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Old 06-06-2004, 05:27 AM   #26
Jorx
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Re: Systema

Quote:
Mark Jakabcsin wrote:
and earlier
So let's sum this up. A) You admit you haven't seen enough Systema to make up your mind if it is worthwhile. B) You believe your geographic location gives you some sort of advantage in understanding something you haven't experienced enough to understand by your own admission. C) You use geographic location to validate your point but then you claim special knowledge of what is being done here in the west. 'We are falling for marketing tricks'. If you are going to use geography to tell people in the west they can't know about your area then how can you claim knowledge of what goes on outside of your geographic area? How do you know what is being taught if you haven't experienced it yourself, here in the west? If you haven't worked personally with Vlad how can you know what he teaches? Videos? LOL. The videos are an aid at best. Only a fool would make a solid opinion from only videos. Only a fool would think he/she completely understood what is happening in the videos.

I have taken the time to read your posts completely. 15 minutes of my life I will never get back. There are so many errors and fallacies it is amazing. It's obvious you have even less first hand knowledge than you led us to believe. You are entitled to your opinion but those opinions aren't based on anything, hence their value is meaningless.

You aren't far from Moscow, go see Mikhail for yourself, get some first hand experience and present your opinions there. I would say seek your answers there but you haven't asked any questions, merely stated a hollow opinion. You say 'the System hasn't proved itself to you', and it won't when you hide behind a keyboard. In order to find proof you have to make the physical effort. I have.

mark
Oooh... I made someone get angry for a sec...

a) Systema hasn't been presented in a way which would make it automatically valid for me. Russia has quite a strong MMA scene already (and guys like Fedor Emelianenko or Igor Vovchanckyn in the absolute top) It wouldn't be hard to PROVE some of claims they are making simply in the ring.

b) Blah-blah. Sure I haven't worked with Vassiliev and Ryabko. But estonia has a 4 year old Systema group and I know more or less what and how they are doing. (Want to see more of those knife disarms... I still smile about hitting with a baseball cap). And I sure believe that because of very obvious reasons I have more knowledge about Russian background and scene than an average citizen of US.

c) Falling for marketing tricks is a geaographically universal thing And in obvious reasons something from russia is more exotic to you than to me. The design of www.russialmartialart.com is a clear example of this.

Videos - of fighting multiple armed opponents from the ground, of one touch knockouts etc. Fills me (others can be more open minded yes) with scepticism beforehand. Yes I MAY believe that YES MAYBE some toplevel instructors with tons of previous fighting experience (what Vassiliev and Ryabko claim to have) might do some really incredible stuff. But I'm very convinced that for most of the practioners it's just another mystical Self-Defence system filling them with false confidence and a proper athlete could prove them wrong very well.

And with you dear Mark I already see that we could take the short road of:
"Let's put it in the ring!"
"I must prove nothing to you and I don't need to prove anything to me!"
"You're a p*ssy who knows nothing about fighting!"
"You're an ignorant bully who knows nothing about martial and nothing about art!"

I probably have already seen people of your kind and you've probably seen people of mine. Let's both live in the happy world of labeling 'cause unlike for example Mr. Ledyard in this post you even haven't ATTEMPTED to understand what I am saying no matter what I'm saying.
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Old 06-06-2004, 07:57 PM   #27
John Elliott
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Re: Systema

Quote:
a) Systema hasn't been presented in a way which would make it automatically valid for me.
Believe me, nothing is ever presented to me in a manner that requires automatic acceptance. Anyone I've studied under, I've sparred.

Quote:
Russia has quite a strong MMA scene already (and guys like Fedor Emelianenko or Igor Vovchanckyn in the absolute top)
Interesting, isn't it, how their strikes, (especially fedor's in the last Pride) look like something straight out of VV's H2H video? Almost as if this striking technique is a Russian cultural thing...

Quote:
It wouldn't be hard to PROVE some of claims they are making simply in the ring.
They prefer people to come to them. The ones that do almost always want proof, you know.

