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Old 10-09-2004, 10:01 AM   #26
Dave603
Dojo: Aikido Of Cincinnati
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Re: Aikido and Law Enforcement?

Although it sounds like you kind of got thrown in the deep end, I think everyone feels awkward and lost at first. Hopefully, if you decide that this dojo is the one for you, they would offer some more basic/beginner level classes so that you can work on the things you need in order to get the full benefit of more advanced training. The bad news is that the lost and awkward feeling should never completely go away...if it does, you probably aren't learning! If you like the dojo, and aikido appeals to you, stick it out for awhile.
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Old 10-09-2004, 10:05 AM   #27
Dave603
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Re: Aikido and Law Enforcement?

Quote:
Michael Hackett wrote:
Bravo! Well said, Dave.

Michael
Thanks, Michael.
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Old 10-09-2004, 01:50 PM   #28
disabledaccount
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Re: Aikido and Law Enforcement?

The LAPD has been teaching a stripped-down version of Aikido to it's defensive tactics instructors who have in turn been passing this along to thier fellow officers since the seventies.

Koga Sensei has modified traditional Aikikai into something he calls "Combat Aikido" to teach to cops and marines.

Chiba Sensei has many, many students who are marines, border patrol agents, and highway patrol officers.

Most of the arrest techniques and joint manipulations I've seen taught in defensive tactics courses are poorly executed aikido techniques, namely ikkyo, nikkyo, and sankyo. It follows that if you took the time to learn to do these things right, you'd be better off.

Trouble is, most cops don't have the time or motivation to spend years learning a martial art. The fact that you do shows some good potential.

Trust your instincts. I too am pursuing a carreer in law enforcement and have had the opportunity to "test" Aikido when restraining violent mentally-ill patents at the Psych hospital I currently work at. I chose Aikido for the very benifits many others have already sighted here.
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Old 10-09-2004, 02:59 PM   #29
Yokaze
 
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Re: Aikido and Law Enforcement?

I could swear I heard somewhere that Aikido is taught as an official martial art to police officers in Japan. It's a slightly different style than what I practice, but I would strongly suggest taking it in addition to other martial arts you may be learning. Aikido is nice because it focuses on restraint as opposed to knocking your opponent silly (like karate or TKD).

"The only true victory is victory over oneself."

Rob Cunningham
3rd Kyu

Icon courtesy of Norbert Knoll http://www.aikido-verein-hannover.de
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Old 10-10-2004, 12:18 PM   #30
JasonFDeLucia
 
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Re: Aikido and Law Enforcement?

Quote:
Mike Vignale wrote:
Hi I am new to the board and do not currently study Aikido. I am very interested in its style and the discipline involved with it however am somewhat unsure about whether or not this style will be right for me. I am a criminal justice major in college and in about a year and a half, I plan on graduating and persuing a career as a police officer. I am aware that Aikido is a disciplined art that trains to walk away from fights and use force only when neccesary. My question is- would Aikido be an effective tool in the law enforcement when required to take a perp and gain control or would a more aggressive style such as jiu jitsu be more appropriate for what I am looking to do. I myself am one who avoids physical conflict as much as possible, however will be entering a career where physical self defense will be a much more common aspect of my life. Please let me know what all of you experienced aikido followers feel. (If you do not believe aikido is appropriate, please be honest, either way i greatly respect the art and will more than likely take it someday anyways) Thank you.
Mike
if you're serious enough to take the time knowing your life hangs in the balance you should study aikido concurrently with basic judo/jujitsu/wrestling/boxing ect.because the aim of aikido is the highest form but in reality beginners can be taken out of the highest form into the lower forms ,you should be able to use both forms and aim at getting back to the highest form as quickly as possible for efficiency sake.highest form has as it's ideal one attacker or many attackers lowest form usually is sportive in nature and doesn't allow for dealing with more than one attacker .even advanced aikidoka will be taken into the lower forms but the aim is always the same .
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Old 10-10-2004, 02:16 PM   #31
Michael Hackett
Dojo: Kenshinkan Dojo (Aikido of North County) Vista, CA
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Re: Aikido and Law Enforcement?

Mr. DeLucia,

Could you clarify what you posted? I simply don't understand your use of "forms" after several readings. Is the highest form of aikido what we should all aspire to, while the lowest form simply brawling? What does "sportive" mean in the context of the lowest form? Not trying to flame you here, but what you're trying to convey is going over my head.

