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Old 05-17-2005, 07:35 PM   #26
RonRagusa
Dojo: Berkshire Hills Aikido
Location: Massachusetts
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Re: When is Aikido not Aikido?

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote:
I mean if I have 200lbs coming towards me and I perform irmi-nage I effectively have to stop that 200lbs from moving forward...
Not really, you only have to stop him from the neck up. What makes the technique work so well is the fact that his forward momentum isn't checked along the whole length of his body. Consequently uke keeps going, except for his head that is. He becomes dynamically unbalanced and is thrown.
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Old 05-18-2005, 06:52 AM   #27
Nick Simpson
Dojo: White Rose Aikido - Durham University
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Re: When is Aikido not Aikido?

You could also let him continue forward with aikido and this would still be an entering throw/iriminage.

They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
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Old 05-18-2005, 11:16 AM   #28
theflyingheadbuttsuplex
Dojo: Aikido Institute Davis
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Re: When is Aikido not Aikido?

when is aikido not aikido? when it isn't!

you can't get much more logical than that

If there is no wind, row!
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Old 05-18-2005, 12:41 PM   #29
DustinAcuff
Dojo: Tan Aiki Dojo
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Re: When is Aikido not Aikido?

LOL Burt!

Alex, Ron is right. You turn yourself into a fulcrum when you preform technique, but you use uke's own energy to preform your work. A bar at head level will do nothing on its own, not even move, but if you are running at the bar you will effectively force yourself into irimi nage, with your feet higher than your head. Did the bar act on you? Nope. Did you act on it? Yep. Did you effect the bar? Nope. Who did the work of throwing you? You did. Aiki does not have to throw you. Once you provide the energy, we just direct it. Gravity and your foward momentum do all the work. When we tenkan, you have centripital and centrepital energies acting on you, one pulling you in and one pulling you away. We walk the fine line where the two are neutral and there can be no resistance. If we let you in too close then you run into us and move us instead. If we let you out too far then we either have to pull you back or you fly off away from us. If you have ever seen someone on a skateboard do a grind then you should be able to see what i'm talking abou0t. If the are properly balanced, then they nail it. If they are overbalanced either way then they fall. Did they have to stop the weight of one side to preform the grind? No, they held it in balance.
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Old 05-19-2005, 04:46 PM   #30
Ketsan
Dojo: Zanshin Kai
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Re: When is Aikido not Aikido?

Actually in a round about way Rons proved my point. Aiki stops his head, Ju lets him continue on in his entirety. Why put the effort into stopping his head? Same with the bar. The reason the bar doesn't move is because it's attached to several thousand tons of building, so in the head on clash of momentums the smaller one will inevitably loose. Why have the clash though?
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Old 05-19-2005, 05:05 PM   #31
DustinAcuff
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Re: When is Aikido not Aikido?

No clash is the general idea. Can you give me a realistic example of how jujitsu does not clash?
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Old 05-20-2005, 06:05 AM   #32
Nick Simpson
Dojo: White Rose Aikido - Durham University
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Re: When is Aikido not Aikido?

"Aiki stops his head"

Not nessecarily, in standard iriminage, aiki re-directs the head without stopping it. In other forms of iriminage it is possible to let ukes head continue forward.

They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
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Old 05-20-2005, 06:33 AM   #33
Tim Gerrard
 
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Re: When is Aikido not Aikido?

Quote:
Richard Player wrote:
Don't believe me? Do Soto kaiten-nage on a boxer and see how far you get.
:
Again, it's dismissing techniques that are seen as ineffective, kaiten nage is one of the few techniques that I've actually gotten to work in the real world. Had a 16st Guardsman rolling into the gutter with it, and he was trying to take my head off. It's really what's there and what your hands find rather than the technique that you have in your mind.

Quote:
Dustin Acuff wrote:
So is the question is asked as "when is aiki no longer aiki" then it is when there is no longer harmony between uke and nage. When you are relating ONLY to aikido then i would have to answer go back to the branch of aikido that you follow and see what YOU think because you are kind of on your own.
:
All I'm getting at is where other people view where their concept of Aiki begins and ends.

Aikido doesn't work? My Aikido works, what on earth are you practicing?!
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Old 05-20-2005, 07:17 AM   #34
Dazzler
Dojo: Bristol North Aikido Dojo
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Re: When is Aikido not Aikido?

Quote:
Richard Player wrote:
Do Soto kaiten-nage on a boxer and see how far you get.
Try it against an uppercut or stomach punch...you won't get the perfect dojo version but if you utilise the soto kaiten nage body movement you can achieve a very similar variant.

Cheers

D
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Old 05-20-2005, 07:53 AM   #35
Ketsan
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Re: When is Aikido not Aikido?

