so I think bigger guys have a harder time developing technically.
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Old 06-08-2006, 03:13 PM   #563
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
...It is very easy to replace skill with weight and strength so I think bigger guys have a harder time developing technically.
Good point. Jason DeLucia recently told a new big guy in class that at first his size and strength will be a disadvantage because he's got the habit of relying on them, and he'll have to break that habit to learn good technique. Of course, he then pointed out, once the techniques are mastered the size and strength will be a great advantage.
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Old 06-08-2006, 03:48 PM   #564
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

And of course that means that if someone has some skills and techniques the big guy still doesn't have later on, they will have an advantage that can be telling against the big guy. I often think that the reason Ueshiba, Abe, experts in a lot of other Asian martial arts, etc., don't show the ki/kokyu skills freely to everyone is that it amounts to giving away an advantage.

My 2 cents.

Mike
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Old 06-08-2006, 05:51 PM   #565
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote:
I think Joe Svinth summed it up nicely in "Martial Arts: The Real Story." (paraphrasing), "The big strong guy will nearly always win against a smaller weaker opponent in a fair fight. What martial arts does is make it so that it's not a fair fight." This is the phenomenon you're experiencing and I would guarantee you that your teacher finds you harder to throw (if you're offering apropreate resistance) as he would a smaller student of equal skill. We have a 'little' Samoan who trains with us, and the few times that I've really planted him I have always felt that I really accomplished something. I think it's a popular myth in Aikido circles that your size and strength works agianst you.
I am thinking of someone of the skill level of Angier Sensei or Saotome Sensei... They are not using the type of technique which even engages my strength at all. Therefore it is pretty much not a factor. Angier Sensei's technique is completely relaxed. He is completly relaxed whether I attack him or a person a third my weight attacks him. That is the whole point of "aiki".

I have never maintained that your size and strength works against you. But "aiki" is about running the technique in such a way that it isn't a relevant factor.

George S. Ledyard
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Old 06-08-2006, 06:13 PM   #566
Mark Freeman
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote:
In judo they have the maxim, "Maximum effect, minimum effort." They also have the understanding that at times the minimum effort required can be very large. Note I wasn't saying that your teacher couldn't throw you, but that you would be harder to throw. Skill can overcome the size/speed advantage, but given oppenents of equal skill, the bigger/stronger/faster one will always be harder. Just ask anyone (un)fortunate to have trained with 'Big Tony' Alvarez or Jon Bluming.
Abbe Sensei passed on the maxim - "Minimum effort, maximum eficiency" which my teacher applys to aikido as did Abbe. I will say it again, It is not harder to for my teacher to throw me than someone slightly lighter, some of the grades above me are bigger and stronger, and they suffer the same consequensess as me. And trust me on this, I do not fall over for anyone!

I agree that strength, speed and size are an advantage, when you are competing on those terms, and it interesting to see that you have attributed all three equally to the 'one with the advantage'. What about if you pit size against speed, or speed against strength, or size against strength etc..

Abbe was small, but he had the advantage over the larger, stronger opponents. Coupled with the patchy understanding of the internal/ki aspects that are evident in the aikido world, the concept of total non resistance is another area which may fall into the same category. The more I practice what he teaches, the more I enjoy what I learn.
The philosophy of 'non-contention' is central to aikido practice, this is the core of the minimum effort, maximum efficiency maxim. If you fight strength with strength you are not being maximum efficient. Mental clarity, focus and awareness, along with timing, relaxation and excellent body mechanics, these are the skills that need to be practiced and refined.
The concept of 'fighting' someone for the dominant position via the strength road, leads to the heavier/stronger/faster winner. This is not really what aikido is about. I like watching footage of Shioda Sensei, just a little guy, tossing around all who happened to get in his way

The fighting arena has plenty of students and practitioners some of whom practice some form of aikido.
For me to enter into a contest where one is trying to 'beat' the other, doesn't sit well with what I feel "for me" aikido is.
Don't get me wrong, I am happy for all who practice the fighting arts, good luck to you all, good training.
But if your chosen art emphasises strength, then learning a non-resistant art will be a challenge. Being non resistant has to be trained long enough to be an unconscious competance. This is not easy! The core is the body acting competently, embodying the internal/ki skills that Mike and others have been talking about, without them 'non resistance' is not so apparent or even possible.