Quote:
b) Blah-blah. Sure I haven't worked with Vassiliev and Ryabko. But estonia has a 4 year old Systema group and I know more or less what and how they are doing.
Ah... you've almost constantly watched near-experts on the subject, then, (more or less). A formidable foundation to base an opinion on. How many times did you more or less beat them?

Quote:
Videos - of fighting multiple armed opponents from the ground, of one touch knockouts etc.
Where can I get those one touch knockout ones? They sound cool. Fighting mutltiple opponents with or without weapons in the ground is not as easy as it looks on the videos, btw. You find this out when you practice the drills - you get "killed" pretty often, progress is about how long you can survive.

Quote:
But I'm very convinced that for most of the practioners it's just another mystical Self-Defence system filling them with false confidence and a proper athlete could prove them wrong very well.
Mysticism... interesting. Which tape is that?

False confidence? I get beat up way too much for that!

So how long have you been training with Fedor, anyway? That is sooo cool. I would never have thought a Pride MMA fighter like you would frequent an Aikido board.

Last edited by John Elliott : 06-06-2004 at 08:00 PM.
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Old 06-07-2004, 03:04 AM   #28
Jorx
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Re: Systema

Quote:
John Elliott wrote:
Believe me, nothing is ever presented to me in a manner that requires automatic acceptance. Anyone I've studied under, I've sparred.
Very good... keep it up Alive training is good and then you must understand that cooperative reps is not a very highly efficient method of learning nor fighting nor self-defence.

Quote:
John Elliott wrote:
Interesting, isn't it, how their strikes, (especially fedor's in the last Pride) look like something straight out of VV's H2H video? Almost as if this striking technique is a Russian cultural thing...
Ah, so you mean good 'ol western boxing?

Quote:
John Elliott wrote:
Ah... you've almost constantly watched near-experts on the subject, then, (more or less). A formidable foundation to base an opinion on. How many times did you more or less beat them?
A style or system is AS GOOD as the regular practioners. I do not really care weather one or two people who lead their organisation can do really amazing stuff (which I however have doubt in anyway). It's the people who have practiced one year, 3 years, max five years on whom I base my opinions. I have never seen or heard any Systema guys spar with an alive opponent using the same techniques they learn in class. I don't count "two Aikido guys trying to get a headlock on Vassiliev and him always slipping out of their grabs" as sparring.

Quote:
John Elliott wrote:
Where can I get those one touch knockout ones? They sound cool. Fighting mutltiple opponents with or without weapons in the ground is not as easy as it looks on the videos, btw. You find this out when you practice the drills - you get "killed" pretty often, progress is about how long you can survive.
"Beyond the pshysical". I don't think it's easy. I think it's quite impossible. And can you survive 5 seconds or ten it doesn't make much difference.

Quote:
John Elliott wrote:
So how long have you been training with Fedor, anyway? That is sooo cool. I would never have thought a Pride MMA fighter like you would frequent an Aikido board.
Ah, stop it... I sometimes wonder it myself too. And I don't train with Fedor that much nowadays as he is travelling around a lot but still call him sometimes and say like: "Yo Fedja, the armbar that you got on Mark... it was really nice..."

But really... it is the delivery system that matters - if Jason DeLucia does a triangle choke and calls it "snakestyle" and has a toehold picture saying "praying mantis" and hits and kicks people and says it is Aikido and tiger and dragonstyle then guess what... whatever you call it it's the same delivery system that is used by boxing, muay thai, and wrestling and bjj on ground. If systema guys use JKD trapping and Aikido modified throws and kali knifefighting and in sparring still box and clinch then what difference does it make? What use were all the drills and these reps?
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Old 06-07-2004, 03:20 AM   #29
Jorx
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Re: Systema

Here's another systema to you...
http://www.combatexpert.com/NEW%20PR...ing-page-f.htm
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Old 06-07-2004, 05:36 AM   #30
John Elliott
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Re: Systema

Quote:
Very good... keep it up Alive training is good and then you must understand that cooperative reps is not a very highly efficient method of learning nor fighting nor self-defence.
Oh yes, that's what attracted me to systema in the first place. Compared to countless hours of uchi-komi and recipe-style techs, the amount of skill I gained over time using the systema method, as measured in successes sparring with live, resisting opponents my weight or better, was nothing short of breathtaking.

