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Old 01-19-2006, 04:59 PM   #26
Keith R Lee
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Re: chokes in aikido

Charles,

Just to be clear, I think it's pretty obvious that I am aware of who Parker shihan and Terada shihan are and what they teach. I've taken uke for both of them. I'm not calling them, or their credentials, into question. I'm concerned about the techniques and how they hold up to systems with more advanced choking methods and pedagogy. While it is interesting to see the chokes being applied in a DR/Aiki setting, is it worth the bother when there are more complete choking systems available?

Last edited by Keith R Lee : 01-19-2006 at 05:10 PM.

Keith Lee
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Old 01-19-2006, 05:27 PM   #27
Charlie
 
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Re: chokes in aikido

Keith,

My post wasn't in response to you. It takes me a reeeally long time to type and your post got ahead of mine!!! I only read yours after I had posted mine. I added the bio stuff because a lot of people have no idea who Parker or Terada sensei are.

If I may comment on your remarks...

You stated that even in BJJ and Sambo it is hard to apply a reliable choke...well that is precisely what I have been taught by Parker sensei. It is difficult to apply a choke no matter what the art unless the set up is spot on. And as you stated...that is partly why you study Aikido...

Quote:
Keith Lee wrote:
...In a system (like BJJ or Sambo) that has sophisticated choking methods and systems that are tested against resisting opponents, it becomes clear that chokes are:

A) diffuclt to pull off
B) someone with a modicum of training in grappling can shut down many chokes
C) there are a select few chokes that are "high" percantge, meaning they can be performed against resisting opponents reliably. The chokes I experienced in Aikido were never any of the chokes that are "high" percentage in grappling arts except perhaps for a RNC.

All that is to say, I would rather spend time in Aikido practicing things that I think are its strong points: timing, movement, balance, wrist controls, etc. than practice something that I think is not fully developed. Again, all IMHO...
The choke is a finishing point that without the proper set up is highly unlikely. If you train against any one type of technique it SHOULD be difficult to apply that technique on you. Hence, when you make reference to questioning the effectiveness while 'rolling' with an opponent with or with out a gi is out of context [IMO] because that is precisely what you train to look for and look to reverse. It then becomes a question of who has trained better and/or who is going to make the first mistake.

regards,

Charles Burmeister
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Old 01-19-2006, 09:24 PM   #28
Charlie
 
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Re: chokes in aikido

nice choke David...I missed it in your post the first time. I love those all body stretches!

Charles Burmeister
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Old 01-19-2006, 09:38 PM   #29
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Re: chokes in aikido

If I may, don't forget the real choke is at the bottom of the final throw - just a variation on the rear naked choke. The stretch and the throw are just there to set it up. We have uke tap when on the back being stretched just to make note for nage that all things are in place - not because he/she is being choked out at that point.

David M. Valadez
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Old 01-19-2006, 11:52 PM   #30
Mike Fugate
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Ki Symbol Re: chokes in aikido

Yes, there are chokes in Aikido. Does not mean however that their are chokes in what your being taught as Aikido. When ever you see a techniques in Aikido such as a throw, that isnt the WHOLE things or the end of it. You dont see it alot in demos, but once the Uke is down, that is when the chokes would be applied, or bones/joints severed. I.E...If you were on the street and you threw/took down an assailant, on a hard-real surfcace such as a sidewalk or road they wouldnt get up as fast as on a mat. So then it is there when most of the submission techniques are used, although there are quite a few while standing up too. Just because you may not always see them, doesnt mean they arent there :ki

Last edited by Mike Fugate : 01-20-2006 at 12:06 AM.

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Old 01-20-2006, 06:30 AM   #31
Lee Mulgrew
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Re: chokes in aikido

choke holds are just an extension of moves like kiri-otoshi and certain koshinage moves as well as others. any time that you can move behind the uke they are vulnerable to a choke hold, we practice them often. I know that O'sensei used them as he taught them to Master Andre Noquet (8th Dan) who in turn taught them to his students and so on down the line to us.
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Old 01-20-2006, 08:38 AM   #32
Ron Tisdale
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Re: chokes in aikido

Hi Keith,

I'm not as experienced in grappling these days, and my wrestling days are long over, so I think we better wait for Steven to speak about his experience 'rolling'. I will say though, that:

A) gotta get point a to get to points b, c and d (d being the choke)

B) A is to break uke's balance on the first contact (or even before if you can set it up)

C) If I was in a contest with you and we were wearing dogi, and I was able to get the choke on, do you think you could escape from the position Steven was in?