The mind must be the place where the technique first takes place. The greater the skill in dealing with the attakers mind, the greater the advantage. Not in some psychological "psyching them out" way, but through dealing directly with the 'attack' itself.
If your aikido practice does not incorporate 'leading the partners mind' then accept that others do..then you may be missing one of the keys to minimum effort maximim efficiency.

At some point I may be of a mind to 'spar' with some of you fighters out there, and I may well find myself deeply humbled by having my backside whipped by some young whippersnapper mma-er.

In the meantime I'll just continue to pactice aikido with people of all sizes, trying to deal with the bigger guys with ever less effort, and the smaller ones with even more care, improving myself as best I can along the way.

Just some post practice, post fluid replacement therapy noodlings,

regards,

Mark

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Old 06-08-2006, 07:39 PM   #567
Upyu
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
And of course that means that if someone has some skills and techniques the big guy still doesn't have later on, they will have an advantage that can be telling against the big guy. I often think that the reason Ueshiba, Abe, experts in a lot of other Asian martial arts, etc., don't show the ki/kokyu skills freely to everyone is that it amounts to giving away an advantage.

My 2 cents.

Mike
Heh, Sagawa pretty much said what you said
"This is physics, not mystical garbage! If some larger gaijin (foreigner) were to understand these skills we would have not chance against them"
Hence the reason they didn't allow foreingers admission to Sagawa's dojo.
The funny thing is, no one really got the essence of Sagawa's teaching. Even Kimura, his top student has a long ways to go.
But lets ignore the fact he already published a book entitled "my journey on obtaining Aiki"
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Old 06-08-2006, 08:18 PM   #568
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Robert John wrote:
Heh, Sagawa pretty much said what you said
"This is physics, not mystical garbage! If some larger gaijin (foreigner) were to understand these skills we would have not chance against them"
Hence the reason they didn't allow foreingers admission to Sagawa's dojo.
The funny thing is, no one really got the essence of Sagawa's teaching. Even Kimura, his top student has a long ways to go.
But lets ignore the fact he already published a book entitled "my journey on obtaining Aiki"
That's a great post, Rob. It's very important that the part about Kimura not be missed, either. My experience is that even if you directly show a lot of people how to do these things, they still won't get them... their preconceptions and their ingrained habits will prevent it.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 06-08-2006, 10:57 PM   #569
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote:
I agree that strength, speed and size are an advantage, when you are competing on those terms, and it interesting to see that you have attributed all three equally to the 'one with the advantage'. What about if you pit size against speed, or speed against strength, or size against strength etc..

[snippage] If you fight strength with strength you are not being maximum efficient. Mental clarity, focus and awareness, along with timing, relaxation and excellent body mechanics, these are the skills that need to be practiced and refined.
The concept of 'fighting' someone for the dominant position via the strength road, leads to the heavier/stronger/faster winner. This is not really what aikido is about. [more snippage]
1) Size and strength often go together, and either one can make a rather unskilled partner/attacker very difficult.

2) Just to be clear, I NEVER said you are fighting strength with strength. I said 'harder' and you read 'more physical effort'. That is not what I said. A large strong oppenent will be more difficult to throw irregardless of what you are relying on to get the job done (speed, timing, strength, trickery, physio-psychological reactions...). In Aikido most people rely on timing and passive connection to accomplish a throw. With a large and/or strong partner, it is more difficult to do the throw correctly, thus it is harder to throw them. A smaller weaker partner is easier to fudge your way through the technique with. It has been my experience that the internal guys rely less on timing and more on internal body structure/dynamics. Again, to paraphrase Toby, "When something doesn't work, do it slower and lighter not faster and harder." I wish I got paid for every time I said to a student, "Doing more of what isn't working, isn't going to work any better."

