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Old 08-19-2004, 07:50 PM   #26
Infamousapa
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Re: Assaulted in a bar

Quote:
Bodhi Richards wrote:
I guess I've got to disagree with most of the folks commenting here. Hindsight indicates you did the right thing from the standpoint that no one was hurt badly etc. But when the bouncer placed his hands on you without provocation, you didn't know that's how it was going to turn out. You could have just as easily been seriously injured or killed. A guy "twice (your) size and probably on steroids" shoves you out of a bar, knocks you down, then puts his knee in your chest and you didn't resist at all? I would have feared for my life the moment he touched me, and acted accordingly. You put way too much faith in that guy's intentions and sense of mercy, especially when he had just proven that he was willing to attack you without provocation. It could've gotten you killed. I think deep down you know this, which is why you're questioning yourself now. If I were you, I'd resolve to never allow someone to threaten my safety again, and I'd be ready to argue this in court if it came to that. Better to be judged by twelve than carried by six.
EVERYONE SHOULD LISTEN TO THIS GUY..VERY WELL PUT..
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Old 08-19-2004, 08:33 PM   #27
MitchMZ
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Re: Assaulted in a bar

I think the "kill or be killed" mindset is a logical fallacy, and definitely not the aim of aikido. The aim of aikido is effective self defense without harming the attacker. But, I guess everyone has a different opinion of what self defense is. I think reading intent is important. If the attackers intent is to steal my wallet from me and apply a deadly atemi to him...thats totally ridiculous...and morally wrong. The mindset I have is reflective of the art I've chosen. An extremely defensive art like aikido is not for everyone. And, yes, I have used my martial arts knowledge in a street situation on two occassions and both happened in a split second with either the attacker laying a few feet in front of me or me on a mounted position on them. No harm done either time with the exception of a small bruise on the attacker.

Last edited by MitchMZ : 08-19-2004 at 08:42 PM.
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Old 08-19-2004, 09:09 PM   #28
Ian Williams
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Re: Assaulted in a bar

man assaulted in bar, police claim he's nuts..

Tsutsumi Ryu Jujitsu
Adelaide, South Australia

Te audire no possum. Musa sapientum fixa est in aure
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Old 08-19-2004, 10:51 PM   #29
disabledaccount
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Re: Assaulted in a bar

Quote:
Mitch Kuntz wrote:
I think the "kill or be killed" mindset is a logical fallacy, and definitely not the aim of aikido. The aim of aikido is effective self defense without harming the attacker. But, I guess everyone has a different opinion of what self defense is..
No one said the bouncer should have been killed, only that to go along with an attacker's efforts to harm you is a grave error. NOTHING in aikido's self-defense strategy suggests that you make no attempt to defend yourself when you are attacked.

Quote:
Mitch Kuntz wrote:
I think reading intent is important.
I agree whole heartidly. The point of this unfortunate story is that the guy didn't correctly read his opponent's intent. We could infer that the bouncer's intentions were to harm the man the moment he laid his hands on him. The bouncer's action following the grab (throwing him on the pavement and kneeling on his chest) further supports my position that he intended to harm his victim. These actions are considered assault and battery in most U.S. jurisdictions, and I'd wager they're illegal in Finland too.

In simplest terms, the refusal to acknowledge an aggressor's intention to do you harm is a dangerous, and possibly fatal mistake.

Last edited by disabledaccount : 08-19-2004 at 10:53 PM.
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Old 08-19-2004, 11:54 PM   #30
Chris Birke
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Re: Assaulted in a bar

"No one said the bouncer should have been killed, only that to go along with an attacker's efforts to harm you is a grave error."

No, I'm pretty sure that's wrong.

First, you don't win a fight with a bouncer at a bar.

Second, by this logic we should resist police, because they may be corrupt or psychopathic.

Resisting in this situation would most likely have been bad.
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Old 08-20-2004, 03:40 AM   #31
Luis Orozco
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Re: Assaulted in a bar

Thanks for the posts everyone, plenty of food for thought (or practise) here.