In other words, many people have a problem with aikido as a delivery system. So it's not the choke you are questioning, but the ability to deliver it? Just to clear up my understanding.

Under optimal circumstances, sure, I think the hypothetical technique I described (or a close variation) could work. Outside of a dojo I would shorten everything I could, otpting for body changes rather than pivots where-ever possible and striking rather than allowing uke to block where ever I could. If possible, rather than pivoting on the strike from an attacker, I would enter. But that would require good timing / not as competant an attacker (to pull it off).

The last thing is, I have never made the case (and will not now) that aikido (or Daito ryu) is the optimum art to study as a delivery system for chokes (or anything else) in a MMA environment. But for plenty of other situations, I have sufficient confidence in aikido regarding applying the chokes described.

Best,
Ron

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Old 01-20-2006, 11:52 AM   #33
Steven
 
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Re: chokes in aikido

Hey ... I resemble that uke ... LOL!



Quote:
Charles Burmeister wrote:
Here is some more of Parker Shihan in a choking mood!

http://myaa.info/media/Parker_Embu_Ikkajo.wmv

That was during the Yoshinkan all Japan Enbu Taikai.

Parker Shihan is the senior student of Kiyoyuki Terada Hanshi. Besides Gozo Shioda sensei, Terada sensei is the only other Yoshinkan instructor to have studied with Osensei...and his Aikido reflects that early connection with the Daito Ryu/Aikibudo days. Enough so that you can see a difference between Yoshinkan Honbu techniques and Terada honbu techniques.

Subsequently, both Terada sensei and Parker sensei teach chokes [and not just the energy print that Dave and Ron are talking about!!!

Charlie
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Old 01-30-2006, 03:26 PM   #34
Ethan Weisgard
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Re: chokes in aikido

Charles,

Great clip of Parker Shihan!

This is off topic, but I have a question. I would like to know about the techniques that are shown where Parker Shihan initiates (or leads out his uke) with his tegatana. Is this a traditional form in Yoshinkan Aikido? My teacher, Morihiro Saito Sensei, made a point of this initiating form when doing shomen uchi techniques. He said that the kihon form called for nage to initiate, in just the way Parker Shihan is shown doing. Saito Sensei would call the techniques done where uke attacks with a downward shomen uchi as being ki no nagare.

Back on topic: We trained chokes under Saito Sensei quite a bit, in the henka waza of for instance Irimi Nage, Ikkyo, Kaiten Nage, and in different Kokyu Nage forms.

In Aiki,

Ethan Weisgard
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Old 01-30-2006, 04:06 PM   #35
Edwin Neal
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Re: chokes in aikido

i too have had the honor of practicing and being uke for shihans parker and terada, and i have seen photos of Osensei performing chokes so yes there are chokes in aikido... some "styles" (hate that term) do not however teach them... and they can be diffucult to "get" but i think the aikido set up helps you flow into a choke smoothly with out giving it away to uke...

Edwin Neal


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Old 01-30-2006, 04:44 PM   #36
Charlie
 
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Re: chokes in aikido

Ethan, I thank you for the kind remarks. I wish I could say that I did more than snip and cut footage that was shot by someone else, but alas, that is all I did!

Quote:
Ethan Weisgard wrote:
This is off topic, but I have a question. I would like to know about the techniques that are shown where Parker Shihan initiates (or leads out his uke) with his tegatana. Is this a traditional form in Yoshinkan Aikido…
As to your question, Yoshinkan Aikido teaches Shomen-uchi Ikkajo kihon techniques in an omote and ura fashion [specifically labeled Shomen-uchi Ikkajo Osae ichi and ni respectfully]. In the first form [Ikkajo ichi/omote], Sh'te/Tori always initiates the movement. When Parker Sensei teaches he always makes it a point to bring this out and in fact comments that there are attacks found in [Yoshinkan] Aikido!

The way Parker sensei teaches this technique is slightly different than the way Yoshinkan Honbu dojo presents it. Parker sensei teaches it the way that his instructor Kiyoyuki Terada sensei teaches it. That is: the movement is presented as a rising attack from a basic kamae stance aimed at Uke's face [causing uke to then attempt to block the movement]. Yoshinkan Honbu dojo's movement is a more familiar overhead shomen strike aimed at Uke's forehead or top of the head. In essence, two distinctly different movements that are aimed at similar points on uke that feel very different in there application and projection.

