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Old 07-19-2004, 01:40 PM   #26
Ron Tisdale
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Re: ground fighting

Quote:
Also when people get thrown they often panic a grasp firmly to the person throwing them, this could put you in a dangerous ground situation as well.
When people do this during training it scares me a little...in trying to lessen the power of the throw and protect them I sometimes worry about falling on them. I'm usually pretty stable and don't have to worry about that, but...not always.

If someone should do that outside of training I think its time for a smile and a piledriver...

RT

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 07-19-2004, 02:01 PM   #27
NagaBaba
 
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Re: ground fighting

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
When people do this during training it scares me a little...
RT
Why not hit them with your body when landing? Strange thing, judo ppl do it all time. Seems working fine.
Please don't be so afraid

Nagababa

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Old 07-19-2004, 02:04 PM   #28
Ron Tisdale
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Re: ground fighting

Because in training the instructor hits me with a bokken when I do that!

Ron

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Old 07-19-2004, 02:06 PM   #29
paw
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Re: ground fighting

Quote:
Laurent Tambayong wrote:
Learning newaza is not that hard. There is a saying in Judo :"Newaza one year, nagewaza ten years."
I disagree. While current rule interpretation leaves little, if any, time for ne waza in judo shiai --- learn to turtle and defend for 30 seconds, and you'll be stood up --- and could be the basis of this statement, the situation determines the tactics. For example, in bjj where rules allow the entire match to take place on the ground it becomes clear that a good deal of training is needed.

In my neck of the woods, it will take much more than a year of working on just escapes to avoid being pinned (and then pounded) by a high school wrestler.


Quote:
Laurent Tambayong wrote:
The key in newaza for the attacker is to keep the condition static. The key for the defender is to keep the condition dynamic.
I disagree. As a general rule --- and this shows my bias towards bjj --- the key in ne waza is to establish a superior position. Once a superior position is established, keep a superior position. Flowing from one superior postion to another is perfectly fine...you don't have to hold one and only one position.

Quote:
Laurent Tambayong wrote:
One catch about newaza for Akidoka is that (pardon me) usually Aikidokas are not physically strong built. Newaza requires strong muscles, especially strong forearms.
The body becomes it's function. Like aikido, judo or bjj require a base level of fitness, but strength, much like technique is a learned skill. There's more to groundfighting than just who is the strongest.

Regards,

Paul
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Old 07-19-2004, 02:29 PM   #30
David Humm
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Re: ground fighting

I'm a former Prison Officer working within mainly Cat A (High Security) and SSU (Special Security Units) During the years I worked in these establishments, I can say with conviction (pardon the pun) that every fight I've either witnessed or had to get involved in as part of an intervention team, has always, quickly degenerated on to the ground.

The main reason why this is the case is a subconscious desire to gain advantage through physical control. This control cannot be achieved whilst standing, additionally, unless you know how to "handle" yourself, a standing fight is much harder to win. Our untrained natural defensive reaction is to stifle a potential assault by holding or grasping, this eventually ends up on the floor.

During my service I learned Aikido, not specifically because I was a Prison Officer but because I'd been introduced to it by a mate however, I have found it extremely useful in the course of my duties. Although having to be very careful not to be seen to be applying applications not "authorised" within a fairly strict 'Control and Restraint' policy, but, suwari waza has been invaluable in my abilities to stay in control when otherwise I'd be rolling about. Comments from my colleagues were testimony to this.

I can't say that I had a formulated "strategy" for dealing with ground fights other than to say, never let my opponent get on top, always be moving and ultimately get him face down and pinned ASAP.

Regards
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Old 07-19-2004, 02:37 PM   #31
Chris Birke
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Re: ground fighting

Ground fighting is excellent because of the way it is trained today. A year of modern groundfighting will forever change the way you look at all martial arts. Not because every fight goes to the ground, or even because the ground is a good place to be, but because of the way it's trained. Judo, BJJ, Sambo, Catch - whatever; if you can barely move after you're done you were learning a lot.