Quote:
Ah, so you mean good 'ol western boxing?
No, I mean spiraling looping punches, hooks with inverted fists, stuff that looks like uraken on 45 degree angles, punches that wrap around the arns that block them and hit the head behind them, with the arm bent to avoid getting the elbow locked... you know, the stuff that created SUCH HUGE BUZZ when he fought Coleman and Minotauro. Not your vanilla jab/cross/hook/uppercut/overhand by any stretch. The mechanics behind the power are different, more rotation from the trunk and wave motions, rather than being thrown from the feet, doesn't have the striker commiting his weight forward like in boxing, which is good in an event where takedowns/throws are allowed, no?

Quote:
Beyond the pshysical".
Now that's odd, you must have a version they don't sell over here, because there's no one-touch knockouts on "Beyond the Physical", and I have both the old version and the new version with extra footage.

May I ask where you got your copy?

Quote:
I think it's quite impossible.
I used to too, until I saw certain individuals in action, and I participated as an attacker. Hands on, remember?

Quote:
And can you survive 5 seconds or ten it doesn't make much difference.
It does in terms of skill at evasion and being able to move while on the ground under pressure. Not to mention philisophically, if you were to offer me a choice between living for 10 seconds or 5 seconds, I know how I'd decide (after delaying the descision as long as possible, of course). We're all living on borrowed time, after all.

Quote:
It's the people who have practiced one year, 3 years, max five years on whom I base my opinions. I have never seen or heard any Systema guys spar with an alive opponent using the same techniques they learn in class.
That's an interesting observation, since as you must know systema is not about techniques per se.

Having said that, I have come across a web site that shows a guy using systema moves from the H2H video series in a sport japanese jujutsu tournament, and catalogues the movements, with the time they occur, in the clip. This site also shows some drills, with such things as (for example) shooting and sprawling, where the outcome is not predetermined (sometimes the shooter wins, sometimes the sprawler wins) and some live sparring with some stirkes, throws and groundwork, all of which look systemaish to me. The students apparently have been doing systema for varying times - from less than a year to 6 (1 guy).

Of course, if I show you this stuff (say the word, and I will), that will only be two of many sattelite schools. One might almost say too little to really mean anything either way, which brings the discussion back to: finding out for yourself. Same as any club - you walk in, you try it, you draw your conclusions for that club. The drunken ex-soldier down the street won't give me as good a SAMBO lesson as the guy fresh out of Dynamo, and in fact there's variability across practitioners in all disciplines, from aikido to zulu stickfighting. I've passed the gaurd of a BJJ blue belt in my time, but I'm not going to ignore the fact that Rickson beat me in an eyeblink in my assessment of BJJ. (Yes, even BJJ never got a free pass from me, even after the UFC).

Thus far, it sounds as if you have entirely the wrong impression of how systema is trained, what is taught, and what the objectives are. It sounds like you have no first-hand experience with anyone who can claim authority. It sounds like you haven't been watching Fedor's Pride escapades as closely as all that either.

And those guys in the link are doing something sort of like systema, in that they are moving, but the pillows on the fists, and the listing of the X number of skills, and the Y number of moves, and the Z number of arts, shows a theoretical underpinnig entirely antithetical to systema's. Plus, I see no knees, elbows, footwork, etc. Launch code sequences and different modes of operation are not part of any systema I know of. I could go on, but really, this seems like a straw man - you build a caricature of what you think we advocate, and attack that.

So really, your understanding of systema on a theoretical level seems to be sorely lacking as well.

You're just not that convincing to me as someone with anything more than an opinion, and not a particularly well-informed one either, on either side of this debate.

It seems to me the best advice one can give anyone interested in any martial art is as follows:

Try the school. Ask if you can test it in some manner. If you like what is being done, give it a couple months so you're comfortable with it (3 - 6 is generally good), and try that stuff on a friend or a classmate from an old school that you had trouble wth before. Did it help? Draw your conclusions.

