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Old 10-09-2004, 11:30 AM   #26
Shane Mokry
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Re: Gun Control

Thanks again Sean,

Just as I suspected. I will keep looking too. There has to be some truth in the middle ground. But I bet one can find a study to support just about anything they wanted to argue about. I personally don't want to argue...I want the truth.

No problem about the deer. I will kill at least 2 this year because they make such good chili and sausage. We do however have plenty of garden FRESH vegetables too...purple hull peas, cabbage, broccoli,tomatoes, cucumber, snap beans, onions, garlic, okra... We'll find something for you to eat. It'll be fun. All you need is a plane ticket and some clothes. I'll pick you up at the airport...train...beer...hunt...shoot...(no beer)...ride 4wheelers...beer...it'll be fun.

Take care,

Shane
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Old 10-09-2004, 11:46 AM   #27
Shane Mokry
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Re: Gun Control

Thomas,
Thanks. I think you have the right idea. Be safe. Shoot straight.

Shane
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Old 10-09-2004, 04:49 PM   #28
John Lilly
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Re: Gun Control

I suggest you all be very cautious of any statistics in the area of firearms, gun control and the like. I am a law enforcement officer, firearms owner and member of the NRA. There are just too many people who will put a spin on this trying to support their position an unfortunately that includes the NRA sometimes. Further law enforcement statistics are very "fuzzy" in their own right. What is counted as a gun crime in one part of the country might not be in another.
I would agree with the statment that the USA has strict gun laws that are not enforced. In my state (Washington) we had an intiative that provides very severe penalties for armed crime but they are almost never used because the prosecutors don't charge them.
John
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Old 10-09-2004, 08:46 PM   #29
MitchMZ
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Re: Gun Control

I think most assault weapons and handguns should be banned to the public; and only those who use them in legitimate shooting competitions, sports, etc should be able to get a special permit to carry them.

I don't see any problem with rifles and shotguns designed for recreation rather then combat. Personally, I think owning guns is a priveledge, not a right (just like driving). This why it needs to be a little tougher to acquire firearms; combat oriented or not.

I just hope they don't take my airsoft guns away...
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Old 10-10-2004, 10:04 AM   #30
Shane Mokry
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Re: Gun Control

Mitch,

At this point, FOR ME, firearm ownership and use is a right. The battle to keep that right is not only about keeping the right to bear arms. It's about not letting the government take any more rights from the people. In my opinion, if they can get this one....

John,

I agree. The laws are very, very different from state to state...Just look at California...

Regards all,

Shane
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Old 10-10-2004, 02:42 PM   #31
Aikidoiain
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Re: Gun Control

In the UK, the Police are unarmed (although Tactical Firearms Units do exist). The citizens are not allowed to carry firearms.

If any Government chooses to arm its citizens, this is effectively creating an army. So, instead of thousands of unarmed peace protesters turning up at the Government's door - they'll be met with an army instead. This is the first step to revolution and anarchy.

So, what would happen? Would the Military step in and slaughter the very people its Government had armed!? Crazy.

The US has already sold arms to most of the World's terrorist organizations - now look what's happening. Innocent people are being killed every day by US made weaponry. Is it just me, or does this sound a little sick?

In the UK criminals already have guns. I feel that if the people on the street had them too, it would lead to disaster. I should also mention that the "armed" Police units in this country have already murdered innocent bystanders (by mistake!!!).

The whole idea of arming a Nation is tantamount to revolution and anarchy.

Iain.
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Old 10-10-2004, 04:31 PM   #32
Aikidoiain
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Re: Gun Control

I'd like to add to my previous post :-

There's a shop here in Glasgow (which I shan't name) which sells combat knives (like the ones the Military use), as well as swords (!) - but most shocking of all - replica firearms!!!

I could go to that shop tomorrow and walk out with a very real looking MP5 automatic machine gun! Or, perhaps, I may just buy a couple of 9mm handguns (plus shoulder holsters of course). Why is this allowed?

Trust me, these guns look very real, and as for selling combat knives....well that's just ridiculous. Now begs the question - what type of individual would buy such products? And, for what use? Honestly, the mind simply boggles.