3) George, I'm not sure if you were disagreeing with me or not, but I think that what you wrote is totally compatible with my earlier point. Both of those people are at a level of skill that they are able to overcome nearly any weight and/or strength advantage that most people can present. I've felt those same effortless *feeling* throws (from Saotome, Don, Takeda Yoshinobu, Kurita Minouru, Ikeda, Toby, Neil...) but that path that got them the internal awareness to be able to pull that stuff off was NOT effortless. They all trained very hard to get to the point where this stuff feels easy. An analogy: I watch a lot of motorcycle racing and the stuff that even the backmarkers of the MotoGP are able to do, is so far past my own level that what they consider a mistake would be my crowning achievement. They are able to do things that are simply impossible for me. Many of them have metal plates and rods to show for their learning process. I think of the really impressive practitioners/teachers the same way. When Saotome makes a mistake, it's still better than what 99% of the people on the mat are even capable of, so it still works. For most of us mere mortals, there is a real and appreciable difference between a small weak uke and a big strong uke. That isn't to say that it can't be overcome, but it's not trivial. Saying that they are the same is a fantasy.
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Old 06-09-2006, 12:28 AM   #570
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote:
1) Size and strength often go together, and either one can make a rather unskilled partner/attacker very difficult.

2) Just to be clear, I NEVER said you are fighting strength with strength. I said 'harder' and you read 'more physical effort'. That is not what I said. A large strong oppenent will be more difficult to throw irregardless of what you are relying on to get the job done (speed, timing, strength, trickery, physio-psychological reactions...). In Aikido most people rely on timing and passive connection to accomplish a throw. With a large and/or strong partner, it is more difficult to do the throw correctly, thus it is harder to throw them. A smaller weaker partner is easier to fudge your way through the technique with. It has been my experience that the internal guys rely less on timing and more on internal body structure/dynamics. Again, to paraphrase Toby, "When something doesn't work, do it slower and lighter not faster and harder." I wish I got paid for every time I said to a student, "Doing more of what isn't working, isn't going to work any better."

3) George, I'm not sure if you were disagreeing with me or not, but I think that what you wrote is totally compatible with my earlier point. Both of those people are at a level of skill that they are able to overcome nearly any weight and/or strength advantage that most people can present. I've felt those same effortless *feeling* throws (from Saotome, Don, Takeda Yoshinobu, Kurita Minouru, Ikeda, Toby, Neil...) but that path that got them the internal awareness to be able to pull that stuff off was NOT effortless. They all trained very hard to get to the point where this stuff feels easy. An analogy: I watch a lot of motorcycle racing and the stuff that even the backmarkers of the MotoGP are able to do, is so far past my own level that what they consider a mistake would be my crowning achievement. They are able to do things that are simply impossible for me. Many of them have metal plates and rods to show for their learning process. I think of the really impressive practitioners/teachers the same way. When Saotome makes a mistake, it's still better than what 99% of the people on the mat are even capable of, so it still works. For most of us mere mortals, there is a real and appreciable difference between a small weak uke and a big strong uke. That isn't to say that it can't be overcome, but it's not trivial. Saying that they are the same is a fantasy.
Based on what I understand you are saying here, we are not in disagreement at all. I have only recently started to understand what these people are doing. I can't do it as well as Angier Sensei or Saotome Sensei but my technique is now working for the same reasons theirs does.

At the seminar I just did in Orlando at Hooker sensei's dojo, I had this great guy named Eric (6' 7" maybe, certainly around 300 lbs., makes me look like a pip squeak) grab two of my fingers with the instruction that he was to take me down with a finger lock. I did this so that the people watching could see that there was simply no possibility whatever of using strength to move him. In fact, when I purposely did it wrong as an example of what not to do, he practically broke them; it was quite unpleasant. But when I moved properly along the lines of what Kuroda Sensei at the Expo would call "whole body movement" I could give the energy he was trying to put into my fingers back to him and apply an ikkyo, all while he was trying quite hard to lock my fingers.

It's not that this was some great feat of ki... I was able to get almost everyone at the seminar except for the newest of newbies to succeed at least a little on doing this with their partners. It's actually easier to get someone to understand how to use aiki this way than it is in a technique in which they have the option of trying to force it. With your fingers grabbed strongly you just can't muscle it and your body and mind understand that immediately. The folks who had the hardest time with it were the folks who just didn't quite believe that they could do it and they would tighten up when they got grabbed and the lock immediately put them on the mat. But most folks got it and we are talking about kyu rank and lower level yudansha folks. All they needed was a detailed description of what they were trying to do; something often lacking when we have seen skills like this done by many Japanese teachers. Angier Sensei has been a great inspiration to me in the way he took what he had been taught by his teacher and organized it and broke it into principle based training. I am trying to do the same thing in my Aikido. It is my hope that, the things it has taken me 30 years to figure out, will only take my students 10 or 15 years to understand.