Better method than relying on internet gossip and videos, IMHO.

And if you think it's too much trouble to go through to find something you want, well, some people are harder workers than others, and some people want different things more than others...

Last edited by John Elliott : 06-07-2004 at 05:46 AM.
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Old 06-07-2004, 11:44 AM   #31
Jorx
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Re: Systema

Quote:
John Elliott wrote:
No, I mean spiraling looping punches, hooks with inverted fists, stuff that looks like uraken on 45 degree angles, punches that wrap around the arns that block them and hit the head behind them, with the arm bent to avoid getting the elbow locked... you know, the stuff that created SUCH HUGE BUZZ when he fought Coleman and Minotauro. Not your vanilla jab/cross/hook/uppercut/overhand by any stretch. The mechanics behind the power are different, more rotation from the trunk and wave motions, rather than being thrown from the feet, doesn't have the striker commiting his weight forward like in boxing, which is good in an event where takedowns/throws are allowed, no?
I will come back to it later as I have a difficult exam coming up and need to study but.
For everyone not seen the Emelianenko vs Coleman match: www.hot.ee/mart1n18 and right click Save Target As on "Fedor".

This was the match's standup part. A jab and then some really wild haymakers which I don't imagine creating a huge buzz. They were done using the same delivery system as boxing uses. And not done very well. This ended up Fedor literally tripping into the takedown and landind in halfguard.

Same kind of punches he used against Nogueira when he just BASHED him from open guard. It was just good submission defence and typical "I am a strong guy"-punching from the same delivery system used by same styles that carry the names "boxing" "muay thai" "kickboxing".
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Old 06-07-2004, 11:50 AM   #32
Jorx
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Re: Systema

Quote:
John Elliott wrote:
Not your vanilla jab/cross/hook/uppercut/overhand by any stretch. The mechanics behind the power are different, more rotation from the trunk and wave motions, rather than being thrown from the feet, doesn't have the striker commiting his weight forward like in boxing, which is good in an event where takedowns/throws are allowed, no?
.
And by watching this part of the fight several times I came to the same conclusion that was so neatly put by the NFL legend and early UFC commentator Jim Brown:
Quote:
Jim Brown wrote:
I did NOT see any discipline in that. I just saw SWINGING.
.
It was just a jab and couple of head-on looping punches which got him falling into that takedown.
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Old 06-07-2004, 11:52 AM   #33
Jorx
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Re: Systema

What created a HUGE BUZZ was maybe the facts that Fedor beated Nog... and properly beated. And the fact that Coleman was submitted for the second time with oh-so-sweet armbar.
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Old 06-07-2004, 01:49 PM   #34
John Elliott
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Re: Systema

Lol

So now your erstwhile mentor has no technique, and the punches within the gaurd were muscle shots, and he was slipping those subs, btw... Well, okay - you said he was the top of Russia. Don't sound like much of a fan to me. I suspect you're playing devil's advocate now...

And Jim Brown? Lol @ Jim Brown, one of the least informed comentators I ever heard.

[edit - as for the clip, Coleman is a good wrestler, but if Fedor hadn't closed, he was at risk for ko. He went for a head hold when he didn't connect, survived to finish, the fight. That's how I see it. But of course now we're arguing chocolate vs vanilla. You can interpret any way you like.]

Last edited by John Elliott : 06-07-2004 at 02:02 PM.
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Old 06-07-2004, 02:35 PM   #35
John Elliott
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Re: Systema

Quote:
It was just good submission defence and typical "I am a strong guy"-punching from the same delivery system used by same styles that carry the names "boxing" "muay thai" "kickboxing".
But with a very Russian flavour... which was my real point in bringing him up.
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Old 06-07-2004, 11:52 PM   #36
Jorx
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Re: Systema

Quote:
John Elliott wrote:
Lol
So now your erstwhile mentor has no technique, and the punches within the gaurd were muscle shots, and he was slipping those subs, btw... Well, okay - you said he was the top of Russia. Don't sound like much of a fan to me. I suspect you're playing devil's advocate now...
The point was never of being / not being Fedors fan and the sub on Coleman was sweet. I haven't said ONE bad word about Fedor. Every shot takes some mucle to shoot. And he is the top of Russia - he beat some of the toplevel guys in Pride.