You may not know this, but a few years back, a middle-aged man armed to the teeth with real 9 mm's as well as a machine gun, calmly walked into a quiet primary school in Dunblane, entered the gym hall and proceeded to open fire on the kids and the teacher. I can't remember the death toll, but it was high. I think they all died. This is now known as the "Dunblane Massacre".

This act of indiscriminate killing caused outrage throughout the whole World. These kind of incidents happen a lot in this country. Firstly, how did these evil individuals get those guns and secondly Why? Why do people do such things to their fellow human being? I hate guns. I hate gun culture and everyone who indulges in it. Are we not civilized?

A couple of days ago in the UK, a 14 year old girl was shot dead while walking home from a night out - in a drive-by shooting! She was shot 6 times!! Why? My deepest sympathies go to her family.

I'm sorry, this subject just gets me enraged.

Iain.

Last edited by Aikidoiain : 10-10-2004 at 04:38 PM.
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Old 10-10-2004, 06:41 PM   #33
dan guthrie
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Re: Gun Control

Rather than refute some of your claims Iain: you don't know me very well but we've exchanged some private e-mails. I own several handguns and I reload my own ammunition. I'm taking Aikido because it gives me the option of ending conflict without escalating the violence and causing injury.
I love Aikido because of this. If someone tries to harm me, and this is very unlikely considering where I live, I will retreat if possible. I use my handguns for fun.
If you knew me better you wouldn't deny me this hobby.
There are 10s of millions of people like me here and in your country as well.
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Old 10-10-2004, 06:55 PM   #34
Shane Mokry
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Re: Gun Control

I'm one of them Dan!

Shane
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Old 10-10-2004, 07:31 PM   #35
Shane Mokry
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Re: Gun Control

Iain,

Let's not prove everyone RIGHT and get upset. I wanted to prove that we could discuss views rationally as Aikidoka and get a bunch of points of view. So far we are doing fine.

As far as arming citizens...you are very wrong in thinking that our protests are not peaceful. US citizens have ALWAYS been armed. We have protests all the time. They do not turn out to be slaughters. HOWEVER, you are right in pointing out the obvious. They could become revolutions...and probably successful ones... but the government hasn't pushed that button yet and the American people generally use all our other freedoms and rights to protest thing they don't agree with. Apparently, we are satisfied with the results of our peaceful ways of changing things we don't like about our laws and government. By the way, I would think that since the military is made up of citizens, most of which fight for the people rather than the government, it would be very unlikely that the military would target its own citizens. I hope!

There are controls on our guns. You can't just go buy what you want. The MP5 is a very nice 9mm submachine gun...and I have shot them. Very fun. I do not however own one and I can't because you have to obtain a Federal Firearms License (FFL) to get FULLY automatic weapons in the US. If I remember it is a $200.00 a year tax on each automatic firearm and you have to be willing to submit to annual and surprise inspections of your wepons, which I am not! And...why would you get 9mm's when you can get .45's? Just kidding.

I'm sorry to hear about Dublane. It's very tragic. But Iain, We are not all sickos ya know. Don't take this the wrong way, because I have a very peaceful nature, but, I can think of much crueler ways to kill a bunch of kids than to shoot them. As a matter of fact, I've seen much crueler stuff in the news. (like beheading people with dull knives! or drowning kids in a bath tub) Compared to that I think shooting is fairly humane. Why do people do it? Who knows. I do know one thing. Having the ability to do harm is much different than doing it.

Peace man

Shane
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Old 10-10-2004, 08:00 PM   #36
Aikidoiain
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Re: Gun Control

I meant no offence Dan. I'm sure you're right that the majority of handgun users are like yourself - good responsible people. It's the ones who are not that concerns me. I just get so upset when I hear of shootings of innocent people.

And Shane, yes I'm sure there are far more brutal ways to kill children, but the method is not the point - it's the intent. and the outcome that are the real issues.

Quite frankly, if I was a parent of one of those poor children, I would be devastated at their loss. Shooting, stabbing, hanging...what does it matter to the parents? All that matters, is there child is dead.