However, despite the differences in attacks from Sh'te, the form itself is a traditional cornerstone for all of Yoshinkan Aikido.

Quote:
Ethan Weisgard wrote:
My teacher, Morihiro Saito Sensei, made a point of this initiating form when doing shomen uchi techniques. He said that the kihon form called for nage to initiate, in just the way Parker Shihan is shown doing. Saito Sensei would call the techniques done where uke attacks with a downward shomen uchi as being ki no nagare…
Interestingly enough, Gozo Shioda sensei and Kiyoyuki Terada sensei are the only Yoshinkan instructors to have studied with Osensei [although it can probably be argued that Shioda sensei's tenure was probably longer - I surely don't know]. It would be interesting to trace where and when a difference in application began [if indeed one does exist] since you say that Saito sensei's approach is similar to what Terada/Parker sensei are teaching.

Any way, I hope that answers your question,

Charles

Last edited by Charlie : 01-30-2006 at 04:48 PM.

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Old 01-30-2006, 06:24 PM   #37
Steven
 
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Re: chokes in aikido

Quote:
Keith Lee wrote:
SNIP ..... In the picture Steven linked ..... SNIP
Dude ... Gomen nasai for not replying sooner. I completely missed this post. Ahem!

First, I never once ever claimed to be ranked in BJJ. The fact is, I am not. My training in BJJ or Aiki-grappling as some Canadians would call it, was through my teacher Mits Yamashita Sensei as well as others who trained directly under Rorion and Rixon Gracie as well as Ralph and Rigen (sp) Machado. At our dojo, we did not grapple for sport or compitition, but rather, for self-defense purposes. Mr Lyons, a student of the Machado's who was graded to shodan and given authority to teach, was teaching BJJ in our dojo at the end of our Aikido classes. So I was further exposed to BJJ in this regard. I did this for a number of years. Ranking in BJJ was not on my list of priorities. Learning the skills is where mine and many others had our focus.

As for that particular choke, I had no idea it was coming. We were in the midst of jiyuwaza and I was striking with yokomen. Typically, when I strike at Parker Sensei, I give him 100% as that is what he expects and I've learned it doesn't hurt as much. Next thing I know, I'm being choke out. It happened way too fast for me to even figure out what the heck happened.

Also consider that the first dojo we were in was was a Judo dojo headed by a Kodokan 7th dan. He frequently used the aikido class to demonstrate all kinds of cool choke holds, throws and pins. So not only did we have experience with the BJJ, we also had Judo. All done after regular Aikido classes.

As for the BJJ and the Aikido that I learned, I found that the principles were pretty much all the same. Just one standing and the other on the ground. When I would listern to Rorion talk about the basics and principles, I couldn't help thinking to myself, "Hey, we do that in aikido." We always tried incorporating aikido locks into our ground game as well and remembering that using strength was a waste of good energy. I grappled with Rorion at the college Yamashita Sensei teaches at and learned this lesson well. I'm a slow learner and also got submitted by Royce Gracie who set me up. I was a triffle bit over confident and paid the price. Now that I think about it, I was calling the Machado's my daddy too. I spent a lot of time looking like this -> <- from being choked out and arm barred. LOL!

Unfortunately for me, my ground game has suffered as of late due to the lack of training. Against a full-time grappler I would most likely be tied up in knots. However I'm pretty sure I could hold my own should I have to really defend myself. Let's hope that day never comes to pass.

In regards to Justin .. we met back in 2000 at a clinic in Southern California featuring Chida Sensei. Justin had the opportunity to see me do a bit of ground work during my enbu. I don't recall doing any chokes though. I was in quite a bit of pain and could barely move as the osteoarthritis in my back was in rare forum, but fortunately, I did things I had been doing for 16+ years, at that time, so the movement was natural; and I had a great uke. Please send my regards to Justin if you still train with, or talk with him.

Well -- that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Last edited by Steven : 01-30-2006 at 06:26 PM.
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Old 01-31-2006, 03:46 AM   #38
Ethan Weisgard
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Re: chokes in aikido

Charles

Thanks for your reply. It answers my question very nicely.

