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Old 05-05-2004, 12:44 PM   #26
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Too many aiki-fruities?

I came from a very, very hard/rigourous karate background prior to study aikido. Did the no holds barred thing a few times. Also graduated from Army Ranger School two weeks prior to my first Aikido class so culturally it was a huge adjustment for me. That was 8 years ago.

I can certainly appreciate you comments regarding aiki fruitie types since I too was very critical of many I studied with.

Where am I today?

After 8 years of Aikido and going on 40 years old... I am still in the Arrmy as training infantry troops for combat. I teach army combatives in my unit on occasion. Train with firearms, jump out of airplanes, do air assaults and all that macho stuff.

I am also a buddhist, vegetarian, and raise my son to not watch tv and violence, he does not play with guns or play "army" or with tanks. I eat tofu about 3 times a week and mostly all organic foods. We have no chemical cleaners of any kind in the house and try and not harm anything that is living. So I quess I also qualify as a fruitie type!

I attribute most of this to the people, the awareness, and "ki" that I have learned through my aikido practice. I learned that there is room for all things, even the seemingly duality of my job and my personal life...they can co-exsist. I guess this qualifies as personal growth.

Probably the biggest thing I have learned is that the dojo is full of people that come from all walks of life, perspectives, abilities, and goals. I no longer really concern myself with being critical over the attack or lack thereof of my partner, only how I am able to work with them. The "fruitiness" that you describe, to me, is not so much a "problem" as it is a challenge for me to work with.

I think when you concern yourself with someone's attitude and become critical of them, that it is because you are focusing on yourself and what you are getting out of the relationship....not with what you have to offer to the relationship. Once I started figuring out that aikido was a two way street and stopped worrying about what I was getting and started focusing on the giving...the fruti issue kinda didn't matter much anymore. Which I think is the point of aikido from my view.

So when I work with some people doing BJJ or the hardcore stuff, I give it back as hard as I can. When I am working with the so called harmony/peace crowd I blend and move gracefully. There is something to be said for both sides of the coin.
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Old 05-05-2004, 01:38 PM   #27
Sue Trinidad
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Re: Too many aiki-fruities?

I'm brand new, so I may be way off base here. . . but what attracted me to aikido was that it seemed to combine the physical training and the spiritual training/mental discipline.

I'm going to be really disappointed if I've misunderstood this!
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Old 05-05-2004, 01:41 PM   #28
shihonage
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Re: Too many aiki-fruities?

Quote:
PeaceHeather wrote:
I must not understand... earlier in this thread, I got the idea that an "aiki-fruit", rather than being a refreshing snack for martial artists as I'd originally thought, was someone who only attended aikido lessons for what they perceived to be the spiritual and/or ki side of things.

Then someone else posted that suggestion, and you said no.
I don't recall saying "no" to such a definition.

Quote:
Sue Trinidad wrote:
I'm brand new, so I may be way off base here. . . but what attracted me to aikido was that it seemed to combine the physical training and the spiritual training/mental discipline.

I'm going to be really disappointed if I've misunderstood this!
You didn't misunderstand.

Last edited by shihonage : 05-05-2004 at 01:48 PM.
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Old 05-05-2004, 02:08 PM   #29
PeaceHeather
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Re: Too many aiki-fruities?

Okay... so, if I understand that your definition of an aiki-fruit (still hung up on the snack image) is someone who only comes in for the spiritual practice... well, I don't understand why that's wrong, if in fact you're saying that it is wrong.

To clarify a bit, I'll perform the techniques, and I'll do my best to perform them well if for no other reason than that my partner needs that from me. But my first priority, if I had to make a list, would be on ki/mental training, then learning how to not hurt myself or my partner, and then the finer points of technique.

Are there people who show up to dojo and don't do anything physical?

Still just trying to figure things out...
Heather

Last edited by PeaceHeather : 05-05-2004 at 02:12 PM.
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Old 05-05-2004, 02:13 PM   #30
MitchMZ
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Re: Too many aiki-fruities?

I think I really agree with Kevin on this one. What is difficult about everything (including martial arts), is that any one thing can be viewed in a thousand different ways. I think the best way to go about it is to not criticize someone's way of practice or views but to go along with it instead. AKA: If they go hard you go hard, if they are soft you are soft. Just like Kevin said. Learning can be had from both sides of the spectrum.
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Old 05-05-2004, 02:25 PM   #31
GaiaM
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Re: Too many aiki-fruities?