Sorry if I offended you both.

Iain.
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Old 10-10-2004, 08:07 PM   #37
Shane Mokry
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Re: Gun Control

No offense taken at all... debate is good.
I hope you understand that even us gun nutsget outraged at the murder of children. We just don't want to see our guns taken away because of some lunatic who hapened to use a gun instead of a ball point pen.
I have children too...I'd lose my mind!

Shane
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Old 10-11-2004, 08:08 AM   #38
dan guthrie
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Re: Gun Control

No offense taken Iain, this isn't the first debate I've had in this area. When I get a chance to talk with someone with your position I take it as an opportunity to sneak inside your armor, tell you you're wrong and give you a big hug. Then I put a "kick me" sign on your back and run like hell.
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Old 10-11-2004, 11:37 AM   #39
MitchMZ
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Re: Gun Control

Airsoft guns, and many paintball markers, could potentially be considered replica firearms. Although, these do have legitmate sporting purposes and really are fairly harmless...even when compared to a bb gun. Simply put, using these guns as blunt weapons would probably be more dangerous to someone than the actual projectiles.

I'm actually not a huge fan of real guns, but I love airsoft and paintball. These activities truly are great for team building and self esteem when done safely and properly (just like martial arts). I use a tremendous amount of common sense when hauling my airsoft guns, as they look like real firearms. Replica firearms serve a purpose for me, and many law enforcement personel. In fact, I've heard of some airsoft and paintball CQB fields using civilians as the opposition for the training of law enforcement tactical teams. If you ever get the chance, try paintball or airsoft; they are a blast and usually the people are really great. If we are allowed to train in the ancient arts of combat, shouldn't we also be able to train in the modern?

Last edited by MitchMZ : 10-11-2004 at 11:41 AM.
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Old 10-11-2004, 04:46 PM   #40
Shane Mokry
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Re: Gun Control

Good point Mitch,

Is it expensive?

Shane
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Old 10-11-2004, 05:22 PM   #41
Lan Powers
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Re: Gun Control

Offline Re: Gun Control

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>quote
In the UK, the Police are unarmed (although Tactical Firearms Units do exist). The citizens are not allowed to carry firearms.

If any Government chooses to arm its citizens, this is effectively creating an army. So, instead of thousands of unarmed peace protesters turning up at the Government's door - they'll be met with an army instead. This is the first step to revolution and anarchy < unquote

One of the very first steps in Adolf Hitlers programs of his "New Germany" was to disarm the public.

(Actually the treaty's after WW2 limited the military arms.... just not private ownership)
There is a quite well known quote on this topic... can anyone recall the actual wording?

If the government has all power and the public has no means of personal protection, then it can lead to the rampant growth of totalitarianism. Doesn't have to ...Look at UK - can though... Look at Germany in the '30's.

Having a firearm, and the gut to use it, was a factor in being able to "save" my younger siblings once.
I don't think many will willingly surrender their RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS *constitutionaly guarantied.
I won't.
Lan

Play nice, practice hard, but remember, this is a MARTIAL art!
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Old 10-11-2004, 06:29 PM   #42
Aikidoiain
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Re: Gun Control

I don't think I'll be visiting the US of any other country that allows its citizens to carry firearms. I find it all a bit "odd", and threatening.

Incidentally, Adolf Hitler was a Psychotic Megalomaniac - so I would never use him as an example!

To each their own, I suppose.

Iain.
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Old 10-11-2004, 07:38 PM   #43
Thomas Ambrose
 
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Re: Gun Control

Iain, there is a large variety of laws throughout the US, so if you still wanted to visit and see out beautiful country, there are plenty of options where guns are either not allowed, or at least heavily restricted That's the beauty of Federalism!

Throughout the US, gun laws are very different. In Texas, you can own and carry just about anything. In my state, Michigan, you can own anything that is, but you can only carry a handgun, providing it is concealed and you have obtained a special liscense and passed safety courses as certified by the state police department. Of course, this doesn't apply to military and law enforcement. Nowhere in the US, can a citizen own a fully automatic weapon, with a few very restrictive exceptions. So one bullet per trigger pull, max.