If you want to fight nhb in a ring or a cage, it is essential that you learn to fight on the ground. Same if you want to learn to attack (ie, army, bouncer or cop). Otherwise it questionable.

Full mount is when you are lying on your back and someone is straddled upon your chest (past your legs) where they can pummel you, and yet you cannot reach back.



The best escape (in my opinion) is laid out here.

As for the headlock, he probably means a "side headlock" or "scarf hold" which is the most common (as it's the natural progression from the exceedingly common standing side headlock). This is generally much harder to escape than mount and is often used in Judo as a 30 second pin.



There are many escapes, but they all generally involve the key concept of shoving your forearm under the other persons neck to make space.


Here's one.

Last edited by Chris Birke : 07-19-2004 at 02:42 PM. Reason: bad link
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Old 07-19-2004, 02:42 PM   #32
Ron Tisdale
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Re: ground fighting

What I like best about bjj is the way they train transitions...both transitions between positions and transition between techniques. I could use some more of that focus in my aikido.

Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 07-19-2004, 02:45 PM   #33
Chris Birke
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Re: ground fighting

"What I like best about bjj is the way they train transitions..."

What I like is that it is absolutely clear WHY you train transitions - most a fight is transitions from one failed technique to another until you finally succeed. Some people who don't train this often get the sense that knowing all the techniques is enough to actually use them.
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Old 07-19-2004, 03:08 PM   #34
Ron Tisdale
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Re: ground fighting

Good point...

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 07-19-2004, 06:10 PM   #35
Michael Neal
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Re: ground fighting

Quote:
Craig Hocker wrote:
yes, I am aware of all this Michael.

like I said we have strategies to prevent this.

you of course can play "what if?" all day.

Craig

This whole thread is about what if
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Old 07-20-2004, 01:02 AM   #36
Jorx
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Re: ground fighting

Quote:
Chris Birke wrote:
Ground fighting is excellent because of the way it is trained today. A year of modern groundfighting will forever change the way you look at all martial arts. Not because every fight goes to the ground, or even because the ground is a good place to be, but because of the way it's trained. Judo, BJJ, Sambo, Catch - whatever; if you can barely move after you're done you were learning a lot.

As for the headlock, he probably means a "side headlock" or "scarf hold" which is the most common (as it's the natural progression from the exceedingly common standing side headlock). This is generally much harder to escape than mount and is often used in Judo as a 30 second pin.
Word @ this training methods thing!

Just my 2 cents offtopic: Kesa-gatame is MUCH easier to escape than a good mount Quoting Lucio Linhares (bjj bb): Kesa-Gatame is paska (paska meaning shit in finnish).
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Old 07-20-2004, 01:15 AM   #37
Chris Birke
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Re: ground fighting

I always have good luck with it in attack and trouble in defending it; I should have added "for me" in there.

He surely knows something I don't =).

I remember the first time I saw Eddie Bravo play his half guard (before I'd never really considered half guard anything but an accident); to see him own his way to the mundials with the same halfguard to oldschool pass on every second opponent really made me rethink it =).

Then again, maybe I just have the pyoveli scarf hold.

Last edited by Chris Birke : 07-20-2004 at 01:21 AM. Reason: fun with finnish
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Old 07-20-2004, 12:47 PM   #38
Jorx
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Re: ground fighting

Quote:
Chris Birke wrote:
I always have good luck with it in attack and trouble in defending it; I should have added "for me" in there.
At first: to your "best" mount escape (the upa) there is an exellent contra. He grabs your arm, starts to bridge, slide the other leg to his head, put the shin over his face, let hime roll over and finish your face-down armbar Another thing is when opponent gets you crossfaced while in full mount then there is no way you can escape that way.