I really appreciated Kevin's post... It is great to know that there are people like you even in the military!
I absolutely agree with everyone who has said that spending energy judging your training partners and wishing they would change is not the most productive response. I don't think of myself as an "aiki-fuitie" - my spiritual belief about aikido is simple: if I train hard and with focus and joy i will enjoy my practice and learn quickly. I don't like to dwell on discussing this - I'd rather train. I find that if I focus on my own energy I can influence people to meet me half-way, and even influence the feeling of the whole class through my enthusiasm and focus.
So I suggest that instead of complaining about "aiki-fruitcakes" you focus on your own energy (whatever that may be). If it is a positive energy, others will follow your lead.
Hope that makes sense,
Gaia

___________
Gaia Marrs
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Old 05-05-2004, 02:31 PM   #32
PeaceHeather
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Re: Too many aiki-fruities?

I still think aiki-fruit should be the name of a refreshing snack for martial artists. But then, I probably am one, so that's probably why.

Heather, looking around for vending machine
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Old 05-05-2004, 02:41 PM   #33
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Too many aiki-fruities?

i always picture them coming in the little gummi bear fruit packets in assorted colors and shapes.
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Old 05-05-2004, 02:46 PM   #34
PeaceHeather
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Re: Too many aiki-fruities?

YES!! Me too! That is so weird.
I want the blue ones.

Heather
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Old 05-05-2004, 02:47 PM   #35
Doka
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Re: Too many aiki-fruities?

Quote:
Fausto wrote:
Mmmmmm, if you are talking about people who throw uke without touching them or uke who do all by themselves...... you are totally right! even if, you do correctly the technique (with atemi) you can throw someone withot touching him because uke should throw himself to avoid a broken nose.
No no no no no! If you don't touch them you don't throw them! If they fall over, then they simply fall over! If they throw themself, then they (not you) throw themself!

Quote:
Fausto wrote:
But unfortunantly, from my personal point of view, there some aiki folks that do aki-ballet.
Yep, usually doing ki exercises and telling how they do no touch (don't exist) throws!

Quote:
Fausto wrote:
As far as the spiritual issue, well it is a very important aspect of aikido, if you don't no nothing about it you are not doing aikido..... that's how I thing hehehe.
So you think that Yoshinkan Soke Gozo Shioda Sensei did not do Aikido? Kancho described ki as mastering Uke's balance (and your own), not spiritual mumbo jumbo!
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Old 05-05-2004, 02:54 PM   #36
Chad Sloman
 
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Re: Too many aiki-fruities?

I believe Ledyard Sensei was talking about the systema demo at the last aiki expo where the systema sensei had his uke attack him and he landed atemi to his face knocking him down, then the second time he had him attack and again the sensei landed atemi to his face and knocked him down, then the third time the sensei went to apply the atemi and the uke fell down without touching him. Who threw who? Is this a weak technique? Are these examples of "aiki-fruities"? I don't think so.

A real man does not think of victory or defeat. He plunges recklessly towards an irrational death. By doing this, you will awaken from your dreams.
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Old 05-05-2004, 06:15 PM   #37
Fausto
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Re: Too many aiki-fruities?

Mark, you disagree with me, and I disagree with you that's obvious.

First. If you train with Antonio D'Elia Sensei, after he hits your nose BADLY for a couple of times belive me you will take Ukemi to avoid the hit so..... if Tori forces you to throw yourself, because if you don't do that he will hit you strong enough to put your lights out, you WILL take ukemi even if he do not touches you... that's the only kind of "no touch" throws that I belive in, I don't belive in somethings that some so called aikido teachers do or teach such as "Oh my good Sensei is looking at me I must throw myself! or "I must throw myself in this technique because Sensei told me to do so in this technique" or "Even if I'm not forced to take ukemi i must take it"

Two. I know that was Shioda Sensei was doing was Aikido we all know that O'Sensei gave him 9°Dan!!!.... what I was talking about is that Aikido is based on two things Daito Ryu and the Omoto Religion.... so, even if for non japanese people is difficult to understand that philosophy unless you are not into it, the spiritual side of aikido is as important as the "physical" part.... AIKIDO is not a sport, sports have no philosophy aikido has it and that's why it is not a sport, even if a Sensei does not teach anything spiritual if he is against competition he is teaching his students a little bit of the spiritual side of aikido...... THAT IT'S JUST AN EXAMPLE OK!, so please don't tell me that I'm saying that the Tomiki Style it's just a sport because it's not maybe they don't have that side of the spirit of aikido but I'm sure they have others.