Aleksey gives another option that sounds pretty much like what I'd liked to do (but didn't think about).

Also Bodhi and Tony talk about what the intent was, and whether I read it right. I think you've got a valid point but in the end it did turn out alright. I'll give you another piece of information for your interpretation: after ending in the ground, I let go his shoulders (which I had grabbed to cushion my attempted ukemi) and smiled while he was looking at me (more of a "you've done what you wanted" rather than "I'm insane" kind of gesture). This made him let me go even as they continued abusing verbally of us.

I know for a fact that physical violence is not as common here as in my home country, so that added to my feeling of the situation then made me not expect any punches or further escalation if I didn't punch first (I also happen to use glasses). If this guy had done it, he'd be facing time in jail. As it stands, it seems that according to my lawyer, they'd be getting a fine and a revocation of the "bouncing license" of the involved individual (no results on this yet).

All in all, it seems to be fine, but I'll have to learn from this.

Thanks guys!
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Old 08-20-2004, 04:41 AM   #32
bogglefreak20
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Re: Assaulted in a bar

[quote=Luis Orozco] I'm not a violent person at all.
QUOTE]


Stay that way. And of course, keep training.
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Old 08-23-2004, 11:40 AM   #33
Cyrijl
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Re: Assaulted in a bar

1-I agree most with Dave's Original post. If oyu are drinking what appears to you to be normal is probably not viewed by others the same way.

2-
Quote:
The only thing that I would have done differently is to either tried to subtly get off line of the first attack or to have taken him into guard once it was obvious I was going down on my back
This answer is not good. Just because you take someone into your gueard does not protect you. If the bouncer was bigger he could still strike luiz from within the guard. Pulling guard, may have made the bouncer even more angry.

3-All of those ppl who say "talk calmly and etc." are out of their minds. For many cases, if the bouncer has decided to eject you, you go peacefully. It is hard to thorw someone if they are being cooperative and walking out the door. Plus even talking calmly can be looked at as being passive-agressive.

4-Aikido and capoiera---LOL. This guy would have ripped you apart. THAT IS HIS JOB. And like someone already said, he doesn't work alone.

The fact that no one got hurt and noone had to go to jail that night is a good thing. Be more careful next time and better aware of your surroundings. There is no way to tell what could have happened.

melior est canis vivus leone mortuo
Bog svsami!!!
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Old 08-23-2004, 02:05 PM   #34
disabledaccount
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Re: Assaulted in a bar

Quote:
Chris Birke wrote:
Second, by this logic we should resist police, because they may be corrupt or psychopathic.

Resisting in this situation would most likely have been bad.
Actually, a bouncer isn't a sworn officer acting in the public interest. He/she is a private security officer, most often not licensed as someone intimated, and is not authorized by law in most jurisdictions to lay hands on another unless the individual in question poses an imedeate physical danger to himself, the individual or a third party. Police officers are bound by the same convention with the additional right to use force if an individual resists arrest (see Tennessee v Garner, 471 U.S. 1, 105 S. Ct. 1694, 85 L.Ed. 2d 1 [1985]). According to our thread starter, these conditions were not met.

Quote:
Joseph Connolly wrote:
All of those ppl who say "talk calmly and etc." are out of their minds. For many cases, if the bouncer has decided to eject you, you go peacefully.
Once again, the bouncer would have been required by law to tell the patron to leave the premisis before resorting to physically man-handling the patron, even a police officer would have been bound to do the same. The bouncer, according to the victim did not meet this requirement, therefore I am suspicious of his intent.


Quote:
Joseph Connolly wrote:
The fact that no one got hurt and noone had to go to jail that night is a good thing.
In fact the victim stated that he had a mark on his chest and that it was sore. This constitutes an injury the last time I checked. Perhaps criminal charges are not in order with this situation, but the victim could certainly pose a decent case to bring a civil suit against the bouncer and the establishment he works for.
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Old 08-23-2004, 05:02 PM   #35
Chris Birke
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Re: Assaulted in a bar

My reason for not resisting police and bouncers has nothing to do with law and everything to do with odds. Odds of bad things happening in the course of resistence far outweigh the odds of bad things happening otherwise. Resisting the police (or bouncers) is almost always failure (for innumerable and clear reasons).