In Washington DC, you cannot have a handgun, period. I think the same goes for New York. In Chicago I don't beleive you are allowed to own any firearm. Incidently, these are some of the highest crime areas. People could argue in circles about which is a cause to what?

Does the lack of armed law-abiding citizens increase violent crime because the citizens are undefended, or does an increase in crime cause local government to increase the implementation of gun restrictions and bans? It then gets reduced down to a useless "chicken and egg" argument. It probably is fair to say that current bans are not truly effective against crime, as blunt objects and knives are still common weapons of violent crime.

You can also trace many gun crimes back to someone who obtained a firearm illegally. Columbine: the kids either were given access to parent guns, or bought some guns at a pawn shop I cannot remember which, but illegal either way since they were minors. The dealer who sold the rifle to the "Beltway Sniper" did not follow up on records and paperwork, and that shows questionable motives. I think we ought to try fully enforcing the current laws before passing outright bans. Just my thoughts!

Personally, I am in favor of allowing law abiding citizens to own firearms, the so-called assualt rifles. No rocket-propelled grenades or machine-guns or anything. I am a tall guy and have the hardest time comfortably holding a traditionally stocked rifle. I feel much more comfortable with a pistol grip. The gun I fire at the range is a Romanian WASR-10, which is basically the same design as an AK-47, only not automatic. It fits my body perfectly, is reliable, fun to shoot, and very easy to clean and take care of. Since I do target practice with it and I can purchase five-round magazines to make it legal to hunt with in my state, I suppose it has a "legitimate recreational purpose." On the other hand, because it "looks" like an AK-47, many want to ban it.

Anyway, those are my meanderings and a few answers to some people's posts. Hopefully I am showing that firearms-enthusiasts can be well educated and respectful people!
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Old 10-11-2004, 09:08 PM   #44
MitchMZ
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Re: Gun Control

Shane, Airsoft is very reasonable and the people have some insane equipment. A good Automatic Electric Gun (AEG) with all the essentials is probably around 300 USD, although much cheaper equip can be had. The ammo is crazy cheap tho, probably around 12 USD for 3000 bbs or more. A decent spring rifle with bolt action can be had for as low as 130 USD.

example of good AEG: http://www.cobraairsoft.com/images/AE-043-TM.jpg
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Old 10-12-2004, 10:12 AM   #45
Taliesin
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Re: Gun Control

Interesting Debate. I live in Nottingham UK where there has been yet another shooting. So I have been following this debate with great interest. For myself i have a few views.

1. Guns are made to fire bullets not stop them. (I do go with the if you have a hammer every
problem looks like a nail.)

2. The problem with lets call it legitimization of gun ownership. Here the problem is not the
responsible citizens, but all the others who think a gun in itself is a quick fix. I don't even think
that mandatory training is useful - here in the UK we have to have a driving test - but a huge
number of those who drive legally are dangerous drivers.

3. The greater number of guns and the lessening of restrictions simply means everyone has easier
access to guns. The good, the reckless, the bad, the psychotic.

4. Assuming that criminals want an 'edge' means that shooting someone rather than threatening
them is likely to become the preferred choice.

5. Violent crime in the UK. whether it is on the increase or not depends upon whether you are
more inclined to believe the British Crime Survey or Reported crime. After all an increase in
reported crime may be down to an increased willingness to report it. In any event most violent
crimes have more to do with alcohol than anything else (The Saturday Night Punch-up and
Glassing).

6. Sport - Shooting is not a Sport it may be a competition but it is not a sport. (Sport is where
heart and guts and sheer bloody minded determination to keep going when you have pushed
yourself to the limits can lead to triumph over more skilled opponents).

7. Killings/Murders As far as I can see most killings are not by career criminals but by ordinary
people who loose their temper and snap. I shudder to thing of the number of domestic violence
death if guns were legitimized in the UK

8. Liberty and Rights - A social contract argument we agree to give up some of our liberties in
exchange for a 'safer society' (Sound Familiar)

In additon to this last point I would say where the current society is about howit is OK to detain someone who might be a threat. Giving up something whose sole purspoe is to injure and kill is not an unreasonable one.
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Old 10-12-2004, 05:21 PM   #46
Shane Mokry
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Re: Gun Control

Mitch,

Your link didn't work. I was denied access.
I'm going to look at some of them. I may be able to gather up a game of tag in the off season on the hunting lease. that would be a lot of fun and some good training.