Quote:
John Elliott wrote:
And Jim Brown? Lol @ Jim Brown, one of the least informed comentators I ever heard.
This was not the point. Everyone knows Jim Brown didn't know jack about fighting. But he made a really good point.

Quote:
John Elliott wrote:
[edit - as for the clip, Coleman is a good wrestler, but if Fedor hadn't closed, he was at risk for ko. He went for a head hold when he didn't connect, survived to finish, the fight. That's how I see it. But of course now we're arguing chocolate vs vanilla. You can interpret any way you like.]
Why do you think Fedor was at risk of KO? I think was at much greater risk of KO when tripping into a takedown after the looping punch. Halfguard is NOT the position you want to be in in a fight. Especially getting kneed right after that. And Fedor is much more standup striking person than Coleman (who's all ground and pound).

BUT that is not the point here either. Point is that these punches had nothing to do with redirecting commited attacks and blending and stuff used in Systema.
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Old 06-08-2004, 05:00 AM   #37
John Elliott
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Re: Systema

Quote:
Point is that these punches had nothing to do with redirecting commited attacks and blending and stuff used in Systema.
There's a bit more to systema than simply that. You must have it confused with some other MA. All ranges, all weapons is the scope of our unarmed work. It's not like all we do is stand there like a matador waiting for a bull. Don't get me wrong, blending etc. is good policy, but that doesn't preclude striking. I find individuals have their own preferences. And you misconstrue - I never said that Fedor was doing systema, I said that the favouring of round punches over straight, and the wrappers on the GnP (you see them in the Goodridge fight as well), remind me of systema, and I hypothesized that perhaps there was a cultural influence at work there. Vov, for example,.also used a lot of hooks standing, and unorthodox wrapping strikes on GnP. Actually, on defense, systema has some definite boxing influences, eg using shoulder to protect against a punch etc.

Look, this can go o forever. How about, we simply refer to my general guideline for evaluating a martial art a couple posts back, and leave it there. After all, if someone has a satisfactory experience first hand in whatever art, who are we to tell them to stop? It's a free country... erm, planet, erm... internet chat forum?
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Old 06-15-2004, 05:08 PM   #38
shihonage
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Re: Systema

I have to agree with several points Jorgen made.

As a former citizen of USSR, all I've ever heard of in this department was SAMBO.
My uncle, who's been a fighting enthusiast/athlete/trainer(in USSR) for most of his life, and studied Judo, boxing, Sambo, TKD, Karate... never heard of SYSTEMA either.

I think the notion of it being a Spetznas system is absurd.
It just is. They wouldn't do such a thing in USSR when they already had the tough, reliable SAMBO.

Also, I would be willing to bet money that SYSTEMA did not in fact exist, say, back in 1917.
This is all marketing hype.
Someone probably came up to Mr. Ryabko and said "Listen, we know how to sell your system in the West, but leave the marketing up to us."
The result was a a bunch of tall tales about it's history and origins.

I think SYSTEMA is something that a selected circle of people came up with.
It was never mainstream until now.
I think it is an art which is not much older than Aikido, if not younger.

As for technical issues, I'm way too low ranked to qualify to judge.
However, on the other hand, there's such a thing as common sense.
Given from what I observed from many Systema videos, I think the two founders of Systema are exceptionally skilled people, but I'm not so sure that this level of skills was successfully transferred to the majority of their students.

IMNSHO, what Vladimir and Michael do is perfectly viable because he is VERY FAST and yet relaxed at the same time.
If you lose the "very fast" part, much of the "magic" that they do will become impractical Tai-Chi hogwash for most people.
Without his combo of speed and relaxation, hitting pressure pressure points and gracefully redirecting and slapping away knife strikes during a chaotic fight will forever remain a theoretical exercise done in slow motion by the students who succeed him.
With all due respect to the potential of Systema, the slow-motion demo that they did on Aiki Expo 2002 (i think) was pretty ridiculous. Let's not even mention the gimmicky military costumes.
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Old 06-16-2004, 09:11 AM   #39
Bronson
 
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Re: Systema

I wonder how people would react to an aikido instructor who was a really nice guy with really great technique who made impressive claims about his history and training that couldn't really be verified?

Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
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Old 06-18-2004, 10:36 AM   #40
Sam
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Re: Systema

Hello,
I used to post here from time to time, but a while ago I changed from aikido to systema after 8 years of aikido training. I was 2nd dan at that time with more than a few years of judo and karate experience to boot. Needless to say I am a very different person to then but I still have a look here from time to time, I have happy memories from my previous martial arts practice.
I don't know what my opinion is worth to you, but I have stayed with Mikhail Ryabko and learned from him. I'm returning there next month.
When I was there, I met a lot of Mikhail's regular students and some people from other parts of Russia and Syberia. I also met and trained with people who happened to be spetznas.
So here are my points:
1. The regular spetznas are not trained in systema. They chose to in some cases now - this is under their own steam. However previously systema was only privy to special ops units. You may find more info on this if you look for it. Indeed sambo and other martial arts are practised by spetznas.
2. The system did evolve but did not originate during the period when it was repressed.
3. Whilst Mikhail and Vladimir are very skillful, I also met a great number of students who were fighteningly capable.
3. These same people trained THE SLOWEST during drills.
4. To Aleksy; do you even know who Mikhail Ryabko is? To Bronson; Mikhail doesn't need to make claims about his history - he is living that life right now. Also - if a person can do something, then they can do it. Then maybe you should take their word for a few things.
Systema has been marketed in the US. Yes, name a martial art in the west that hasn't. At least this time is does what it says on the tin.
5. Jorgen; I don't understand what most of your links have to do with systema. Also, you seem very emotional - maybe its more than just not approving of a training method - has someone upset you? You are certainly too young to be purposely so narrow minded.
5. To Bryan Bateman - if you want to try your hand in systema, please contact me and I can point you in the right direction (I'm UK based too) or we can talk about the upcoming seminar if you like.
6. The problem is that it takes a certain skill to look at the type of videos we have all seen and understand what is happening. That is why its often easier for people who can't see these things to feel it for themselves. That this is happening here seems particularly ironic given that Aikido suffers the same problem to a certain extent. For example Aikido gets a lot of stick from the MMA crowd ( bullshido etc) because they can't understand what they are looking at from any other point of view than a physical wrestling move.
There seems to be a particular friendship developing between Systema and Aikido. I hope this continues in the future.

Last edited by Sam : 06-18-2004 at 10:44 AM.
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Old 06-18-2004, 02:28 PM   #41
John Elliott
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Re: Systema

"IMNSHO, what Vladimir and Michael do is perfectly viable because he is VERY FAST and yet relaxed at the same time."

Now you see, if you knew systema, you would know he isn't fast, yet relaxed, he is fast because he is relaxed. Muscles are no match for waves and whole-body power. It's straightforward physics/biomechanics.

And don't trash TJQ. One of my favourite MMA fighters is TJQ. As is one of my favourite BJJ blackbelts (got it in record time too). They understand relaxed = fast better than you seem to.
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Old 06-18-2004, 02:29 PM   #42
John Elliott
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Re: Systema

Quote:
It's straightforward physics/biomechanics.
Example, what is faster, the tip of a spear when yu stab with it, or the tip of a whip of equal length when you snap it?
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Old 06-18-2004, 06:03 PM   #43
shihonage
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Re: Systema

Quote:
John Elliott wrote:
Now you see, if you knew systema, you would know he isn't fast, yet relaxed, he is fast because he is relaxed. Muscles are no match for waves and whole-body power. It's straightforward physics/biomechanics.
Way to pick on the words, John.

The fact that relaxation allows for greater speed is well-known, and by no means is not a "trade secret" limited to the practitioners of Systema.

This does not have much to do with my statement that you addressed. Perhaps you should try reading it again, this time the entire thing.

