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Old 06-03-2004, 11:55 AM   #26
James Giles
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Re: How do you counter this? (aikido & BJJ)

Quote:
James Giles wrote:
Once you get him off balance, and moving, I believe a nikkyo could be applied to his grip to get it off of you.
On second thought, considering uke is gripping with the pinky up, a sankyo may be a better option for getting him off of you.
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Old 06-03-2004, 12:03 PM   #27
bob_stra
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Re: How do you counter this? (aikido & BJJ)

Ray Kissane wrote:

> Ok how about this, when he pushes you grip his
> right wrist with your right hand.

Assuming I can get a hold of it. Much of his hand is burried in my gi. But ok.

> Place your left hand on his right elbow. Push up
> and over on the elbow causing the elbow to roll ?
> over so that it is upwards at the same time pivot to > the right on your left knee.

A good idea! What to do if he keeps his arm stiff / stops you from bending his elbow?

It's definitely worth a shot in combination with the many suggestions above.

My main problems when someone attacks like this are

(1) He's controling my neck, sometimes using the force of his pushing to turn my head away from that side.

(2) His wrist is not really open to attack - kinda stuck in my gi.

(3) As soon as you try to attack his elbow, he will counter it. You try and bend it, he will stiffen it, or will use your bending attempt, in combination with backwards motion, to drag you downwards.

You try and straighten it, and he will use the now straight arm to push you backwards. Or he may simple circle to one side. Remember, to grab like this, his arm is angled off a little to begin with. (Try it and see - it kinda looks like a overhand right (from boxing) frozen in mid flight)

I suppose you could try switching from one to the other, try and catch him out, but while your faffing around with that, he's attacking you.

Addendum: I also wanted to add that this has been an excellent thread, from my p.o.v. at least. So nice to see ideas being swapped here, as opposed to the usual thread drift we seem to spiral into

Last edited by bob_stra : 06-03-2004 at 12:09 PM.
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Old 06-03-2004, 12:38 PM   #28
Ray Kissane
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Re: How do you counter this? (aikido & BJJ)

Quote:
Bob Strahinjevich wrote:
Ray Kissane wrote:

> Ok how about this, when he pushes you grip his
> right wrist with your right hand.

Assuming I can get a hold of it. Much of his hand is burried in my gi. But ok.

My main problems when someone attacks like this are

(1) He's controling my neck, sometimes using the force of his pushing to turn my head away from that side.

(2) His wrist is not really open to attack - kinda stuck in my gi.

(3) As soon as you try to attack his elbow, he will counter it. You try and bend it, he will stiffen it, or will use your bending attempt, in combination with backwards motion, to drag you downwards.

We really are not trying to do any thing to the wrist, we are only trying to keep Uke from letting go and nage not having controll of Uke.

When Uke is keeping their arm stiff that is the reason that we push up and then over on the Elbow in order to turn it over. If their arm is so stiff that you can not get it to move then you have to take their balance and make them quit thinking about the arm, that is what the pivot helps to do. You may have to add a pull on the arm to help them to stop thinking about keeping the arm stiff. As you start to pull and they pull back on their arm then your left hand should immediately push down on the elbow and push it across the body.

When uke is pushing on your neck do not fight it, go with the direction they are pushing and use that pivot on the knee this will also help move the arm.


These are ideas to play with. It is hard to communicate both the attack that you are discribing and the counter type moves. Hopefully everyone is getting the same picture, maybe not.

Ray Kissane

Ray Kissane
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Old 06-03-2004, 12:41 PM   #29
James Giles
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Re: How do you counter this? (aikido & BJJ)

Quote:
Bob Strahinjevich wrote:
Addendum: I also wanted to add that this has been an excellent thread, from my p.o.v. at least. So nice to see ideas being swapped here, as opposed to the usual thread drift we seem to spiral into

I enjoyed it too Bob. Let us know if you figure out a good counter to that attack
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Old 06-03-2004, 01:08 PM   #30
James Giles
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Re: How do you counter this? (aikido & BJJ)

Quote:
Ray Kissane wrote:
These are ideas to play with. It is hard to communicate both the attack that you are discribing and the counter type moves. Hopefully everyone is getting the same picture, maybe not.
Ray Kissane
That sounds like an effective counter to me Ray!
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Old 06-03-2004, 01:14 PM   #31
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Re: How do you counter this? (aikido & BJJ)

Ok, so if you pull back he pushes you over...right? If you are up on your toes as he pushes you pull him even faster into you and shoot your feet out from under you and into his stomach then keep going over and flip him ala Captain Kirk

If his right hand is grabbing your left lapel in a pinky up grip...hmm. Could you lock his hand/wrist down to your chest with your right hand then drop your left elbow over his (your left arm bent)? If you can get your elbow over his you may be able to use a rotation of your hips to get his elbow bent which would give you a nikyo thingy.

Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
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Old 06-03-2004, 01:28 PM   #32
willy_lee
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Re: How do you counter this? (aikido & BJJ)

Quote:
Bronson Diffin wrote:
Ok, so if you pull back he pushes you over...right? If you are up on your toes as he pushes you pull him even faster into you and shoot your feet out from under you and into his stomach then keep going over and flip him ala Captain Kirk
I was thinking about this too, but I thought it might be tough to get your feet under both of you fast enough, especially given you're kneeling. From standing it would be a lot easier to do that.

Quote:
If you can get your elbow over his you may be able to use a rotation of your hips to get his elbow bent which would give you a nikyo thingy.
Good point about using the hips!

Another thing I was mulling Bob, how about winding your arm into his to go for back of collar or underhook? I'm going on the thought that maybe you can get in a position such that if he face plants you, you force him to go with you, at least a little, giving you a chance to work something. And with the winding maybe you get a little leverage against the elbow too.

=wl

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Old 06-03-2004, 03:19 PM   #33
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Re: How do you counter this? (aikido & BJJ)

Quote:
Bob Strahinjevich wrote:
My main problems when someone attacks like this are

(1) He's controling my neck, sometimes using the force of his pushing to turn my head away from that side.

(2) His wrist is not really open to attack - kinda stuck in my gi.

(3) As soon as you try to attack his elbow, he will counter it. You try and bend it, he will stiffen it, or will use your bending attempt, in combination with backwards motion, to drag you downwards.
Technical explanatios are always very difficult by internet.

Using his force against him means in this case using his strong grip and stiff arm against him. You may try this: let him very stong grip, then turn around his stucked wrist, your extended arm, wide large mouvement, as you usually do it for warmup, around your shoulder. the same time push you body little bit forward(he will try to push back), to use stifness in his arm, this way he will have more difficulty to relase a grip.

Your large movement must be very fast -- you can injure his wrist, that in friendly sparring isn't nice, but he makes situation very difficult for you.
Depending how you turn your arm(down - up -- down) starting foreward or backward, his arm may bend or only turn, but his posture will be broken. Next thing is to maintain off balance by changing distance and if possible make a lock. Changing distance is often done in the same time as turning your arm, can be foreward or backward. Changing distans may be done only with twisting hips, without actually moving.
**********************************************************

Another possibility, is, you must constantly move BEFORE contact, just like o boxers. You must be always just a bit out his range to force him give a bit his balance. and when he go (or jump) foreward, you go forward also, with all your speed to meet him. Like you want to hit center of his body with your body. That should change a bit your relationship, and let you find opening in his attack.

Nagababa

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Old 06-04-2004, 04:01 AM   #34
Jorx
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Re: How do you counter this? (aikido & BJJ)

I guess some of you are totally missing the point.
The point is not HOW he grabs but from the moment he has the hold he is not any more giving ANY commitment to this attack but rather reacting to our fellow Aikidoka practioners moves. And that's the point where most of Aikidoka are... screwed.

Don't dream about fancy wristlocks from here or there. I think you have two possibilities:
ONE: Try react the aiki-way and try to capture his movement beforehand.
TWO: Let him get the hold, forget about Aikido techniques and do some proper grappling with proper resistance and fighting on both sides.
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Old 06-04-2004, 06:59 AM   #35
jxa127
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Re: How do you counter this? (aikido & BJJ)

Okay, here's what worked for us last night. For starters, as the grabber, things worked just like Bob described -- both when I was grabbing and when my partner was grabbing.

Here's the counter I tried: I'm being grabbed on my right lapel, under the colar bone by my partner's right hand. I reach up with my right hand and trap his hand in its current position. I fade back to my left and turn my hips (and shoulders) to the right. This forces a bend in my partner's elbow to his left. I then open my hips to his right and do something that resembles a kotegeiashi. My partner ends up on his back. This is all done with both of us kneeling.

It worked both ways, with me grabbing and being grabbed.

Now the caveat: neither of us have ever studied BJJ, so your results may vary. [] It was an interesting exercise, Bob. Thanks.

Regards,

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Old 06-04-2004, 08:22 AM   #36
Bronson
 
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Re: How do you counter this? (aikido & BJJ)

Quote:
Drew Ames wrote:
I'm being grabbed on my right lapel, under the colar bone by my partner's right hand.
Quote:
bob_stra wrote:
Take your right hand and insert it into his left lapel...
But you had a different attack.

Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
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Old 06-04-2004, 08:52 AM   #37
jxa127
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Re: How do you counter this? (aikido & BJJ)

My mistake. That should have read, "I'm being grabbed on my left lapel,under the colar bone, by my partner's right hand." IOW, grabbing across the body. We did it as Bob described.

So, I reach up with my left hand and fade back to the right. This forces a bend in the elbow to the right. Then I open to the left and throw kotegaeshi.

Jeez, this is hard; describing things on the web. Stop by, and I'll show you what I mean. []

Regards,

Last edited by jxa127 : 06-04-2004 at 08:55 AM. Reason: For clarity.

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Old 06-04-2004, 10:26 AM   #38
bob_stra
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Re: How do you counter this? (aikido & BJJ)

Hi Drew

Interesting! I will see if I can't apply some of that.

Much appreciate your help.

> Jeez, this is hard; describing things on the web.
> Stop by, and I'll show you what I mean.

Man, I wish digital cameras were more prevalent ;-(

I would love to show you all this technique (and to see Drew's counter) just so that we're all on the same page.

Like I said at the start - highly artificial scenario, but interesting none the less. Uniquely in the domain of Aikido.

Wonderful how things cross over, no?

Last edited by bob_stra : 06-04-2004 at 10:31 AM.
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Old 06-04-2004, 01:57 PM   #39
Aristeia
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Re: How do you counter this? (aikido & BJJ)

Quote:
Bob Strahinjevich wrote:
Assuming I can get a hold of it. Much of his hand is burried in my gi. But ok.
Hey Bob
There's your answer. As he sets up the grip distract him by grabbing his sleeve with one hand making him think you are trying to dislodge the arm. This is of course a feint. With your other hand quickly undo and divest yourself of your obi. You need to practice spinning and shrugging off your gi quickly (pre training application of baby oil may help here). Now he is facing a much more fearsome adversary - nearly nude bob.

Seriously though, I've been offline for a while, have you gotten any input from Frank or Bill on RMA?

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 06-04-2004, 02:01 PM   #40
Aristeia
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Re: How do you counter this? (aikido & BJJ)

Quote:
David Curran wrote:
Not really related but I'd be interested has anyone else had odd experiences using aikido techniques against a Bjj'er on the ground.
Sumi otoshi type thinking is useful when starting from the knees to get some people down (ok, mostly newbies - but then newbies are pretty much all I have success with in BJJ anyways).
I've gotten ikkyo on someone before but was then too slow to capitalise on it. And kote gaeshi once - same night I actually put someone to sleep- qualified as the best training ever.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 06-04-2004, 02:10 PM   #41
Ron Tisdale
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Re: How do you counter this? (aikido & BJJ)

Quote:
I've gotten ikkyo on someone before but was then too slow to capitalise on it.
If you can get even the first half of ikkyo on someone (before the pin) there are a host of things you can do. The most usefull in a BJJ context is hiji shime. There are some threads out there on this technique, it works standing, kneeling, and otherwise... Especially if he grabs pinky up!

RT

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Old 06-04-2004, 03:07 PM   #42
Aristeia
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Re: How do you counter this? (aikido & BJJ)

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
If you can get even the first half of ikkyo on someone (before the pin) there are a host of things you can do. The most usefull in a BJJ context is hiji shime. There are some threads out there on this technique, it works standing, kneeling, and otherwise... Especially if he grabs pinky up!

RT
Yeah, even the fact that i was affecting his balance rather than him choking the life out of me was a positive.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 06-05-2004, 03:54 AM   #43
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Re: How do you counter this? (aikido & BJJ)

Michael Fooks wrote:

> Hey Bob

Hey there stranger :-) I hope you've been saving your pennies ;-)

How go things in the land of the long white cloud?

> There's your answer. As he sets up the grip
> distract him by grabbing his sleeve with one hand > making him think you are trying to dislodge the
>arm.

I hadn't thought to do that (pull his sleeve down). I've just been trying to hammer his hand off in combination with a quick knee spin.

> Now he is facing a much more fearsome
> adversary - nearly nude bob.

All joking aside, I got so fed up with this crap that at one point I undid my gi, shrugged that lapel off and wrapped it around his hand. Then I dragged him around with that for a while, took the other side of my gi and threw it over his head, in true hockey style. To top it off, I choked him with my belt. R.m.a. would be proud!

Wurkd gud :-)

Once :-(

> Seriously though, I've been offline for a while,
> have you gotten any input from Frank or Bill on
> RMA?

Yeah - Trav and the guys have been giving me the BJJ perspective. Mostly I've been moaning abt side control escapes / mental conditioning over at RMA.