Thanks,
Shane
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Old 10-12-2004, 05:39 PM   #47
Shane Mokry
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Re: Gun Control

David,

Believe it or not I agree with alot of what you say. The one thing I do not agree with is giving up our only means to protect ourselves from a tyrannical government for a "safer society". I'll have to agree with Lan on that one. Once the government has its people completely disarmed it can pretty much do anything it wants. Including killing citizens for whatever reason. I've actually seen pictures of Nazi soldiers rounding up jews and their rifles were on safety or not even loaded. Some of those Jews may have been able to escape had they recognized the opportunity. It had been so long since any of the people living in Germany at the time had been allowed to own firearms they didn't even know how they operated.

Anyway, Thanks for the posts and keep them coming! I am learning alot about all points of view and also about what my own motivations are for being pro-gun.

Shane
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Old 10-12-2004, 07:47 PM   #48
Thomas Ambrose
 
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Re: Gun Control

Quote:
David Chalk wrote:
8. Liberty and Rights - A social contract argument we agree to give up some of our liberties in
exchange for a 'safer society' (Sound Familiar)

In additon to this last point I would say where the current society is about howit is OK to detain someone who might be a threat. Giving up something whose sole purspoe is to injure and kill is not an unreasonable one.
David, I respectfully disagree with you here. As Ben Franklin supposedely said "Anyone who gives up freedom for security deserves neither."

In a post Sept-11 world, the US government has taken steps in the name of security that have tread dangerously close to, if not outright taking away many civil liberties and rights. There is the increase in deportations of Arab-Americans, increases in detainment of the same group of people, and then god only knows what else in places like Guantanomo Bay. If one asks me, this is a step in the wrong direction. I am all for increasing law enforcement, and airline security, and the like, but on the other hand I do not want to cross the line of arbitrarily discriminating against individuals who have done no wrong.

I do fear that one day my government may go too far, and fall down that slippery slope. Any denial of the freedom of law-abiding citizens is a step in this direction, including banning weapons. Rather than an all out ban, why not simply increase law enforcement measures that people with a violent criminal record from owning weapons?

The only people in society who should lose their personal liberties are the criminals who do crime. Those who respect society and abide by laws should be allowed freedoms.
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Old 10-13-2004, 07:52 AM   #49
Taliesin
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Re: Gun Control

Shane

This is where background experience comes in. It is never a simple enough situation to say giving up freedoms for security deserves neither. I appreciate that your Constitution does, at least arguably, enshrine the right to bear arms, however for any society to exist there must be accepted limitations on freedom. Because the answer to does the end justify the means? is always what is the end and what are the means. Almost everybody in a civilized society had agreed in effect not to commit murderer.

The question is whether giving up your, arguable, constitutional right is justified is two fold. Would giving up your guns make society safer. personally i think so given that we have had only two 'shooting-spree type murders in Hungerford and Dunblain. So I think the biggest threat is not from the career criminals so much as the reckless, careless, stupid and those who just snap (AKA Going postal).

If the answer to this part is yes, which in my own opinion (and admitted as such!!) it is. There is a second question of whether it is proportionate and reasonable. Again I would say yes.

Admittedly in the UK we have a legal constitution base upon civil liberties rather than constitutional rights, so the argument that you are free to do whatever the law does not prevent you from doing is our yardstick. In America it appears to be more your constitution and it's interpretation.
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Old 10-13-2004, 07:55 AM   #50
dan guthrie
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Re: Gun Control

Just a historical note, in U.S. history, the original motivation for serious gun control was to keep recently freed blacks from getting them. It was conservatives, not liberals, behind segregation and gun control.
"Restricting Handguns, the liberal sceptics speak out," edited by Don B. Kates, jr. copyright 1979.
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