You are right in one thing, Ki is masternig uke's balance and oneself but.... ki is also the "breath that gives life".... that does not mean that I belive that you can throw someone with "The Ki that comes out of you body"

Just my 2 cents.
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Old 05-05-2004, 08:37 PM   #38
PeaceHeather
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Re: Too many aiki-fruities?

For what it's worth, I've worked with ki for longer than I've done martial arts. I've seen judicious application of ki do some amazing things, primarily in the healing disciplines. I'm in no position to judge whether you can throw someone without touching them, but some of the things I've seen suggest that it could be possible.

Again, just my opinion, for what it's worth.
Heather
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Old 05-05-2004, 08:59 PM   #39
Bronson
 
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Re: Too many aiki-fruities?

Quote:
Fausto wrote:
...you can throw someone with "The Ki that comes out of you body"
I work on corporate jets for a living. There are often several of us trying to work in tight cramped conditions. Many times I or some one else has had something come out of their bodies that "threw" the rest out of the plane

Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
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Old 05-06-2004, 12:23 AM   #40
James Giles
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Re: Too many aiki-fruities?

Quote:
Doka wrote:
No no no no no! If you don't touch them you don't throw them! If they fall over, then they simply fall over! If they throw themself, then they (not you) throw themself!!
Isn't that the point of Aikido? Take uke's energy and simply redirect it so that it is used against them?



Quote:
Doka wrote:
So you think that Yoshinkan Soke Gozo Shioda Sensei did not do Aikido? Kancho described ki as mastering Uke's balance (and your own), not spiritual mumbo jumbo!
The spiritual mumbo jumbo allows one to defeat his/her thoughts and achieve a state of no mind. In the state of nothingness there are no thoughts of "which technique am I going to use in this situation etc.?" One just moves with the energy and lets uke defeat himself. OSensei's art moved from very hard in the beginning (Gozo Shioda style) to very soft toward the latter part of his life. Why waste energy if you don't need to? Whether or not uke throws himself, or you throw him should not matter. What matters is that he is on the ground and he did not harm you. Just my opinion.
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Old 05-06-2004, 12:58 AM   #41
James Giles
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Re: Too many aiki-fruities?

Quote:
Sue Trinidad wrote:
I'm brand new, so I may be way off base here. . . but what attracted me to aikido was that it seemed to combine the physical training and the spiritual training/mental discipline.
I'm going to be really disappointed if I've misunderstood this!
From what I understand, it depends on your particular dojo. Even dojos in the same affiliation can be vastly different on this matter. I am in an ASU school and I am lucky enough to have a Sensei that emphasizes a healthy balance of spiritual/mental/ki training with the techniques (kihon waza).

The cool thing about the spiritual training, is that no one can immobilize or harm you if you are not there. Very neat stuff!

But even if your school doesn't emphasize this, you can probably pick up on it if you seek it out. No need to be disappointed, Aikido is just what you thought it was.

Last edited by James Giles : 05-06-2004 at 01:11 AM.
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Old 05-06-2004, 02:11 AM   #42
batemanb
 
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Re: Too many aiki-fruities?

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt. wrote:

Probably the biggest thing I have learned is that the dojo is full of people that come from all walks of life, perspectives, abilities, and goals. I no longer really concern myself with being critical over the attack or lack thereof of my partner, only how I am able to work with them. The "fruitiness" that you describe, to me, is not so much a "problem" as it is a challenge for me to work with.

I think when you concern yourself with someone's attitude and become critical of them, that it is because you are focusing on yourself and what you are getting out of the relationship....not with what you have to offer to the relationship. Once I started figuring out that aikido was a two way street and stopped worrying about what I was getting and started focusing on the giving...the fruti issue kinda didn't matter much anymore. Which I think is the point of aikido from my view.

I wish I had written that.

If you find something you dislike, take a long hard look at it, it is more often a reflection of the same trait you will find in yourself. Learn to work with what you have, good and bad, it may take time but will all help to improve your aiki.

rgds


Bryan

A difficult problem is easily solved by asking yourself the question, "Just how would the Lone Ranger handle this?"
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Old 05-06-2004, 02:14 AM   #43
DanD
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Re: Too many aiki-fruities?