( Post a controversial thread title and you get results over there. Never fails :-)

Lots of good stuff to try now. Ain't the net grand?
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Old 06-05-2004, 04:10 AM   #44
bob_stra
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Re: How do you counter this? (aikido & BJJ)

David Curran wrote:

> Not really related but I'd be interested has anyone > else had odd experiences using aikido techniques > against a Bjj'er on the ground.

Sure...though my terminology might not make sense.

Wristlock when he resists juji gatame by grabbing his other wrist

From mount: He protects his neck against a choke, I grab his arm and figure four it, then stand up. Wristlock. If he resists, spinning armlock.

From kesa: Switch thru to side triangle, if he reists pull trapped arm down for kimura, if he resists that, wrist lock him.

Entagled arm throw when he's stupid enough to try a lapel choke while we're both on the knees.

Various grip escapes from wrestling tie ups etc.

FWIW - anytime you win by a wristlock, you have to yell out "AiKiDo WinS! SuckA !! )

(Maybe Micheal can give the proper aikido name for these wristlocks. They're kinda like a modified kote gashi)

IOW - most aikido stuff works, but you better be able to back them up with solid ground grappling if things go wrong. Plus know how they fit into the grand scheme of things.
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Old 06-05-2004, 05:01 AM   #45
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Re: How do you counter this? (aikido & BJJ)

Thanks for the replies.
I should point out that in the ocean of aikido i'm sitting in the harbour, so when i said that techniques don't work i meant I can't do them which are very different things.
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Old 06-06-2004, 02:42 PM   #46
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Re: How do you counter this? (aikido & BJJ)

Word @bob... But these wristlocks aren't anything Aikido-invented.
BTW... the only wristlock I've been able to do is gokyo. It's very hard to do nikyo or sankyo on ground or from guard 'cause you don't have such base as in tachiwaza.
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Old 06-07-2004, 03:57 AM   #47
Aristeia
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Re: How do you counter this? (aikido & BJJ)

Quote:
Bob Strahinjevich wrote:
Michael Fooks wrote:

> Hey Bob

Hey there stranger :-) I hope you've been saving your pennies ;-)

How go things in the land of the long white cloud?
after my wife's 30th party on the weekend the pennies somewhat declineth, but rest assured there are some tucked away. And for what it's worth, arm barring someone on the dancefloor may seem like a great idea after 3 or 4 hours of drinking but in the morning you realise it's just silly.
Quote:



All joking aside, I got so fed up with this crap that at one point I undid my gi, shrugged that lapel off and wrapped it around his hand. Then I dragged him around with that for a while, took the other side of my gi and threw it over his head, in true hockey style. To top it off, I choked him with my belt. R.m.a. would be proud!

Wurkd gud :-)
now that sounds like the beans.
Quote:
Once :-(
Ain't that always the problem. Particularly when you go aikido on their ass.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 06-07-2004, 04:03 AM   #48
Aristeia
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Re: How do you counter this? (aikido & BJJ)

Quote:
Bob Strahinjevich wrote:
David Curran wrote:

(Maybe Micheal can give the proper aikido name for these wristlocks. They're kinda like a modified kote gashi)

IOW - most aikido stuff works, but you better be able to back them up with solid ground grappling if things go wrong. Plus know how they fit into the grand scheme of things.
If it's the one I'm thinking of I'd call it gokyo. Even the gokyo probably more accurately describes the take down and arm control aspect of the technique, the attack on the wrist is what's found in the pin (ie hand going directly back towards the arm as opposed to the twist you would see in kote gaeshii or nikyo)

I've found aikido stuff can work but often not twice with the same technique on the same guy. It's much harder to work into a position where the technique becomes inevitabe than it is with say BJJ techniques on the ground. All though the figure four wristlock is nice (and a nice way of avoiding going for the full armbar if you have concerns about leaving yourself prone on the mat)
Also I find if you're starting from the knees and bust out some spinning shikko and some yoko ukemi around them, at least they say "wow" before making you tap like a red headed stepchild.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 06-07-2004, 04:05 AM   #49
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Re: How do you counter this? (aikido & BJJ)

Quote:
Jorgen Matsi wrote:
Word @bob... But these wristlocks aren't anything Aikido-invented.
BTW... the only wristlock I've been able to do is gokyo. It's very hard to do nikyo or sankyo on ground or from guard 'cause you don't have such base as in tachiwaza.
actually I have done nikkyo a couple of times. You're going for a fall back arm bar, they escape by turning away, popping the shoulder through and sitting up into your guard. If you keep the arm on your chest during the escape they end up in perfect position for a nikyo.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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