There are several ways of escaping the kesa-gatame scarfhold which working alltogether make it a very bad position to take afterall. Kesa-kuzure gatame the modified scarfhold is much better as it allows more movability. The escapes:
1. Taking the back with underhook (which you always have in kesa-gatame).
2. If the head is stuck throw your leg over his leg and crawl to top releasing your head by pressing onto his head - come to mount or back.
3. Bridge in and throw him across your chest.
4. If he posts the other hand for support on the ground to the other side of your head, grab the hand and feed it inbetween your legs - crucifix position.
5. Same as 4. goes for when he stretches your arm really up - you can feed it between your legs right away.
6. If you can post the elbow of the hand which is being pulled up onto the ground you can use it to support you stand sitting up and roll him to his back - end in sidemount.

These all six escapes wonderfully work together and at least I have been able to escape kesa gatame of guys about 30 pounds heavier than me. The trouble is noone smart enough doesn't take that hold nowadays

Little offshoot in groundfighting that was...

Anyhow... in the Open Discussion section of this forum under headline "Systema" Jason DeLucia posted some exerpts from Aikido book where guard and armbar are shown. Yet to me it makes no difference because nowadays this is not typically taught in any Aikido class AND the groundfighting and it's methods have really evolved during last 20-30 years.

So my personal smartass opinion is that proper bjj / submission wrestling will really improve your SD / fighting abilities no matter what level you currently are in aikido. And it's fun.
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Old 07-20-2004, 02:41 PM   #39
Chris Birke
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Re: ground fighting

First off, I'm ready to defend the upa escape - watch tons of groundfighting, what gets people out of the mount all the time? Upa!

That said, you'd have to assume I'm an idiot to think that knowing only one escape will get you out of most situations. How I usually escape mount is the upa, elbow, backdoor trinity of techniques. With the three of them it's very solid.

If you only know one, though, I think upa escape is the best to teach beginners, simply because the upa bridge alone is full of such crucial and yummy fundamental principle.

As for my scarf hold; I call anything remotely close to kesa-gatame scarf hold (for lack of more accurate terms). I'm sure mine falls under modified scarf something.

Firstly I never put an arm all the way behind their head in a headlock - that's ruinous; I just control the collar or back of the neck. The other key is to keep my hip under their shoulder and my head in good position. Lifting that shoulder makes a huge difference. From there I dominate the arm, work armlocks, chokes or transition into the mount (just switch the hips back) or head to head (come around).

No place is invincible (except maybe the sunk rear naked), but as I was saying about the halfguard, you can always be suprised by a slightly different incarnation of something that hadn't worked before.

(someone with ocd out there is just itching to post the counter to the rear naked now...)

Last edited by Chris Birke : 07-20-2004 at 02:44 PM. Reason: typos
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Old 07-20-2004, 02:50 PM   #40
Chris Birke
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Re: ground fighting

Looking at my post with the escapes, though, you're right. The scarfhold in the picture is the street thug one. That's IS a joke.

What I should have said was a GOOD scarfhold can be much harder to escape than mount.
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Old 07-20-2004, 06:03 PM   #41
Tharis
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An Invincible Position?

Quote:
Chris Birke wrote:
No place is invincible (except maybe the sunk rear naked), but as I was saying about the halfguard, you can always be suprised by a slightly different incarnation of something that hadn't worked before.

(someone with ocd out there is just itching to post the counter to the rear naked now...)

I won't argue, but I will ask a question. What is this "sunk rear naked" position? What makes it invincible?
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Old 07-21-2004, 01:36 AM   #42
Jorx
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Re: An Invincible Position?

Quote:
Thomas Harris wrote:
I won't argue, but I will ask a question. What is this "sunk rear naked" position? What makes it invincible?
The rear naked choke... that meanas that the choke is in place and your body is controlled with hooks... So you are about to pass out in 8 or so seconds while trying to escape
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Old 07-21-2004, 01:42 AM   #43
Jorx
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Re: ground fighting

Chirs I was by no means meaning to be disrespectful... what made me wiseass about those escapes was that the hold in pic was really the streethug / judo pin version...