Moreover, the law only matters after the fact. Add to this you are quoting American laws to the matter of a Finnish bouncer, and you can begin to see their distance from the physical reality.

The present matter was, "would resistence have been better than complacency?" Given the enviorment, social customs, and odds, the answer is probably no. Given the average skill of middle weight drunken Aikidoist vs sober heavyweight Bouncer(s), the answer is still no. The results support this statement.

The patrons of the bar are also in on the matter. They have not looked up case histories on the internet, and feel that the bouncers are authoritiy figures within their rights at the bar. They feel, whoever you are, you probably deserve to get thrown out, and perhaps a light blow or two. If you were being severly beaten, they might come to your aid as your only realistic chance of salvation should things escalate.

If you put up much resistence (especially if you strike) they will happily sit by and watch you get beaten. In their minds, you clearly deserve it at that point. This is the law that matters most in the present situation, not the one in the books.

By not resisting, not only do you please the patrons and bar's sense of justice, you are right within American law too.

What would you have done in this case? Threatened to sue? Any other sort of resistence that comes to mind seems incredibly risky.

It may seem esoteric, but the best "resistence" in this case is passivity.
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Old 08-23-2004, 05:53 PM   #36
Street Fighter
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Re: Assaulted in a bar

I should probably add that had you gotten into a fight with this guy, had you been beaten up, had you both been arrested as usually happens when you decide to press charges, had you spent a few hours in a cell cooling down and feeling those bruises then been interviewed you would probably have been advised to drop charges or possibly you would have both gotten a legal slap on the wrists, prison for the bouncer I very much doubt it he'd probably be on the door the very next day whilst at best youd be nursing a briken nose/black eye. I love it when these guys (samurai jack for one) give it all the bravado when theyve probably pussied out many times themselves. On another note this demonstrated how groundwork is sadly neglected in aikido. Even six months in BJJ can help.
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Old 08-23-2004, 06:05 PM   #37
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Re: Assaulted in a bar


On the subject of reading intentions, are any of you lot mind readers? No your not. Luis my soundest advice is make up your own mind for next time you have a confrontation. My advice to you is if theres one guy giving you shit and hes got no friends around and no weapons fight, if theres two guys no friends hanging around and no weapons fight, if theres three or more pretend your dumb and walk off, if necessary run! you get no points for fighting and getting beaten up that kind of thing can stay with you and turn you into a violent psychopath , get some fighting experience if you must one on one and then you can graduate to two three four etcetera, id say fighting skills is 10 percent of it, heart and experience make up the rest. I know a lot of you are going to think what is this guy on just dont like to see bambi caught in the headlights.

Aikido is a martial art, ie fighting art, enough of this spiritual, what if, you could have done this business, get a black eye or two, experience the fear of losing your life and then come to this site and post what Luis should have done in that situation.
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Old 08-23-2004, 07:07 PM   #38
Zato Ichi
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Grr! Re: Assaulted in a bar

Luis, 20-20 hindsight and all that. You got out of the situation with some minor injuries. If you fell it's warranted to sue, go for it, but I wouldn't really question it at this point. As long as you learned something from this (i.e. taisabaki, my friend, taisabaki), just move on....

Quote:
Antonio Montana wrote:
My advice to you is if theres one guy giving you shit and hes got no friends around and no weapons fight, if theres two guys no friends hanging around and no weapons fight, if theres three or more pretend your dumb and walk off, if necessary run!
Antonio, aside from your first point being macho BS (go read No Nonsense Self Defense), your second point is libel to end up with the person getting beaten badly if they're lucky, being hospitalized or worse in all probability. A two on one fight is not a winning proposition for anyone. There are people out there who might be able to fend off two attackers, maybe you're one of them, but not only does that take some very intense specialized training, it also depends on your two opponents being total morons. And, as others have mentioned in far more detail than I could, there are serious repercussions for fighting, let alone starting a fight. AFAIK some punk talking trash does not constitute grounds for a beating.
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Old 08-23-2004, 10:33 PM   #39
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Re: Assaulted in a bar