Off topic: Regarding nage/shite's initiating shomen uchi from below to above (towards the face): I believe it has to do with the principle of sen sen no sen. This can get you into a lengthy discussion about attacks in aikido! The condensed version ( in my opinion) is that since you have a designated attacker and defender, then nage/shite is not making an unprovoked attack, and hereby breaking the priciple of aikido being defensive by nature. Nage is merely drawing out the physical energy of the attack, that already is inherent in uke.


In Aiki,

Ethan Weisgard
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Old 01-31-2006, 04:04 AM   #39
Edwin Neal
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Re: chokes in aikido

seems like some style of karate says something like there is no first attack in karate... would it be fair to say that aikido attacks the attack of your attacker...

Edwin Neal


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Old 01-31-2006, 09:28 AM   #40
ian
 
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Re: chokes in aikido

I think it's wrong to think of aikido as a 'grappling art'. We generally have to maintain more distance than most grapplers to prevent a severe weight/strength advantage. It's more about timing and coordinated movement - thus comparing it to wrestling in terms of delivery I think is inappropriate. I've used chokes twice in real situations and they are extremely effective. Both times the attacker was facing the other direction so it was very easy to 'deliver' (I was stopping someone else getting hurt) and would have been easy to complete (to knock-out) if necessary; they were incapacitated in about 1-2 seconds.

I think choking is an extremely useful technique. In many aikido techniques uke can turn away from you to nullify the technique (irimi-nage, ikkyo etc etc) - I always teach my students to think immediately of a choke when someone turns their back to you - they are devestating if done properly (i.e. ensuring balance is also taken and the choke is held on carotid arteries rather than trachea).

P.S. top wrestlers do LOTS of neck exercises - so obviously choking them is a little harder.

---understanding aikido is understanding the training method---
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Old 01-31-2006, 09:32 AM   #41
Ethan Weisgard
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Re: chokes in aikido

In reply to Edwin Neal:

I would say that in a traditonal martial art, your moral base is such that you would not attack an innocent human being. In actual encounters, when the role of aggressor is already clearly established, then I think that the defender may need to choose to "draw out" the aggressor's attack - sen-sen no sen.

Last edited by Ethan Weisgard : 01-31-2006 at 09:35 AM. Reason: missing
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Old 01-31-2006, 11:21 AM   #42
Lyle Bogin
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Re: chokes in aikido

Can anyone answer my original question? Or refer me to one of the articles on aikido journal or something.... Did O'sensei perform the chokes from daito-ryu in his instruction in pre or post war forms of his art? Did he eliminate all chokes? Reserve them for certain students?

I am not trying to ask whether chokes SHOULD be taught. If you like chokes, do chokes. Just curious from a historical perspective...
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Old 01-31-2006, 01:31 PM   #43
Roy Dean
 
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Re: chokes in aikido

Keith,

I've found that the chokes I've been exposed to in aikido/aiki-jujutsu are more of a positional exercise leading into a counter technique than an actual technique in and of itself.

I've found hand/arm chokes to be very difficult to actually apply on a resisting opponent (I'm not including triangle chokes or head and arm chokes). In fact, only this year, as a brown belt, have I been able to pull of basic choking techniques consistently. Before, I may have been able to get an occasional choke, but it usually relied on a mistake by my partner, or just being in the right place at the right time- very different than setting up a choke and laying the trap.

The biggest breakthough in choking, for me, has been correcting small details. For a basic palm up/palm up choke from the guard, inserting your hand deeply into their collar and then waiting to insert your other hand until the moment is right (getting greedy and trying to apply a choke right away is often a telegraphed attack). Precise hand positioning, keeping my elbows close to centerline when setting the choke, and keeping my hands relaxed until the second of application all help increase the odds of getting the tap.

For such a "basic" technique, I've found chokes to be very difficult. Armlocks, leglocks, and triangles are far easier to get, IMHO, as your opponent generally has to only block one of your arms to block the choke. The precision required for a clean choke can be thwarted quickly by a wary opponent (or even a tucked chin), so an attack or sweep is generally necessary to distract your opponent and insert your second hand.

Sincerely,

Roy Dean

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Old 02-01-2006, 07:54 AM   #44
Ethan Weisgard
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Re: chokes in aikido

Lyle,

In answer to your question: the closest I can get is that Saito Sensei taught chokes. Saito Sensei always said that he taught - to the best of his ability - exactly what he was taught by O-Sensei.
This is the closest I can get, since I didn't train with O-Sensei

In Aiki,

Ethan Weisgard
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Old 02-01-2006, 08:34 AM   #45
Edwin Neal
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Re: chokes in aikido

I disagree Ian, i believe aikido is more properly categorized as a grappling art, esp when we can trace so much of it to traditional jujutsu...we must maintain proper ma-ai for proper execution, but many times that is very close distance... for example blending 'hip to hip' in the basic tenkan movements... body to body head to shoulder for the classic kokyu-nage etc... wrestling uses timing and coordinated movement as well...