Quote:
And don't trash TJQ. One of my favourite MMA fighters is TJQ. As is one of my favourite BJJ blackbelts (got it in record time too). They understand relaxed = fast better than you seem to.
[/quote]

So, because your favorite MMA and BJJ fighters happen to also study Tai Chi it makes it a viable martial art on it's own ?
What if your favorite fighters also play Tennis ? Does that make Tennis a martial art ?

Tai Chi may have been martially effective a long time ago, but it's common knowledge that it's mostly been distilled into health and self-improvement study.
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Old 06-19-2004, 08:07 AM   #44
John Elliott
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Re: Systema

Quote:
Way to pick on the words, John.
I can't look at your face or listen to inflection. Telepathy is not an option...

I look at the rest of your words,

Quote:
Without his combo of speed and relaxation, hitting pressure pressure points and gracefully redirecting and slapping away knife strikes during a chaotic fight will forever remain a theoretical exercise done in slow motion by the students who succeed him.
And it seems rather essential to your point. Rest assured, then, that systema students are aware of the neccesity for speed through relaxation, and actively cultivate it. As for the student's capabilities, I believe Sam has made some comment on this already.


Quote:
The fact that relaxation allows for greater speed is well-known, and by no means is not a "trade secret" limited to the practitioners of Systema.
I'm not sure where you got that implication, since I alluded to at least one other art that understood this.

Quote:
Tai Chi may have been martially effective a long time ago, but it's common knowledge that it's mostly been distilled into health and self-improvement study.
*supresses urge to be sarcastic*

Well, the MMA guy only does TJQ, so I guess perhaps the comon knowledge isn't all that correct. True, most TJQ teaches do 'health aspects' only, but there are some genuine articles around. Bruce Pac (the MMA guy) learned and studied his TJQ in British Columbia. You can talk to him on emptyflower

http://www.emptyflower.com/cgi-bin/y...B.cgi/YaBB.cgi


There's Jimmy? Wu in Toronto, whose guys practice a sort of jacketless wrestling with locks, apparently there's an international league to compete in... Wu is head of the Wu clan in North America, originators of Wu style TJQ.

Tim Cartmell's TJQ is very martial, and he almost immediately started distinguishing himself at the Mundials when he started doing BJJ. He has said that there' a lot of skill crossover between BJJ and TCIMA. As a brown belt he cowrote a book on passing the gaurd and gaurd attacks which was very well received by the BJJ community. He has written 2 books before that that I know of, one on throwing, the other on locking. Ask him about TJQ on his web site. It has clips and a forum.

http://www.shenwu.com/

If you look at Yang, Jwing Ming's school, you'll see that free sparring begins very early in the curriculum

http://www.ymaaschool.com/training/y.../taijiquan.php

etc. etc. etc.
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Old 06-20-2004, 07:22 PM   #45
JasonFDeLucia
 
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Re: Systema

Quote:
Jorgen Matsi wrote:

But really... it is the delivery system that matters - if Jason DeLucia does a triangle choke and calls it "snakestyle" and has a toehold picture saying "praying mantis" and hits and kicks people and says it is Aikido and tiger and dragonstyle then guess what... whatever you call it it's the same delivery system that is used by boxing, muay thai, and wrestling and bjj on ground. If systema guys use JKD trapping and Aikido modified throws and kali knifefighting and in sparring still box and clinch then what difference does it make? What use were all the drills and these reps?
i.e bruce lee came to a conclusion of no way as way .with that conclusion you must keep a system that you start from until the point of improvisation ''takemusu'' always returning to the basic form .the reps ingrain the basics to the point of reflex .so make them simple.to quote musashi ''if any thing is anything then every thing is everything.if your toe hold is the same as your praying mantis kata ,then there is less to have to absorb and retain.smplfi
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Old 06-26-2004, 08:09 PM   #46
JasonFDeLucia
 
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Re: Systema

Quote:
Jorgen Matsi wrote:

But really... it is the delivery system that matters - if Jason DeLucia does a triangle choke and calls it "snakestyle" and has a toehold picture saying "praying mantis" and hits and kicks people and says it is Aikido and tiger and dragonstyle then guess what... whatever you call it it's the same delivery system that is used by boxing, muay thai, and wrestling and bjj on ground. If systema guys use JKD trapping and Aikido modified throws and kali knifefighting and in sparring still box and clinch then what difference does it make? What use were all the drills and these reps?
Aikido Arm Bars and Chokes from Aikido Masters

I did not want to be out of line with administration,so I put the link to the pictures I would like you all to see.That is for those who wondered ,does Aikido have arm bar ,rear choke ,guard position?these are accomplished masters from Japan.Once some one criticized me saying that my fights ended in such a way and so where was the Aikido in what I do.If it were ok with the boss here ,next time I would put the pictures on my post instead.these are things that you get to study in many Japanese aikikai .please enjoy
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Old 06-26-2004, 10:03 PM   #47
akiy
 
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Re: Systema

Hi Jason,

Interesting pictures! Can you please scan in the cover of the book so I can take a look at its title and author?

-- Jun

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Old 06-27-2004, 09:34 AM   #48
Jorx
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Re: Systema

And now were all supposed to be surprised and say that oh my... All the MMA guys do actually AIKIDO!?!

It's the same thing with BJJ vs / is Judo discussion...

Yes there are these and these techniques in BJJ (open guard, omplata locks, sweeps etc) YET this is not JUDO anymore... it's BJJ which uses and evolves these techniques regularily...

So guess what... armbars and full guard is still BJJ... not Aikido... because the majority of the schools does not use these techniques and does not train alive.

If it weren't so then we all could say that oh my, I'm not doing BJJ, I am doing ancient greek wrestling... no I'm doing ancient caveman wrestling. Or that I'm not doing boxing / muay thai / wing tsun I'm doing ancient pancrease or ancient egyptian fighting system.

And a link as well for all of you to check out on the Systema subject of which I will join this "discussion" again later

http://www.mma.tv/TUF/index.cfm?FID=21&a=127&TID=0

(for those who don't get a direct going to the site take from the lefthandside bar the topic "MMA vs Force Training")
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Old 07-03-2004, 06:53 PM   #49
John Elliott
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Re: Systema

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So guess what... armbars and full guard is still BJJ... not Aikido... because the majority of the schools does not use these techniques and does not train alive.
LMAO

Jason Delucia, even though you're an mma pioneer, apparently where you say you get your knowledge doesn't matter, aikido still sucks. Thank you for gracing this thread with your presence, but your opinion just plain doesn't count.

as for the mma.tv thread, unimpressed.

I for one, am still curious as to what Marc Scott was talking about in the LA school. He says he 'stepped outside' of the drill and it fell apart. Well, I know if me and anyone else is doing a drill, any drill, and I step outside of it, that drill will fall apart and something new will result. So I guess if I slug a judoka diring randori, that proves judo sucks...

I also note that his hostility to Ken diminishes with the amount he divorces himself from systema. Funnily enough, unlike Marc Scott, I've actually worked out with Ken, in systema classes. What Scott didn't pick up was that no, PCR is not systema, because it's boiled down specifically for the policeman - a lot of stuff isnot covered. But systema is not just unarmed combat either - it includes gun tactics for those (like Ken) who want to learn them. In fact, Ken's rebuttal refers to an operating system - that's the relationship to systema.

This is what I don't understand about these 'resistance' types who practice any form of grappling: If a guy pushes you, and you are a good grappler, do you push back, or borrow the force and redirect to a lock or throw? Most everyone agrees in theory that yielding is best, it's what separates technique from muscle. So if the guy is a good grappler, a really good grappler, then you should see no sign of resistance. Two guys grunting and struggling without movement means they've stopped thinking for that time. Everyone agrees that's how the top end of grappling fights - all flow, no stop - but nobody seems to think it can actually happen like that...
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Old 07-03-2004, 07:10 PM   #50
akiy
 
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Re: Systema

Hi Jason,

I'm still interested in seeing the cover of the book(s) from which you scanned the images so I can see its author and title (and perhaps its back cover if it has text on it). Can you please post them?

Thanks,

-- Jun

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