I personally have fought three guys at once without anything more serious than a graze, this before I took up aikido, This type of thing is not uncommon its all about scaring the other guys and making them think your crazy, beleive me it works although not all the time. A friend of mine took on 15+ people some of which had weapons ie baseball bats etc, all he had was a chain with a padlock on the end, to make a long story short he took out the ringleader and chased the rest off once they saw the ringleaders bone sticking out of his arm. My point is you can beat the odds if you make people lose heart.

Not macho bullshit just fact. Police, bouncers, security staff all deal with being out numbered in fights, they only come out on top because they have heart. I dont care if your a black belt if you havent experienced the real thing you are liable to freeze when it does eventually happen.
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Old 08-23-2004, 10:51 PM   #40
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Re: Assaulted in a bar

Oh and another thing Hori, you dont learn about fighting in books, typical I read this book I read that book type warrior. Ill tell you what next time your in a fight get your, hang on im trying to suppress some laughter "no nonsense self defense" book and work out which defense is best for that right hook coming at your jaw.
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Old 08-23-2004, 11:10 PM   #41
PeterR
 
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Re: Assaulted in a bar

Quote:
Antonio Montana wrote:
Oh and another thing Hori, you dont learn about fighting in books, typical I read this book I read that book type warrior. Ill tell you what next time your in a fight get your, hang on im trying to suppress some laughter "no nonsense self defense" book and work out which defense is best for that right hook coming at your jaw.
A lot of incorrect assumptions about Hori-san.

One of the studpidest things I did in my life (long before Aikido) was take on two guys in the London Underground. I got the purse back with nothing more than a grazed knee and set of knuckles but what if????

20/20 hindsight tells me Hori-san and Mark "Animal" MacYoung are perfectly correct.

Hori-san

Will you be attending the special training session and the Sato party afterwards next Sunday and when will you come down to Himeji again.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 08-23-2004, 11:17 PM   #42
shihonage
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Re: Assaulted in a bar

When I was 15 I got into a fight with two guys, well, actually I thought it was one.
The other one ran out from behind, leaped onto my back, and the one in front of me drove into me at the same time, and in no time I was lying completely trapped on the ground while one of them sitting on me and punching me in the face repeatedly.

Mind you I was a complete tool back then, but still.
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Old 08-23-2004, 11:21 PM   #43
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Re: Assaulted in a bar

Quote:
Aleksey Sundeyev wrote:
Mind you I was a complete tool back then, but still.
Trying real hard to control my typing

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 08-23-2004, 11:24 PM   #44
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Re: Assaulted in a bar

I can see you still angry about that incident Aleksey, hence your into aikido. If you had your time again I can assure you you would not be all spiritual and "Ill only use the necessary force" nonsense.
Difficult to when youve been punched silly
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Old 08-23-2004, 11:32 PM   #45
shihonage
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Re: Assaulted in a bar

Quote:
Antonio Montana wrote:
I can see you still angry about that incident Aleksey, hence your into aikido. If you had your time again I can assure you you would not be all spiritual and "Ill only use the necessary force" nonsense.
Difficult to when youve been punched silly
Actually that was just one incident.
I was no "hardcore street thug", far from it, but before I reached 17 and migrated to United States, I've had the misfortune of being in a lot of scuffles with other wannabe tough guys from in our yard, school, etc.
I've been given several black eyes, kicked in the nuts, punched in the diaphragm, attacked by a gang (police showed up by the time the first few punches were thrown and I nearly peed my pants), and those profound memories has shaped me into the outstanding member of society I am today.
(/sarcasm)

Yes I think "only necessary force" is a silly idea in a situation when you are suddenly attacked and you don't know whether the person is on drugs or carrying a knife, etc.
In such a situation, closest weapon - closest target, if your elbow can reach his throat with the minimum time, so be it, if your fingers can be buried in his eyes, do it, don't stop, scratch the face, take his ears and smash his face on your knee, just dont stop, etc.