Edwin Neal


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Old 02-01-2006, 08:39 AM   #46
Edwin Neal
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Re: chokes in aikido

true Ethan, but once we draw the attack... i feel we can 'attack' that attack thinking of it like this has helped me in application of some techniques... it is also an interesting 'parallel' with Bruce Lee's stop hit idea... instead of waiting and letting the kata dori attacker seize your shoulder 'attack' that arm to apply ikkyo... just how i think of it sometimes...

Edwin Neal


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Old 02-02-2006, 07:05 AM   #47
Ethan Weisgard
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Re: chokes in aikido

Quote:
Edwin Neal wrote:
true Ethan, but once we draw the attack... i feel we can 'attack' that attack thinking of it like this has helped me in application of some techniques... it is also an interesting 'parallel' with Bruce Lee's stop hit idea... instead of waiting and letting the kata dori attacker seize your shoulder 'attack' that arm to apply ikkyo... just how i think of it sometimes...
Edwin,

(Going off-topic again!), It sounds like what you are talking about is what we call "Ki no Nagare", which is the higher level of technique. In Kihon, we let uke make the grab, and work from there. The next level - Ju-Tai - (flexible), is where we do the technique right at the moment of contact. The third level is Ryu Tai, or Ki no Nagare, where you lead the opponent when he comes to make the grab, before contact is made. This is the way Saito Sensei taught things.

In Aiki,

Ethan
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Old 02-04-2006, 02:15 PM   #48
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Re: chokes in aikido

A question for Roy Dean (based on post 42)...

Aloha, Roy:

I noticed that you teach a grappling class at your Aikido dojo. When you teach grappling there, do you teach it as straight BJJ, or do you integrate the BJJ techniques into an aikido framework? Since I am a practitioner of JKD, BJJ, and Aikido myself, I am curious about how you bring your BJJ and JKD knowledge to bear on your Aikido training. In my own experience, many of my Aikido instructors were quite hostile to the idea of me teaching anything but traditional Aikido in my Aikido classes (while nobody ever objects to what you teach in a JKD or BJJ class, so long as it works ).

Temet nosce,
Jim

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Old 02-06-2006, 11:59 AM   #49
Roy Dean
 
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Re: chokes in aikido

Aloha, Jim:

When I teach the grappling class at Jiai, I generally teach it as straight BJJ. Occasionally, I'll throw in a kotegaeshi or similar wristlock, but from the perspective of specific techniques, it's mainstream BJJ.

However, I do try to take an "Aiki" approach during instruction, blending one technique into the next, in a sequential flow. This flow of techniques usually incorporates some form of resistance into the sequence (i.e. if your opponent postures up and resists your attempts at Kimura from the guard, follow his resistance directly into a hip bump). Also emphasized in this "aiki" approach are the weak angles to off balance your opponent and the importance of kokyu in sidemount postures.

Most Aikido instructors I've trained under have found mixing in techniques from other arts into their classes distasteful, and rarely been open to it. Jeff Sodeman, the head instructor at Jiai Aikido, is quite open minded in regards to other techniques and other arts complementing and supplementing Aikido, hence my Saturday grappling class. He adds some innovative options/techniques into his Aikido classes, but it never deviates too far from the norm. Separate classes for separate arts, to prevent any kind of murky martial soup...

It's great that you get to train under Burton Richardson! I've always admired Burton for his skills, breadth of knowledge, and refreshing honesty. A friend of mine trained under him for several years and many of Burton's perspectives opened my eyes...

Best,

Roy Dean

Last edited by Roy Dean : 02-06-2006 at 12:02 PM.
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Old 02-06-2006, 12:31 PM   #50
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Re: chokes in aikido

I don't think that you'll find any "true aikido" chokes, but there are plenty out there. Just look back to daito-ryu jujitsu, they have plenty. You can also find plenty in judo books or videos. Chokes are very effective and usually not to complicated to learn and incorporate... just be careful.... when they're applied correctly, it takes very little force and very little time to choke someone completely out!

Good luck!

Nate
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