And I do agree about all that upa being very essential and stuff... still a good mount is hard to escape...
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Old 07-21-2004, 02:29 AM   #44
Chris Birke
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Re: ground fighting

Oh I know Jorgen, no disrespect taken - I think we're totally in agreement, and even then I still enjoy a little bit of a disagreement anyway =).
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Old 07-21-2004, 04:13 AM   #45
Michael Cardwell
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Re: ground fighting

I have a question, why is there no ground fighting in Aikido? I know that O-sensei took Judo and Sumo wresting, so why is there no grappling at least? Just curious.
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Old 07-21-2004, 06:01 AM   #46
Jorx
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Re: ground fighting

Quote:
Jorgen Matsi wrote:
And I do agree about all that upa being very essential and stuff... still a good mount is hard to escape...
Then it's good... there is just this one thing which gives a new dimesion to every pin... CROSSFACE. Really hard to escape with anything else from being mounted than elbow'n'knee.

And don't come telling me that you've heard of the "kesa-gatame into crucifix position"-escape before my escapes post

Usually the modifed scarf we practice is that you take the underhook with other hand as well (instead of grabbing near the head or smth) and roll his shoulder back...
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Old 07-22-2004, 04:55 PM   #47
willy_lee
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Re: ground fighting

Quote:
Chris Birke wrote:
What I like is that it is absolutely clear WHY you train transitions - most a fight is transitions from one failed technique to another until you finally succeed.
What I find most interesting is that the transitions are trained systematically. Very chess-like -- and dynamic. New directions are explored, new tactics become the favored ones to beat another. This one is countered by this one, but sets up this variation. The old standard considered de rigeur 5 years ago is now too easy to beat, etc.

=wl

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Old 07-22-2004, 05:04 PM   #48
willy_lee
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Re: weapons and first strike

Quote:
Boon Soh wrote:
In any weoponmanship, the idea was the frist strike is all that was needed to finish your adversary.
I would disagree with this. In every system of (non-fantasy) weapons usage I've seen, there was never such an assumption. Assuming that the adversary was also armed , never, never act under the false confidence that a single strike would do the job. You might miss. Or your opponent might shrug it off.

Vorpal weapons are much rarer in real life

=wl

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Old 07-22-2004, 09:31 PM   #49
xuzen
 
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Re: weapons and first strike

Quote:
Willy Lee wrote:
I would disagree with this. In every system of (non-fantasy) weapons usage I've seen, there was never such an assumption. Assuming that the adversary was also armed , never, never act under the false confidence that a single strike would do the job. You might miss. Or your opponent might shrug it off.

Vorpal weapons are much rarer in real life

=wl
Dear Willy,

It was not an assumption, it was the underlying fundamental principle. For example In iaijutsu, the first cut is also the last cut. Again my emphasize, it is the fundamental principle not an assumption.

There are too many what ifs and what's not, the dynamics of human confrontation is too complex, we can discuss the dynamism until the cows come home, and not reaching any nearer to the goal wrt to real life confrontation. But the premise remains the same, the combat should ideally finish after the first strike (be it a weapon or empty handed). This allow one to move on to the next combantant and the next and next...

Truly,
Boon.

p/s sorry to other posters for diverting this thread to weapon discussion. Pls continue with the grappling discussion. I was just passing through.

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
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Old 07-28-2004, 05:24 AM   #50
Martin Ruedas
 
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Re: ground fighting

I think Aikido teaches us to be always on guard so that we won't end up fighting on the ground. I think we should be always be aware of our surroundings. It teaches us to be always in a stable position where we will not lose our balance.
fighting on ground only means we are not on a stable position anymore. And I think kneeling techniques is what should be done if ever we lose balance while we're standing. Just my opinion. be with you
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