But a bouncer, inside a club, in front of witnesses and probably other bouncers, I think it would be relatively safe to assume that he isnt going to cross a certain limit if you dont give him a reason.
I don't think Luis should have engaged the bouncer, because nothing good would've come out of it, no matter the outcome.

Last edited by shihonage : 08-23-2004 at 11:34 PM.
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Old 08-23-2004, 11:53 PM   #46
Zato Ichi
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Re: Assaulted in a bar

Antonio, there's no point in arguing with you, so let me just say I'm happy for you that you're among the toughest men on the earth, and you're totally correct about me: I'm a little keyboard warrior who learns about fighting from books and I've never been in a fight in my life.

BTW you might want to actually take a look at that site: I'm just a shmuck on a message board, but Marc MacYoung is quite respected among cops, security professionals, and martial artists.

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote:
Will you be attending the special training session and the Sato party afterwards next Sunday and when will you come down to Himeji again.
I'll be there on Sunday... sounds like an interesting day Shihan has planned. Especially since it's appearantly being added to the official syllabus. I'm probably not sticking around afterwards though... I promised a friend I'd go watch his capoera grading demo. One thing I'll say about capoera (and at the risk of being totally sexist): a lot of cute women train in it

I'll try and get up to the the dojo next time you guys train on Sunday, as I'm pretty much much stuck working Saturday until the evening. I'll give you.a buzz when I'm gonna come down

Last edited by Zato Ichi : 08-23-2004 at 11:57 PM.
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Old 08-24-2004, 12:00 AM   #47
PeterR
 
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Re: Assaulted in a bar

Quote:
R. Haruo Hori wrote:
A I'm a little keyboard warrior
:cough:
Quote:
Especially since it's appearantly being added to the official syllabus.
Really?? How so?
Quote:
I'm probably not sticking around afterwards though... I promised a friend I'd go watch his capoera grading demo. One think I'll say about capoera (and at the risk of being totally sexist): a lot of cute women train in it
No kidding. I'm thinking of switching just for that.
Quote:
I'll try and get up to the the dojo next time you guys train on Sunday, as I'm pretty much much stuck working Saturday until the evening. I'll give you.a buzz when I'm gonna come down
Anytime. As before best if you crash at my place the night before.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 08-24-2004, 12:09 AM   #48
Zato Ichi
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Re: Assaulted in a bar

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote:
Really?? How so?
Well, take it with a grain of salt, as it's second hand information, but the kaeshi waza (sp?) is being added to the shodan syllbus starting next year. The rumor's been floating around honbu for a while, and appearantly that's why Shihan is holding the clinic this Sunday - to introduce the techniques to a wider audience.

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote:
No kidding. I'm thinking of switching just for that.
LOL!
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Old 08-24-2004, 12:31 AM   #49
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Re: Assaulted in a bar

Quote:
R. Haruo Hori wrote:
Well, take it with a grain of salt, as it's second hand information, but the kaeshi waza (sp?) is being added to the shodan syllbus starting next year. The rumor's been floating around honbu for a while, and appearantly that's why Shihan is holding the clinic this Sunday - to introduce the techniques to a wider audience.
Ah - you mean as opposed to Ikkyu. Wonder what will take its place. Just something more for you to worry about Bwahahahahahaha.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 08-24-2004, 12:40 AM   #50
Zato Ichi
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Re: Assaulted in a bar

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote:
Ah - you mean as opposed to Ikkyu. Wonder what will take its place. Just something more for you to worry about Bwahahahahahaha.
Nope... that was my first impression as well, but this is different than ikkyu's urawaza. I was watching a few of the higher levels practice, and Sakai sensei was demonstrating a few techniques to me after class one time. It's not entirely new, but it's not something I've seen regularly done in any of the normal practices....

And that's why I'm hoping Shihan let's me test before the end of the year... all I need is more techniques to worry about plus the pressure of the test itself
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