Regards,

Michael

Michael
"Leave the gun. Bring the cannoli."
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Old 10-10-2004, 07:29 PM   #32
PeterR
 
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Re: Aikido and Law Enforcement?

Quote:
Craig Hocker wrote:
This is good advice. It's really nonsense for someone to tell you to go do judo or jujutsu instead of aikido.
Gee thanks Craig.
Quote:
The nice thing about aikido for you is that it has a long history in law enforcement both in Japan
Judo dominates the scene for both recruits and continuous training in Japan, followed by Kendo with Aikido a distant third.

Again I think Aikido has a lot to offer but .....

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 10-10-2004, 08:18 PM   #33
GaiaM
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Re: Aikido and Law Enforcement?

Sometimes it is good to move straight into techniques and pick up the "basics" along the way. Balance and centeredness should come alongside learning the movements and the "feel" of the art. In my dojo, new students are taken aside for some basic training for a class or two, but integrate into the regular class as soon as possible, sometimes their first night depending on their physical aptitude and fitness level. I think this is one of the greatest elements of aikido, learning by feel...
Gaia

___________
Gaia Marrs
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Old 10-10-2004, 10:40 PM   #34
L. Camejo
 
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Re: Aikido and Law Enforcement?

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote:
Judo dominates the scene for both recruits and continuous training in Japan, followed by Kendo with Aikido a distant third.
Hi Peter,

Not to question your statistics, but when I last spoke to Shishida Shihan he indicated to me that he taught a regular course for about 35 different police groups (or representatives from 35 different police districts, not sure) in separate courses utilising a modified form of the basic Shodokan methods. This is not the same as what the Metropolitan Tokyo Police does, but I got the feeling that it was a training course utilised by a great many police groups. Of course this may not be much in comparison to the training done in other systems.

In this country Judo dominates the training for Prisons officers, I taught a few of them Aikido as well. Imho the Judo training is good for dealing with someone who is fighting back, but if a Cop ends up on the ground with a struggling perp then something has gone drastically wrong. From what I've seen of some Judoka handling serious striking attacks, I'd give Aikido the edge on Judo for cops in stand up situations. Just my opinion from what I've seen.

Personally I think Aikido resistance training and drills in a small, simple core of techniques may be more applicable to the majority of situations police may encounter, so the methods found in many dojos may not apply. This is as far as the technical aspects go. Aikido also has a lot to offer in the psychological / dealing with the conflict / aggression / aggressor area. For a good degree of physical applicability though there should be a lot of resistance training if cops were to use it successfully on the job regularly.

My 2 cents.
LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
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Old 10-10-2004, 11:06 PM   #35
PeterR
 
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Re: Aikido and Law Enforcement?

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote:
Not to question your statistics, but when I last spoke to Shishida Shihan he indicated to me that he taught a regular course for about 35 different police groups (or representatives from 35 different police districts, not sure) in separate courses utilizing a modified form of the basic Shodokan methods.
I don't know Shishida Shihan's teaching schedule but suffice it to say he is not running around to 35 different police dojos at least on a regular basis. Nariyama Shihan until very recently (he apparently stopped because of time constraints) taught Aikido to the Osaka police. What you will see in very police station (not the Koban/police boxes) is a dojo where they primarily practice Judo often modified for their particular purpose. Here at least the police have their very own martial art revolving around arrest techniques. Police kendo is also very strong.
Quote:
Personally I think Aikido resistance training and drills in a small, simple core of techniques may be more applicable to the majority of situations police may encounter, so the methods found in many dojos may not apply.
Agree but you know I would.
Quote:
This is as far as the technical aspects go. Aikido also has a lot to offer in the psychological / dealing with the conflict / aggression / aggressor area.
In my opinion over-rated. Besides they should get that through regular training.

Anyhow - I assumed that the person who posed the original question would not have access to a Shodokan dojo. I think the primary benefit of Judo is that you get to mix it up. Also Aikido techniques in of of themselves are brutal with far more chance of hurting someone than Judo techniques.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 10-11-2004, 04:48 AM   #36
Peter Seth
Dojo: Zanshin. Sunderland University
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Smile Re: Aikido and Law Enforcement?

Hi Mike
No. a simple answer is.
Firstly, you should have been taught how to fall/roll safely and efficiently. Then Tai sabaki - body movements/evasion. These usually take a few months to become reasonably safe. These things are done at the same time you are learning the nine basic techniques as a base for to expand your knowledge.
Your instructor seems a little 'gung ho'. but if that is his way?
Pete
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Old 10-11-2004, 06:29 AM   #37
wendyrowe
Dojo: Aikidog Aikikai
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Re: Aikido and Law Enforcement?