You are absolutely right that, every one of the high level teachers whose skills we want so desperately to emulate trained VERY hard, very severely. It's as much about mental toughness as it is about physical strength. If being completely relaxed is essential to execution of techniques using aiki, then a completely relaxed mind is a prerequisite for that physical relaxation. As most people know, this isn't that easy to achieve under the controlled conditions of training with your friends and teacher in a dojo where you know no one is actually trying to hurt or kill you. The ability to have this level of equanimity when under real attack is a skill that most of us probably don't have or at least, won't know whether we have until that moment of truth. I am in awe of such people. That's the real reason for the hard training. Not so much that the physical strength is so crucial to the ability to do technique with "aiki" but rather the mental strength is essential. The development of the mental strength produces good physical strength almost as a byproduct I think.

Certainly, I have never met anyone who could really do this stuff who had not trained very hard in both a physical and mental sense. Attempts by some teachers to spare their own students the difficulties of training this way, only do those students a disservice, because they will NEVER figure out any of this tuff training in the nice, user friendly mode that many of them are currently doing. And even if they mange to figure out a few principles, they won't be able to apply them because they won't be able to keep their composure under real stress.

Because of my back and knee injuries, I don't really take ukemi any more. This has made it very difficult to keep my weight under control. I probably always had the tendency to put weight on but it wasn't an issue when I was younger because I trained seven days a week very hard. Now I am in no way in the shape I was years ago. It doesn't impede my ability to do my waza (except getting low enough for a good koshi) because I am not relying on that kind of physicality any more. But there is no way I could have learned to do what I do if I had always been in this shape. I couldn't have trained hard enough.

Last edited by George S. Ledyard : 06-09-2006 at 12:35 AM.

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Old 06-09-2006, 08:24 AM   #571
tedehara
 
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Oops, I should have mentioned that the acupuncture idea is a combination of the "electro-magnetic field" effect and the way the layers of fascia in the body are supposed to be related to each other, the way the layers start and end, including the organs they wrap, etc. Generally speaking. I don't claim any expertise in the "electromagnetic field"/acupuncture part... just a superficial understanding of the relationships. The functional parts about the strengths, training, etc., is more where I'm focused, so allow me some slack on the other parts.

Regards,

Mike
You're not the only one who believed hypnosis involves an interchange of energy. Franz Anton Mesmer (1734-1815) himself believed in animal magnetism.

from Hidden depths pg. 91
Quote:
Robin Waterfield wrote:
For many Romantics the attraction of magnetism was precisely that, as a holistic theory which saw the whole universe as interconnected by the fluid that pervaded it, it ran counter to the kind of scientific theory which splintered the world and forgot the big meaningful picture.
Yet it would be people like James Braid (1795-1860) who would disprove magnetic mesmerism.

from Hidden depths pg. 202
Quote:
Robin Waterfield wrote:
Why was Braid effective where Faria and Bertrand were not? Because he was meticulous, plainly a medical man, not a showman, a lucid writer, sober, cautious and unconcerned with paranormal and exotic phenomena (which he either found no evidence for, or attributed to hyperaesthesia)...he based his views on observation and experiment, rather than on preconceived theories...
You don't need a neolithic theory to gain an understanding of the martial arts. There are other, more functional points of view.

The Science of Super Human Strength Science Channel Documentary
When we are learning something new, many different areas of the brain are stimulated. But as we become more skilled, brain activity is also more focused. Memories are formed that automatically signal the muscles to perform.

"Active thinking tends to take you out of the Zone. So its when you kind of go into almost a zen or hypnotic state and the people describe pretty consistent conditions around what it feels like to be in the Zone. Time seems to slow down. They're not aware of any kind of effort" Kirsten Peterson - Olympic Sports Psychologist

Last edited by tedehara : 06-09-2006 at 08:33 AM.