A properly executed sholder throw. They never stop going forward, in fact you add directly to their forward motion.
Or that one the name of eludes me at this time. I was in a night club one night, all hell was breaking loose, all of my lot were fighting all of someone elses lot because my mate was chatting up some dude's girlfriend. I'm talking 18-20 on the 6 of us, although we didn't realise that until we were heroicly running away, there was about 10 chasing us and we reckon we decked another 10 in the club. It's the kind of club where everyone knows everyone else and also happens to be very rough, so little fights become very big fights very quickly, on top of that getting in there underage was no problem and the bouncers wouldn't break up fights because every single bouncer that has ever worked there has been stabbed while working there.
Anywho, I'd dragged one guy off my mate, dumped him on his ass, finished him off, caught something out of the corner of my eye and it's this bloke walking over like he owned the place. Next thing I know he's picked up a bottle, smashed it off a table and he made a very good attempt at bottling me with it. Imagine a sorta cross between a cross and a hook with a broken bottle on the end. I've blocked and grabbed the wrist with my left, stepped in took his elbow with my right, shifted in under his arm almost like utchi kaiten, turned and dropped onto my knees.
He started off going forward, he ended up going forward and at no time did he cease moving forward. First I overbalanced him by adding to his forward momentum then, as he fell, I guided him down.

Tomo nage same thing. Shi-ho nage ura too, that's old Ju-jitsu, same family as ude garami. A lot of the ura techniques are virtually pure Ju-jitsu.
The thing I notice about doing Ju-jitsu and Aikido is that you can see the Ju-jitsu technique the Aikido technique was born from. Take Tenchi nage and Osoto-otoshi, they're very simular it's just that Tenchi nage relys on a body slam to knock uke over and Osoto-otoshi just reaps the legs. Tenchi nage ends with uke flying back the way they came or on a diagonal, Osoto-otoshi if timed right has uke moving forward to strike and then simply dropping on the spot, there's no change in direction.
Shi-ho nage ura for example, uke faces the direction they attacked until they fall, it's their forward momentum that brings them down. Omote on the other hand you end up taking them in a whole new direction. Kote-gaeshi ura is the same, you don't oppose their forward motion, you take their hand and YOU
wander off in a new direction and they just keep going forward. There's no clashing because you're moving at 90 degrees to their movement.

Contrast this with Aikido where the thing that brings uke down is the unbalancing motion of your tenkan or the fact that you're dragging them off across the mat.
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Old 05-20-2005, 08:40 AM   #36
Nick Simpson
Dojo: White Rose Aikido - Durham University
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Re: When is Aikido not Aikido?

Nice stuff Alex!

They're all screaming about the rock n roll, but I would say that it's getting old. - REFUSED.
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Old 05-20-2005, 04:12 PM   #37
Ketsan
Dojo: Zanshin Kai
Location: Birmingham
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Re: When is Aikido not Aikido?

Quote:
Nick Simpson wrote:
Nice stuff Alex!
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Old 05-26-2005, 09:35 AM   #38
Randathamane
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 56
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Re: When is Aikido not Aikido?

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote:
A properly executed sholder throw. They never stop going forward, in fact you add directly to their forward motion.
Or that one the name of eludes me at this time. I was in a night club one night, all hell was breaking loose, all of my lot were fighting all of someone elses lot because my mate was chatting up some dude's girlfriend. I'm talking 18-20 on the 6 of us, although we didn't realise that until we were heroicly running away, there was about 10 chasing us and we reckon we decked another 10 in the club. It's the kind of club where everyone knows everyone else and also happens to be very rough, so little fights become very big fights very quickly, on top of that getting in there underage was no problem and the bouncers wouldn't break up fights because every single bouncer that has ever worked there has been stabbed while working there.
Anywho, I'd dragged one guy off my mate, dumped him on his ass, finished him off, caught something out of the corner of my eye and it's this bloke walking over like he owned the place. Next thing I know he's picked up a bottle, smashed it off a table and he made a very good attempt at bottling me with it. Imagine a sorta cross between a cross and a hook with a broken bottle on the end. I've blocked and grabbed the wrist with my left, stepped in took his elbow with my right, shifted in under his arm almost like utchi kaiten, turned and dropped onto my knees.
He started off going forward, he ended up going forward and at no time did he cease moving forward. First I overbalanced him by adding to his forward momentum then, as he fell, I guided him down.

Tomo nage same thing. Shi-ho nage ura too, that's old Ju-jitsu, same family as ude garami. A lot of the ura techniques are virtually pure Ju-jitsu.
The thing I notice about doing Ju-jitsu and Aikido is that you can see the Ju-jitsu technique the Aikido technique was born from. Take Tenchi nage and Osoto-otoshi, they're very simular it's just that Tenchi nage relys on a body slam to knock uke over and Osoto-otoshi just reaps the legs. Tenchi nage ends with uke flying back the way they came or on a diagonal, Osoto-otoshi if timed right has uke moving forward to strike and then simply dropping on the spot, there's no change in direction.
Shi-ho nage ura for example, uke faces the direction they attacked until they fall, it's their forward momentum that brings them down. Omote on the other hand you end up taking them in a whole new direction. Kote-gaeshi ura is the same, you don't oppose their forward motion, you take their hand and YOU
wander off in a new direction and they just keep going forward. There's no clashing because you're moving at 90 degrees to their movement.

Contrast this with Aikido where the thing that brings uke down is the unbalancing motion of your tenkan or the fact that you're dragging them off across the mat.

Pip Pip old boy!
This is what i was bashin on about in starbuck lasy week. Redirecting energy is difficulkt as you ultimatly have to pu energy into the system in order to change it. Why bother?
Every joule of energy you expend decreases the energy you have to do other things- like advancing backwards from his 30+ mates who are really "gonna peel ya" or "openya up".

-Re-direct Uke when necacery, this whole take him out this way, move round him, tenkan, irimi, backfoot irimi tenkan and then dump him seems hidiously well complicated.



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