Quote:
Michael Hackett wrote:
Mr. DeLucia,

Could you clarify what you posted? I simply don't understand your use of "forms" after several readings. Is the highest form of aikido what we should all aspire to, while the lowest form simply brawling? What does "sportive" mean in the context of the lowest form? Not trying to flame you here, but what you're trying to convey is going over my head.

Regards,

Michael

I believe he means that Aikido should be the ideal, and once you are good enough at it you will be able to use it very effectively against one opponent or multiple attackers. But most fights get taken to the ground, and you need to know what to do once you're there. It's easy for a beginner to be taken down, and even advanced aikidoka might end up on the ground.

When Jason DeLucia is working with police, he teaches them aikido techniques but also groundwork. In the groundwork, though, he stresses that as soon as you can you should get back up into a more upright, balanced kneeling position so you can use aikido techniques to control your opponent while potentially dealing with any other threats.

(He also has them train wearing a piece of tape representing their gun, and has the opponent try to grab it during the altercation. It modifies their techniques since they have to keep that side away from the opponent, but instills a critically important habit. Just an example of how adaptable aikido is.)
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Old 10-11-2004, 08:19 AM   #38
L. Camejo
 
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Re: Aikido and Law Enforcement?

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote:
I don't know Shishida Shihan's teaching schedule but suffice it to say he is not running around to 35 different police dojos at least on a regular basis. Nariyama Shihan until very recently (he apparently stopped because of time constraints) taught Aikido to the Osaka police. What you will see in very police station (not the Koban/police boxes) is a dojo where they primarily practice Judo often modified for their particular purpose. Here at least the police have their very own martial art revolving around arrest techniques. Police kendo is also very strong.
Hi Peter,

Yeah I figured that Shishida was doing maybe a few courses where the police folks came to him, not running around to different dojos as his schedule is hectic as well. The reason I sent this your way is because it's always good to get info from someone who is there and can give first hand knowledge. Thanks. I remember reading about the Japanese police martial art somewhere once. The name escapes me at the moment. I think it had techniques on using the baton and restraining and tying techniques for arrests too.


Quote:
In my opinion over-rated. Besides they should get that through regular training.
Quite so, but I guess I was referring mainly to our police situation here, where any training in how to de-escalate or deal with aggression in a more constructive manner than shooting people would be welcome.

Quote:
Anyhow - I assumed that the person who posed the original question would not have access to a Shodokan dojo. I think the primary benefit of Judo is that you get to mix it up. Also Aikido techniques in of of themselves are brutal with far more chance of hurting someone than Judo techniques.
Makes sense to me. Though thinking about taking some of those standing Judo throws on a hard surface just makes me cringe. Of course the thing is one can modify the technique to take a lot of the velocity out of the fall while still keeping control. And of course the resistance training in Judo is invaluable in itself.

By the way, any word on an exact date for the October Internationals in Tokyo next year yet?

LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
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Old 10-11-2004, 10:17 AM   #39
Michael Hackett
Dojo: Kenshinkan Dojo (Aikido of North County) Vista, CA
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Re: Aikido and Law Enforcement?

Ms. Rowe,

Sounds like a reasonable interpretation of what DeLucia Sensei wrote. That's about what I thought he said too. IMO, he's right about anyone being susceptible to being taken to the ground under the right circumstances and needing to know what to do then. His idea of the tape to represent the sidearm isn't bad. I started in the days of the Border Patrol thumb snap holster and purchased one of the first Bianchi breakfront retention holsters when they hit the market. My greatest safety concern was losing my firearm in a scuffle or to some drunk during a bar check or something. Thanks for the translation.

M

Michael
"Leave the gun. Bring the cannoli."
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Old 10-11-2004, 07:08 PM   #40
PeterR
 
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Re: Aikido and Law Enforcement?

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote:
I think it had techniques on using the baton and restraining and tying techniques for arrests too.
Taiho jutsu.
Quote:
Though thinking about taking some of those standing Judo throws on a hard surface just makes me cringe.
Same for Aikido especially full bore atemi waza
Quote:
And of course the resistance training in Judo is invaluable in itself.
which was my point
Quote:
By the way, any word on an exact date for the October Internationals in Tokyo next year yet?
No idea - never even considered asking. I've been sending Honbu a lot of e-mails lately so if I remember next time I go I'll ask. Perhaps Hori-san who is an Aikiweb regular will see this and ask for us.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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