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Old 06-09-2006, 08:33 AM   #572
Mike Sigman
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
Ted Ehara wrote:
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Oops, I should have mentioned that the acupuncture idea is a combination of the "electro-magnetic field" effect and the way the layers of fascia in the body are supposed to be related to each other, the way the layers start and end, including the organs they wrap, etc. Generally speaking. I don't claim any expertise in the "electromagnetic field"/acupuncture part... just a superficial understanding of the relationships. The functional parts about the strengths, training, etc., is more where I'm focused, so allow me some slack on the other parts.

Regards,

Mike
You're not the only one who believed hypnosis involves an interchange of energy. Franz Anton Mesmer (1734-1815) himself believed in animal magnetism.
Whoa.... where did "hypnotism" get into this? I was talking about a measureable electro-magnetic field effect (and I was discussing anything about putative results, incidentally). I.e., you may be quoting the wrong guy, Ted.
Quote:
You don't need a neolithic theory to gain an understanding of the universe. There are other, more functional points of view.

The Science of Super Human Strength Science Channel Documentary
When we are learning something new, many different areas of the brain are stimulated. But as we become more skilled, brain activity is also more focused. Memories are formed that automatically signal the muscles to perform.

"Active thinking tends to take you out of the Zone. So its when you kind of go into almost a zen or hypnotic state and the people describe pretty consistent conditions around what it feels like to be in the Zone. Time seems to slow down. They're not aware of any kind of effort" Kirsten Peterson - Olympic Sports Psychologist
I'm not sure what any of this has to do with the quotes from me you included in the post, Ted.

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Old 06-09-2006, 10:13 AM   #573
James Young
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

For those who are wondering, there are still some Aikikai teachers who definitely place value on internal power development and breathing exercises. Consider this from Hiroshi Tada-sensei:

"One of the most important parts in practice is controlling of ki by breathing exercises. To improve techniques and refine all of our activities to a higher level. we must first refine our force of life. Your success depends on your level of knowledge and skill in receiving the wisdom and power of the universe....Therefore, to synchronize the "mind, technique and body," mastering of the breathing exercise, which is the essence of training methods researched and experimented in lndia, China and Japan for thousands of years, is an indispensable training....This breathing system is a method that enables us to refine our force of life to a higher plain by receiving the power of the roof of the universe and its wisdom, ki throughout our nerve system. The breathing system is the root of our life."

I just took a couple snips here from the article to emphasize the point, but you can reference the entire article here:

http://www.christiantissier.com/05_a...tilcle_05.html

Although it is likely not exactly the same practice as Mike Sigman and others utilize, when I practiced with Tada-sensei we started every class with his ki no renma exercises before or after the warmups in order to develop this internal power further. Unfortunately as only a beginner in aikido at the time I only understood this only on its surface and only got minimal benefits. However, in particular I agree with Tada-sensei's words at the top of the quote I included, that this practice is important to take our technique and refine our daily activities to a higher level. Of course through just normal practice we can get pretty smooth, fast, effective, etc. with our technique, but as aikidoists if we are truly stiving for that higher level we cannot ignore these aspect of training either.
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Old 06-09-2006, 10:28 AM   #574
Ron Tisdale
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

From the video and stills I've seen of Tada Sensei, he must be truly amazing to train with.

Best,
Ron

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Old 06-09-2006, 10:35 AM   #575
Mike Sigman
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Re: The "Jo Trick" and Similar Exercises

Quote:
James Young wrote:
Although it is likely not exactly the same practice as Mike Sigman and others utilize, when I practiced with Tada-sensei we started every class with his ki no renma exercises before or after the warmups in order to develop this internal power further.
Hi James:

Just to be clear, I've never detailed what breathing methods I use for Ki training. Most of the explicative stuff I've posted has been on force manipulation and I've avoided the exact breathing mechanisms because they're complex, they need clear directions, there's a possible problem for people that over-do them, etc.

What I will say is that the "breathing methods" that encourage someone to do vague things in vague ways are pretty much useless. If you don't know exactly what you're trying to work, how to "acquire" those things to work them, what to look for, etc., you're wasting your time, as a general rule. Usually if someone glowingly enthuses about some "breathing method" or "ki training", etc., I ask them to show me what they can do now because of it that they couldn't do before. If there are no physically demonstrable results, we're kidding ourselves. But there's a lot of that going around.

Regards,

Mike
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