Quote:
shihonage wrote:
Nathan, you appear to be unable to distinguish between softness and ineffectiveness.
You put a mishmash of unrelated things into one mumble-jumble of a post, which lacks any semblance of continuity, sense, or point.

Arguing with you would be like trying to explain to a small child why he can't shoot an arrow into the sun. Children still live in their dreams.
.
Sundeyev, you're definitely in the wrong art. Your violent wisdom is flowing from thread to thread....and you even didn't use "nuke" yet. A bit of the spiritual fruity stuff might balance your language. Give us a break..
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Old 05-06-2004, 03:50 AM   #44
happysod
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Re: Too many aiki-fruities?

I've actually got no problem with aiki-fruities, which is probably just as well considering I'm in a Ki assoc, or the "hard men/women" of aikido as long as they're honest with themselves on what they're practicing. Where I do have a problem is when their expressed interests diverge from how they're willing to train.

For the aiki-fruities, the assumption that you can go from ground zero victim status to calm master of self defence without going through hard training, pain and an understanding of not only how to deal with aggression but also how to be aggressive is annoying to say the least.

The flip side of the coin is the "hardcore" who expresses an interest in blending and diminishing conflict while practicing every technique with a view to kill (been guilty of this one, although I was more soft core trying to be hardcore, got the mix wrong)

For me, its like food - too much of the sweet stuff (aiki-fruities) is bad for you, too much hardcore muesli is boring and gets you down, just find the diet that suits you.

OT. Aleksey, nice to see you back on form
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Old 05-06-2004, 11:38 AM   #45
Chris Birke
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Re: Too many aiki-fruities?

"Sundeyev, you're definitely in the wrong art. Your violent wisdom is flowing from thread to thread...."

Perhaps then, he is in the perfect art?
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Old 05-06-2004, 12:10 PM   #46
Nick P.
 
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Re: Too many aiki-fruities?

<Must...fight...urge..to...ask...oh no!>

Why CAN'T you shoot an arrow into the sun?
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Old 05-06-2004, 03:16 PM   #47
Bronson
 
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Re: Too many aiki-fruities?

Quote:
Nick P. wrote:
Why CAN'T you shoot an arrow into the sun?
You can shoot an arrow at the sun but it won't go into it

Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
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Old 05-06-2004, 03:49 PM   #48
Erik
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Re: Too many aiki-fruities?

Quote:
Nick P. wrote:
Why CAN'T you shoot an arrow into the sun?
It'll cost millions of dollars, and my method of shooting might differ from yours, but this can be done.
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Old 05-06-2004, 04:09 PM   #49
Nick P.
 
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Re: Too many aiki-fruities?

I say we form the "AikiFruity Sun Special Interest Group", and get this project rolling! It's mandate could be to put an arrow into the sun by 2010.
Only small children living in their dreams can become members.
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Old 05-06-2004, 04:21 PM   #50
drDalek
 
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Re: Too many aiki-fruities?

The opinions from several posters that I should stop whining about the other people in class and concentrate on my own training is pretty dumb.

1) I am trying to up the levels of my own training but other people who have been at it for pretty much as long as I have are unwilling to do this.

2) The things I want to improve, like timing, maai, and unbalancing my uke cannot be practiced on my own.

3) My demands are not insane, for example: I once requested one fellow student who is about 3 months less experienced than me to give me a shomenuchi, as fast and hard as he can, with tracking so that I can try and evade it, not do any technique, just get out of the way. I had to stand and negotiate with him for almost 15 minutes before he gave me what I wanted and this from someone who is a "streetfighting legend" (probably in his own mind, he freezes up terribly when it comes to iriminage and "defeats" my technique with almost comical rock-solid rigidity and then wants to lecture me on how to do it right )

Granted I did not evade his first good attack, I had a nicely bruised eyelid for about a week after that but I quickly learned how to get out of the way. The first good attack I did not evade was proof to me that I need to up my training because the usual speed stuff was getting rediculously easy, I was the reincarnation of O-sensei against the usual practice speed we train and this is unacceptable to me.

As I get more experienced I expect the classes to get progressively more complicated and challenging, not easier and easier.

In a way I am probably the biggest aiki-fruitcake ever, you see I honestly, seriously believe this stuff has awesome potential, I want to get as good at it as I possibly can and I truly believe in Aikido, but I temper this zeal with the fact that I refuse to delude myself. This naturally leads to a lot of second guessing but atleast when I am actually finally sure of something I am usually right.
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